Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
49473
Jita Trade and Research Institute
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 11:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
This derivative will give you exposure to the Quantum Microprocessor market.
Units Issued: 5 Billion
Price per unit: 500 Million
Closure date: 2013-08-15
|
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
49473 wrote:This derivative will give you exposure to the Quantum Microprocessor market.
Total Value of units issued: 5 Billion
Price per unit: 500 Million
Closure date: 2013-08-15
You've neglected to outline the terms of the contracts you've offered for sale. I can only assume this was a harmless and inadvertent oversight. |
RAW23
214
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Was it one of your alts who tried the credit rating scheme a few years back? There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
49473
Jita Trade and Research Institute
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hexxx wrote:49473 wrote:This derivative will give you exposure to the Quantum Microprocessor market.
Total Value of units issued: 5 Billion
Price per unit: 500 Million
Closure date: 2013-08-15 You've neglected to outline the terms of the contracts you've offered for sale. I can only assume this was a harmless and inadvertent oversight.
I intended to post as I did, however it is clear that the details of the exposure and derivatives are not sufficient to warrant interest.
The exposure you will be purchasing will be to
Margin trading of: Quantum Microprocessor units
Positions in: Quantum Microprocessor Nonlinear Metamaterials Nanotransistors Phenolic Composites Titanium Carbide
The amount that you receive from purchasing this derivative product is dependent on the performance of the underlying. |
RAW23
214
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Both of these posts are a bit silly. You haven't said anything about how performance will be assessed, what a purchase of 500mil actually buys, and what, if any, security measures are in place. This last is the big one. Are you really asking people to send you unsecured isk on the basis of your OP? There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
49473
Jita Trade and Research Institute
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:Both of these posts are a bit silly. You haven't said anything about how performance will be assessed, what a purchase of 500mil actually buys, and what, if any, security measures are in place. This last is the big one. Are you really asking people to send you unsecured isk on the basis of your OP?
Yes. |
RAW23
214
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
49473 wrote:RAW23 wrote:Both of these posts are a bit silly. You haven't said anything about how performance will be assessed, what a purchase of 500mil actually buys, and what, if any, security measures are in place. This last is the big one. Are you really asking people to send you unsecured isk on the basis of your OP? Yes.
Why? Trolling? There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
49473
Jita Trade and Research Institute
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 15:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:49473 wrote:RAW23 wrote:Both of these posts are a bit silly. You haven't said anything about how performance will be assessed, what a purchase of 500mil actually buys, and what, if any, security measures are in place. This last is the big one. Are you really asking people to send you unsecured isk on the basis of your OP? Yes. Why? Trolling?
No, I am not trolling.
I am interested in producing novel financial products; which by their very nature may appear ambiguous in their initial stages.
|
RAW23
214
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 16:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
49473 wrote:RAW23 wrote:49473 wrote:RAW23 wrote:Both of these posts are a bit silly. You haven't said anything about how performance will be assessed, what a purchase of 500mil actually buys, and what, if any, security measures are in place. This last is the big one. Are you really asking people to send you unsecured isk on the basis of your OP? Yes. Why? Trolling? No, I am not trolling. I am interested in producing novel financial products; which by their very nature may appear ambiguous in their initial stages.
So, you have taken a couple of years off eve and haven't posted on the forums for nearly three years. The one MD project you have undertaken - your credit rating agency - was abandoned after a few weeks and you have no history of completed loans or bonds. You are now asking for 5 billion unsecured on deliberately ambiguous terms according to which purchasers will not know what they are purchasing or the underlying framework for valuing their purchases.
It sounds very much as if you want idiots for investors. If this is meant to be something other than a scam or a troll why would you deliberately leave out so much information that is critical for the kind of risk assessment that any vaguely rational investor will want to undertake? There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
arabella blood
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 16:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:
It sounds very much as if you want idiots for investors.
Yet he uses terms and language that only few will get.
|
|
RAW23
214
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 16:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
arabella blood wrote:RAW23 wrote:
It sounds very much as if you want idiots for investors.
Yet he uses terms and language that only few will get.
I have actually worked a bit with the OP before and from my limited impression he knows his stuff and likes to play/display the technical side of things. This 'offering', however, is frankly bizarre and anyone who invests based on the present information deserves to lose their isk even if they don't. OP is asking for the kind of complete blind faith that is more appropriate for a religious movement than for an investment.
My main worry is that, if this is a scam, people will be taken in by the jargon and start making deals off the board where they can be fleeced repeatedly and in private. There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
arabella blood
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 16:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:arabella blood wrote:RAW23 wrote:
It sounds very much as if you want idiots for investors.
Yet he uses terms and language that only few will get. I have actually worked a bit with the OP before and from my limited impression he knows his stuff and likes to play/display the technical side of things. This 'offering', however, is frankly bizarre and anyone who invests based on the present information deserves to lose their isk even if they don't. OP is asking for the kind of complete blind faith that is more appropriate for a religious movement than for an investment. My main worry is that, if this is a scam, people will be taken in by the jargon and start making deals off the board where they can be fleeced repeatedly and in private.
Can you explain the offer to me? as english isn't my main language i only vaguely understood what it is about. |
RAW23
214
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 16:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
arabella blood wrote:Can you explain the offer to me? as english isn't my main language i only vaguely understood what it is about.
Exactly what he is going to do and how he is going to do it is not at all clear and he is declining opportunities to clarify in favour of deliberate ambiguity. But, in short, my understanding is that he will do something a bit like Block does with BSAC and will take your isk and buy quantity of the mixed basket of goods he has identified. What is opaque is what he will then do with that stock. He could, of course, just sit on it and if it goes up he pays you your capital plus a profit at the end (possibly minus some undisclosed fee) while if it goes down you lose whatever it drops by. There are then various other, more complex things you could do, starting with buying on cyclical downswings and selling on upswings or he may even intend to short sell (somehow). I'm sure that 'derivatives' can cover a multitude of other possibilities that I'm not aware of and that are only poorly understood by real economists (such as those that caused the crash in 2008). (edit: the mention of 'margin trading' is particularly obscure as this could refer to a number of different things)
But the basic meaning of his post is 'You give me isk, I'll do some undisclosed thing somehow connected to quantum microprocessors with it, and then I'll give you back some isk at the end'. What's left out is ... well, everything meaningful. What sort of activities he will be carrying out with your isk, what fees he will charge, what risks he will be willing to take. And all this is on top of the information blackhole around the basic data that is needed to invest: alts, history, NAV etc. There are also unanswered questions about why someone who has been away from the game for years should be trusted with billions on his first day back etc etc etc. It's almost as if he is trying to create an offering that is as uninvestable as possible and see how many morons will fall for it. This is, I think, actually quite a real possibility given that he has been interested in profiling the investment market in the past. There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
arabella blood
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 17:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:arabella blood wrote:Can you explain the offer to me? as english isn't my main language i only vaguely understood what it is about. Exactly what he is going to do and how he is going to do it is not at all clear and he is declining opportunities to clarify in favour of deliberate ambiguity. But, in short, my understanding is that he will do something a bit like Block does with BSAC and will take your isk and buy quantity of the mixed basket of goods he has identified. What is opaque is what he will then do with that stock. He could, of course, just sit on it and if it goes up he pays you your capital plus a profit at the end (possibly minus some undisclosed fee) while if it goes down you lose whatever it drops by. There are then various other, more complex things you could do, starting with buying on cyclical downswings and selling on upswings or he may even intend to short sell (somehow). I'm sure that 'derivatives' can cover a multitude of other possibilities that I'm not aware of and that are only poorly understood by real economists (such as those that caused the crash in 2008). (edit: the mention of 'margin trading' is particularly obscure as this could refer to a number of different things) But the basic meaning of his post is 'You give me isk, I'll do some undisclosed thing somehow connected to quantum microprocessors with it, and then I'll give you back some isk at the end'. What's left out is ... well, everything meaningful. What sort of activities he will be carrying out with your isk, what fees he will charge, what risks he will be willing to take. And all this is on top of the information blackhole around the basic data that is needed to invest: alts, history, NAV etc. There are also unanswered questions about why someone who has been away from the game for years should be trusted with billions on his first day back etc etc etc. It's almost as if he is trying to create an offering that is as uninvestable as possible and see how many morons will fall for it. This is, I think, actually quite a real possibility given that he has been interested in profiling the investment market in the past. Edit: Perhaps he intends to do something with Credit Default Swaps as he threatened to about three years ago: Quote: I am currently working out a way of adapting credit default swaps to Eve IPO/Bonds; both because I think it would be interesting and in an attempt to "put my money where my mouth is".
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1393740-0/page/2#40
Thanks!! much more clear now. What i don't get is why tell us what he gonna do with the money, and not just ask for a loan with collateral...
|
RAW23
215
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 17:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
arabella blood wrote: What i don't get is why tell us what he gonna do with the money, and not just ask for a loan with collateral...
In the absence of better information this is the best I can do.
The answer I got was hexagram 19: Lin or Noble Calling. There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
arabella blood
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 17:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
And all i got was this: http://www.cleverbot.com/j2log-iRqYKxMUCKNRAAKCNAMG-detail |
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
49473 wrote: I intended to post as I did, however it is clear that the details of the exposure and derivatives are not sufficient to warrant interest.
The exposure you will be purchasing will be to
Margin trading of: Quantum Microprocessor units
Positions in: Quantum Microprocessor Nonlinear Metamaterials Nanotransistors Phenolic Composites Titanium Carbide
The amount that you receive from purchasing this derivative product is dependent on the performance of the underlying.
A derivative is a contract that derives value from an underlying commodity/financial instrument - but to do so it's terms MUST be defined for pricing to be possible and risk to be assessed.
I'll make this easier:
- Is it a futures or options contract?
- What underlying commodity does it tie to and at what price point?
- What window of time does the contract cover?
- If it is an options contract, is it a call or a put?
- If it's an options contract, what underlying volume of the commodity does it represent? 1 contract representing 1,000 units of....something? If it's a blend of commodities, again, define the blend.
To think that you could sell a derivative without defining this is...well...the technical term is "crazy". You're basically selling something that no one has any way of determining the value of and then asking them to give you money anyway. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1311
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Incidentally, this fellow convoed my alt after I dumped around eight billion isk worth of quantum micros to his buy orders. He seemed to be unaware of the recent changes they saw in Odyssey. Investing in a market instrument being offered by someone who does not or did not understand the market conditions seems foolish to me, as if there weren't enough other problems with it. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4235
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 23:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
49473 wrote:This derivative will give you exposure to the Quantum Microprocessor market.
Total Value of units issued: 5 Billion
Price per unit: 500 Million
Exposure: Margin trading of: Quantum Microprocessor units
Positions in: Quantum Microprocessor Nonlinear Metamaterials Nanotransistors Phenolic Composites Titanium Carbide
The amount that you receive from purchasing this derivative product is dependent on the performance of the underlying.
Closure date: 2013-08-15
When you sell such a specialistic product, you are selling yourself before the product.
You are selling it poorly imo, you stay away for years and then come in like proposing a derivative is everyday's business and everybody may be trusted to be able and manage it (not even covering the "tiny" possibility of scams in EvE here).
Also please explain how do you mark it to market, how you'll manage open interest, how are you to manage backwardation and contango. How often are you going to update clients' equity (since you talk about margin accounts) and what measures have you put in place to prevent such accounts from going below zero in case of sharp price decline?
So much to explain, but first you should explain why you deal in a Corestwo market without having some thick hairs on the stomach. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 04:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
When you sell such a specialistic product, you are selling yourself before the product.
You are selling it poorly imo, you stay away for years and then come in like proposing a derivative is everyday's business and everybody may be trusted to be able and manage it (not even covering the "tiny" possibility of scams in EvE here).
Also please explain how do you mark it to market, how you'll manage open interest, how are you to manage backwardation and contango. How often are you going to update clients' equity (since you talk about margin accounts) and what measures have you put in place to prevent such accounts from going below zero in case of sharp price decline?
So much to explain, but first you should explain why you deal in a Corestwo market without having some thick hairs on the stomach.
If the equities drop below the value of the margin account, you'd need a third party to be holding assets (client equity) to force the recall of the margin account. He didn't even mention a third party - which you'd need to do margin trading and stay credible.
It's a fun thought exercise but I'm not sure he's done the exercise.
Easiest way to pull this off is to just create a futures exchange and have people write contracts of their own terms. You'd need to purchase the underlying commodities of course, which could be done virtually through deposits of ISK (or minerals) to a central system with prices of commodities updating via buy and sell orders. It's terribly abstract but scalable - then the derivatives could be written on those assets with all the rules enforced by the system the user interacts with. Maybe even allow for mineral withdraws at the major hubs based on customers mineral assets with a handling fee (ok, I'm being greedy).
Before anyone gets excited...this was tried once or twice before. Futures and options contracts are just a bit too exotic to create enough interest to justify the work. |
|
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
216
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 16:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
You people are overlooking the most significant part of this thread: Hexxx is back!
Edit: Ok, technically he was back starting a few days ago: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3319346#post3319346 Still it's nice to see you back!
MDD |
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
157
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 16:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Hexxx wrote:Before anyone gets excited...this was tried once or twice before. Futures and options contracts are just a bit too exotic to create enough interest to justify the work.
I agree with Hexxx. In my experience the vast majority of investors are the buy and hold type. That is one of the reasons bonds and banks are so appealing to investors. Any investment asking a bit more from investors is an uphill venture. If you want your venture to succeed you need to educate your target audience.
Nice to see you alive Hexxx.
|
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 17:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Block Ukx wrote:Hexxx wrote:Before anyone gets excited...this was tried once or twice before. Futures and options contracts are just a bit too exotic to create enough interest to justify the work. I agree with Hexxx. In my experience the vast majority of investors are the buy and hold type. That is one of the reasons bonds and banks are so appealing to investors. Any investment asking a bit more from investors is an uphill venture. If you want your venture to succeed you need to educate your target audience. Nice to see you alive Hexxx.
Nice to be alive.
You're right of course - this is a major plus to running any kind of bank with an interest bearing account. I'd like to see the same simplicity brought to stocks but the tools just aren't there at the moment to make good financial reporting easy to create and easy to read. |
Alex Grison
Grison Industrial Group
524
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 19:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
49473 wrote:This derivative will give you exposure to the Quantum Microprocessor market.
Total Value of units issued: 5 Billion
Price per unit: 500 Million
Exposure: Margin trading of: Quantum Microprocessor units
Positions in: Quantum Microprocessor Nonlinear Metamaterials Nanotransistors Phenolic Composites Titanium Carbide
The amount that you receive from purchasing this derivative product is dependent on the performance of the underlying.
Closure date: 2013-08-15
What kind of thing is this? I am confuse.
Not in all of the days with the Artesians, Atruskans and Thartols have I never seen anything like this. http://www.twitter.com/Alex__Grison |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1337
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 01:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Little update to this dude: He ate about 3.5 million units of Phenolic Composites a good 30% above the even the most optimistic long term estimates of its price.
While he might get lucky and make it out with a small profit, it's just further confirmation that he has no idea what he's doing. You know, in case you were still on the fence. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
49473
Jita Trade and Research Institute
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 21:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
My apologies to everyone for the poor quality of this offering.
mynnna wrote:Little update to this dude: He ate about 3.5 million units of Phenolic Composites a good 30% above the even the most optimistic long term estimates of its price.
While he might get lucky and make it out with a small profit, it's just further confirmation that he has no idea what he's doing. You know, in case you were still on the fence.
It appears that Phenolic Composites have taken an unfortunate turn. I will also add that I asked you previously about Quantum Microprocessors because I am always interested in large market participants. Your tone however, strikes me as rather nasty and unpleasant.
|
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1351
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 01:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
A rather unexpected turn, to be sure. Congratulations on your unexpected luck. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |