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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1185
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 18:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Work Camp Central Control Kihtaled II Khanid Space
15.07.115
Statement:
I would like to thank interested parties for their patience regarding this report, which was much delayed by recent events and by the tempo of my duties in the warzone in Black Rise. As promised I have been repatriating prisoners of war recovered during this time - I would also like to thank the Officers and Shareholders of Pyre Falcon Defence Combine for their forbearance regarding my flagrant breach of company protocol.
I have now concluded my investigation of the workcamps in the Kihtaled system in Khanid space and am ready to make my statement regarding them.
Prisoners of war are processed at the site of capture and their loved ones and state of residence are officially notified. At this point they are then collected in a holding facility until the monthly transfer out of the warzone can be effected. This transfer is carried out be a neutral third-party to minimise the chance of loss of life due to attacks by the FDU on Caldari shipping.
From the warzone prisoners are shipped to the Central Control facility on Kihtaled II where they are inprocessed. This involves a variety of steps including background checks to ensure they are who they claim to be, any legal matters are then resolved. Those found guilty of crimes against one of the four major states are then turned over to the relevant authorities. Finally a full medical workup is given. Prisoners are than classified into four groups, A, B, C and D. Class A workers are cleared for heavy labour, Class B for light labour, Class C are deemed to need rest and treatment in the camp's medical facility before being cleared to work and Class D require major offsite medical treatment. Often Class D prisoners are made stable, fit to travel, and remanded to their home authorities for medical treatment, palliative care or whatever is suitable.
Once classified, prisoners are shipped to the surface of Kihtaled II, were they are assigned to living quarters within the camp. There is a short period of induction and then the prisoners are assigned to work details, as appropriate. Whilst some light industry and processing is done at satellite camps, most of the Class A work is in the Heavy Minerals sector. Prisoners assigned to these details are cared for by the Khanid companies that own these facilities and are accompanied by a camp liason to ensure that all details are correct.
Class A work makes up roughly 74% of the labour contracts. Work details are assigned to a contract for a period of not more than six months and then rotated back to the central facility for assessment. If required a prisoner can then be medically reclassified and, in any case, will be assigned to a different work detail and a different labour contract.
Income from the labour contracts is used to defray the costs of this system. In it's start up period it mitigates the many expenses, but it is projected that an income surplus might be shown once the start up costs are amortised in another four months.
I have examined the medical facilities and can report that they are adequate for their need. All non-elective medical needs are fully covered including dental, sight correction and other similar categories of medical treatment. I have examined the living quarters - at the main camp, satellite camps and offsite Khanid owned facilities. Surprise, surprise - the focus is on security and not on comfort. That said, the facilities are clean, well maintained and allow a reasonable degree of comfort. I've stayed in worse.
Prisoners are NEVER left in sole charge of local authorities. Prisoners are released at the discretion of Pyre Falcon and are usually exchanged for State Protectorate or Caldari State citizen prisoners on a one for one basis in chronological order of internment.
The only case in which a Prisoner of War would end up sold into slavery would be if they had commited some egregious offence in the Khanid Kingdom or the Amarrian Empire that warranted such a punishment. These prisoners are remanded to those authorities as soon after internment as is possible - the same way that criminals wanted in Federation, State and Republic space are.
I remain available for questions should someone want to clear up any details I missed, but I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. |

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
200
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 18:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
So now the State turns to slavery to 'offset' costs of a system that was not needed.
Shocking.
I suppose it was only a matter of time. |

Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
245
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 18:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:So now the State turns to slavery to 'offset' costs of a system that was not needed.
Shocking.
I suppose it was only a matter of time.
Are work camps for prisoners of war considered slavery? Then every empire is guilty of it. |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1185
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 18:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:So now the State turns to slavery to 'offset' costs of a system that was not needed.
Shocking.
I suppose it was only a matter of time.
I did say I would answer any questions, but I hoped they would be ones arising from my report and not regarding matters adequately covered within it.
"The only case in which a Prisoner of War would end up sold into slavery would be if they had commited some egregious offence in the Khanid Kingdom or the Amarrian Empire that warranted such a punishment. These prisoners are remanded to those authorities as soon after internment as is possible - the same way that criminals wanted in Federation, State and Republic space are."
|

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
200
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 18:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Tali Ambraelle wrote:So now the State turns to slavery to 'offset' costs of a system that was not needed.
Shocking.
I suppose it was only a matter of time. Are work camps for prisoners of war considered slavery? Then every empire is guilty of it.
And how many out source such camps to an entity known for its slave trade? Save your holier than thou attitude for those who care, slaver.
It is what it is, even other Caldari have said as much. PYRE are now naught but legal loop hole slavers.
And say what you will Civire. You are what you are. |

Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
242
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 18:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:So now the State turns to slavery to 'offset' costs of a system that was not needed.
Shocking.
I suppose it was only a matter of time.
Do you think the Villore Accords give tea and cake to their prisoners of war? That they chuckle over the lives lost, slip a few ISK in the prisoner's pocket, and send them home so that the enemy force can debrief them and reassign them to new warships? |

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
200
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Tali Ambraelle wrote:So now the State turns to slavery to 'offset' costs of a system that was not needed.
Shocking.
I suppose it was only a matter of time. Do you think the Villore Accords give tea and cake to their prisoners of war? That they chuckle over the lives lost, slip a few ISK in the prisoner's pocket, and send them home so that the enemy force can debrief them and reassign them to new warships?
The opinion of a Sansha matters in this because...? |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1185
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Because she has a point.
Don't like the internment system? Exchange any POWs you take in a timely matter and your men will be back with you very shortly. Drag your heels and I guess they will at least be retrained into the mining industry - skills they can put to work when they DO get home. |

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
200
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Because she has a point.
Don't like the internment system? Exchange any POWs you take in a timely matter and your men will be back with you very shortly. Drag your heels and I guess they will at least be retrained into the mining industry - skills they can put to work when they DO get home.
And you feel a need to do this by giving them to slaver filth as opposed to keeping them in your own camps? Keeping them within State borders as POWs would make clear sense and I would not even bother commenting on the subject if this were the case, as that is how war plays out.
However, your 'investors' seem to enjoy the idea of making the Minmatar and Gallente squirm by giving POWs to slavers and attacking both Empire's morale as opposed to keeping them in the State, which would logically be more efficient.
How interesting, slavers AND sadists. |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1185
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Given the current instabilities in the State, I would have thought not having large populations of POWs at risk to reprisals was a plus point of the plan.
Work is work. Does it really matter who it's done for? As it happens, State industries tend to be highly automated, requiring a longer skilling-up period before a prisoner is productive. This work is physical and simple and provided the prisoner is healthy, it takes him virtually no time at all to learn to do.
Is it our fault that the Khanid Kingdom currently has the largest need for physical labour? That the labour market there is deemed as the most profitable for the start-up costs?
And really, just because they are working within the territory of a political entity that employs slavery for cultural reasons, does that mean they magically become 'slaves' as a result? No. They are Prisoners of War, performing work in order to cover the costs of their care and feeding.
Honestly, if they were contractors of any other sort, would you call them slaves? |

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
200
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Given the current instabilities in the State, I would have thought not having large populations of POWs at risk to reprisals was a plus point of the plan. And why was the initial policy of simply returning POWs to their home should they not be wanted criminals not effective in solving this? It set a good example. Oh well.
Quote:Work is work. Does it really matter who it's done for? As it happens, State industries tend to be highly automated, requiring a longer skilling-up period before a prisoner is productive. This work is physical and simple and provided the prisoner is healthy, it takes him virtually no time at all to learn to do. It does tend to matter when slavers treat people as animals and not people. I wouldn't be surprised if regular 'medical examines' were soon brought up to ensure the POWs obtained regular doses of 'vitamins.'
Quote:Is it our fault that the Khanid Kingdom currently has the largest need for physical labour? That the labour market there is deemed as the most profitable for the start-up costs? No, it's your fault for starting this shame of a policy and denying what it is. Slavery.
Quote:And really, just because they are working within the territory of a political entity that employs slavery for cultural reasons, does that mean they magically become 'slaves' as a result? No. They are Prisoners of War, performing work in order to cover the costs of their care and feeding. Honestly, if they were contractors of any other sort, would you call them slaves? No, because POWs are not out sourced. As I said, it appears your shareholders have a sadistic streak. Defend it all you want, others will see through it, and continue to see through it.
Of course, I expect your CEO Veikitaamo to show up and spin her usual PR CYA story with her generous application of legalese to prevent this from being labeled as it truly is because, if the contract is legal, SURELY it isn't slavery. But still, it is what it is.
PYRE are now slavers. No contract language or spouted excuse will change that.
|

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1036
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thank you for the transparency. I'm glad to see such upright behaviour, and hope that it inspires Federal and Republican militia parties to follow suit. |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1189
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
It is if you define slaver as 'something in the Empire that outrages me' as opposed to any legal or factual definition of the word.
To be honest it seems that our policy of simply sending all POWS back home as expeditiously as possible was very wrong-headed since you now seem to view it not as an incredibly magnaminous act, but rather as something you are entitled to. It was a generous policy, one unmatched by any of the of the other organisations within the warzone and it is not surprising that our shareholders feel that captured prisoners of war now ought to be held until exchanged for Caldari crew.
Given the small size of Pyre Falcon and the disproportionately large number of POWs we pluck from space during the course of our legal duties, it ought not to be surprising that our share holders are unwilling to eat the costs for caring and feeding of enemy combatants.
You can call that Slavery if you want. I've been there. I've toured the camps.
All prisoners are held according to STATE law, as is their right. They are repatriated as soon as we can arrange an exchange with similar Caldari prisoners. |

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
205
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:It is if you define slaver as 'something in the Empire that outrages me' as opposed to any legal or factual definition of the word. So slaver and hypocrite. Lovely.
Quote:To be honest it seems that our policy of simply sending all POWS back home as expeditiously as possible was very wrong-headed since you now seem to view it not as an incredibly magnaminous act, but rather as something you are entitled to. It was a generous policy, one unmatched by any of the of the other organisations within the warzone and it is not surprising that our shareholders feel that captured prisoners of war now ought to be held until exchanged for Caldari crew. Or, if you were capable of reading, you would have seen that I said it was a good example of a policy earlier on. When I first heard about it, it was my hope that those in the Federal Navy and political sphere would take note of these good deeds and perhaps return the favor. But that WAS my hope. But please, keep blaming me for obviously false short comings.
Quote:Given the small size of Pyre Falcon and the disproportionately large number of POWs we pluck from space during the course of our legal duties, it ought not to be surprising that our share holders are unwilling to eat the costs for caring and feeding of enemy combatants. So instead of not feeding them and simply sending them back, they decide to put them through the rounds with slavers.
Quote:You can call that Slavery if you want. I've been there. I've toured the camps. Your definitions of acceptable and others' definition may not be the same. Also, you are not exactly an independent third party, who's investigation would not be biased.
I won't bother arguing with you anymore. You are what you are. I'm now not surprised so many Matari in the labs use Pyre as a new form of curse and slur. It seems fitting.
Good day. |

Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
245
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Given the current instabilities in the State, I would have thought not having large populations of POWs at risk to reprisals was a plus point of the plan. And why was the initial policy of simply returning POWs to their home should they not be wanted criminals not effective in solving this? It set a good example. Oh well.
This would have been foolishness of great magnitude. You do not return captured soldiers to their home country where they can take up arms and fight you again.
|

Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
647
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Regrettably, Ms. Ambraelle, when Federal Navy personnel are put on the line, both the Federation and the personnel tacitly accept that they may be captured or killed in the course of duty. This treatment -- while not utopian, as you seem to think it should be -- meets the humanitarian requirements of the law, without putting undue burden on the State.
As you said, you'd hoped that the Combine's policy of immediate repatriation would be reciprocated by the Federal Navy and its auxiliaries.
It has not been.
The only real choice here is to lobby the Federation for a diplomatic resolution of the POW situation involving a mutual repatriation of POWs, or to withdraw naval personnel from the combat zone. I doubt you'll find either choice workable. |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1189
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
These are Caldari built facilities. They are staffed by Caldari or Caldari trained staff. They operate according to Caldari State law, with whatever accomodations have to be made to comply with Kingdom legislation.
They do work for Khanid clients whilst they're waiting for exchange and repatriation.
But don't let facts get in the way of outrage. The previous policy was championed by myself, so I'm hardly pre-disposed to cheer at it's repudiation. It's interesting to note that not ONE SINGLE FDU ENTITY matched it. Not one. Neither did ONE SINGLE TLF ENTITY match it when we were briefly deployed on the Amarr front.
I personally commited to undertaking these inspections because of the misgivings people I respect had about this policy. I have performed my investigation, I have given my report. |

Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
203
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle would Appear to be a Propaganda Mouthpiece for some Other Person, employed to distribute the Other Person's Views, without revealing the Identity of the Other Person.
Thus, as an IGS Puppet, their Words are of approximate value = 0. |

Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
246
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:The only real choice here is to lobby the Federation for a diplomatic resolution of the POW situation involving a mutual repatriation of POWs...
A mutual repatriation would simply result in both sides refusing to take prisoners at all, because that would be the only way to ensure those prisoners don't get rearmed and put into the fight again. |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
2613
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 19:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Synthetic Cultist wrote:Tali Ambraelle would Appear to be a Propaganda Mouthpiece for some Other Person, employed to distribute the Other Person's Views, without revealing the Identity of the Other Person.
Thus, as an IGS Puppet, their Words are of approximate value = 0.
But this never happens! Ever! You think someone would do that? Just pay another to rant on the IGS and..post propaganda?
DISCLAIMER: I am pouring the sarcasm hard on this post in case anyone missed it.
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Lucas Raholan
Agenda Industries
85
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ms Ambraelle..if you feel that Pyre are enslaving their POW's may I cordially invite you to the Amarr Empire where I can show you real Slavery...I assure you it will far worse then how they are treated under Pyres watch.
The reason their handing a few over to the Khanid is not because they wish for them to be enslaved. if you had actually read the Report you would know that they are wanted criminals in the Kingdom and under law Pyre is required to hand them over.
I suggest you sit you're Tests again and read some books on the Politics and culture of the Empires before connecting to this feed again I'm secretly a unicorn that Sh**ts fairy dust and sings all day-á |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
2613
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lucas Raholan wrote:The reason their handing a few over to the Khanid is not because they wish for them to be enslaved. if you had actually read the Report you would know that they are wanted criminals in the Kingdom and under law Pyre is required to hand them over.
That's a few though. Or by few do you mean any going to Khanid? Cause if you can source that, it'd shut just about everyone up (thankfully).
|

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1189
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
Only POWs with legitimate warrants out for crimes against the Kingdom are handed over to Khanid authorities. |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
2613
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Only POWs with legitimate warrants out for crimes against the Kingdom are handed over to Khanid authorities.
And the rest of the POWs?
|

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1191
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Only POWs with legitimate warrants out for crimes against the Kingdom are handed over to Khanid authorities. And the rest of the POWs?
They're held in the system I described in my report until such time as they can be exchanged for Caldari prisoners. Or until hostilities end - which would be the better solution. |

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
495
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:So now the State turns to slavery to 'offset' costs of a system that was not needed.
Shocking.
I suppose it was only a matter of time. Slavery is against the law in the State. However, gallentean swines used to call slavery whatever they don't understand, just to attack and kill Caldari citizens. And this is why the Federation must be destroyed.
Show them no mercy! |

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
761
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
While I appreciate the transparency, an agent of Pyre telling me how well Pyre treats its POWs isn't as meaningful as a non-affiliated, or even a Republic or Federation affiliated, person telling me the same. Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's. |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
2613
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Anslo wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Only POWs with legitimate warrants out for crimes against the Kingdom are handed over to Khanid authorities. And the rest of the POWs? They're held in the system I described in my report until such time as they can be exchanged for Caldari prisoners. Or until hostilities end - which would be the better solution.
And there you have it folks, facts from the source without Ad hominem!
Next time on Questions and Courtesy with Anslo, we learn how to ask for the time WITHOUT insulting someone's familial heritage!
Tune in and see you all next week folks!
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1191
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Makkal Hanaya wrote:While I appreciate the transparency, an agent of Pyre telling me how well Pyre treats its POWs isn't as meaningful as a non-affiliated, or even a Republic or Federation affiliated, person telling me the same.
I don't see how I could deliver the report I promised in any way other than as an agent of Pyre.
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Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1037
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 20:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Makkal Hanaya wrote:While I appreciate the transparency, an agent of Pyre telling me how well Pyre treats its POWs isn't as meaningful as a non-affiliated, or even a Republic or Federation affiliated, person telling me the same. I don't see how I could deliver the report I promised in any way other than as an agent of Pyre. Perhaps you could offer a tour to an uninterested third party? That would be the best way to clear this unfortunate allegation. |
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