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Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
35
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Posted - 2011.10.25 16:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Assuming both pilots are reasonably skilled and have a equivelent amount of SP ? I'm just wondering as I'm still very low on SP geared for pvp and I'm wondering if it's possible to win against assault ships at all while flying a T1 ship. And I'm not talking fitting deadspace and faction or officer loot to a T1 ship, just regular old T2 items and faction ammo vs assault ship with same grade fittings. I find most often I die is when I get jumped by pilots with far superior gear. In part this is piloting error from me and inpart this is the huge disparity in performance.
Daredevil vs T1 frig or Wolf vs Tristan or 2x T3 Cruiser vs me a T1 cruiser.
So wolf or jaguar vs T1 ship - any chance of the T1 winning ? |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
57
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 16:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's possible, but unlikely. It depends a lot on how the two ships are set up and how skilled the other pilot is at PvP.
As with everything in Eve, insure your ship and go for it, have some fun and learn from your deaths (they teach you more than your victories). |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
96
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 16:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
As with everything in eve..
player skill>fitting>sp
so no, if both players are equally skilled, in well fit ships, most times the t2 will win. But if the skill of the t1 pilot> the skill of the t2 pilot (which if you stick with it, practice hard and learn how the t2 ships fight IMO you won't take long to be better then most t2 pilots) then there is a decent chance of winning.
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
12
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Posted - 2011.10.25 17:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Assuming both pilots are reasonably skilled and have a equivelent amount of SP ? I'm just wondering as I'm still very low on SP geared for pvp and I'm wondering if it's possible to win against assault ships at all while flying a T1 ship. And I'm not talking fitting deadspace and faction or officer loot to a T1 ship, just regular old T2 items and faction ammo vs assault ship with same grade fittings. I find most often I die is when I get jumped by pilots with far superior gear. In part this is piloting error from me and inpart this is the huge disparity in performance.
Daredevil vs T1 frig or Wolf vs Tristan or 2x T3 Cruiser vs me a T1 cruiser.
So wolf or jaguar vs T1 ship - any chance of the T1 winning ?
what talliana said is pretty spot on
DD vs t1 frig, I have seen it happen
Wolf vs trisan, haven't seen it, but i could imagine it happening.
2x t3 vs t1. Unless they they are missioning, ret*rded or are afk i see no way this would ever EVER happen |
Kush Monster
Big Tobacco
DUST ALLIANCE
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 17:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
depends on the frig... a T1 Dramiel with a competent pilot can beat nearly any t2 |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
100
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 17:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Karl Planck wrote:Zoe Alarhun wrote:Assuming both pilots are reasonably skilled and have a equivelent amount of SP ? I'm just wondering as I'm still very low on SP geared for pvp and I'm wondering if it's possible to win against assault ships at all while flying a T1 ship. And I'm not talking fitting deadspace and faction or officer loot to a T1 ship, just regular old T2 items and faction ammo vs assault ship with same grade fittings. I find most often I die is when I get jumped by pilots with far superior gear. In part this is piloting error from me and inpart this is the huge disparity in performance.
Daredevil vs T1 frig or Wolf vs Tristan or 2x T3 Cruiser vs me a T1 cruiser.
So wolf or jaguar vs T1 ship - any chance of the T1 winning ? what talliana said is pretty spot on DD vs t1 frig, I have seen it happen Wolf vs trisan, haven't seen it, but i could imagine it happening. 2x t3 vs t1. Unless they they are missioning, ret*rded or are afk i see no way this would ever EVER happen
Im pretty sure those were examples of what he/she/it had been encountering. Or i would hope so.
i answered based on the assumption they were talking only the second example of wolf/jag V t1
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
100
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 17:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kush Monster wrote:depends on the frig... a T1 Dramiel with a competent pilot can beat nearly any t2
Pirate =/= t1
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
Goose99
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:As with everything in eve..
player skill>fitting>sp
so no, if both players are equally skilled, in well fit ships, most times the t2 will win. But if the skill of the t1 pilot> the skill of the t2 pilot (which if you stick with it, practice hard and learn how the t2 ships fight IMO you won't take long to be better then most t2 pilots) then there is a decent chance of winning.
Karl Planck wrote:Zoe Alarhun wrote:Assuming both pilots are reasonably skilled and have a equivelent amount of SP ? I'm just wondering as I'm still very low on SP geared for pvp and I'm wondering if it's possible to win against assault ships at all while flying a T1 ship. And I'm not talking fitting deadspace and faction or officer loot to a T1 ship, just regular old T2 items and faction ammo vs assault ship with same grade fittings. I find most often I die is when I get jumped by pilots with far superior gear. In part this is piloting error from me and inpart this is the huge disparity in performance.
Daredevil vs T1 frig or Wolf vs Tristan or 2x T3 Cruiser vs me a T1 cruiser.
So wolf or jaguar vs T1 ship - any chance of the T1 winning ? what talliana said is pretty spot on DD vs t1 frig, I have seen it happen Wolf vs trisan, haven't seen it, but i could imagine it happening. 2x t3 vs t1. Unless they they are missioning, ret*rded or are afk i see no way this would ever EVER happen
It actually complete misses the mark. If you pop a superior ship with superior fitting and superior SP, it has nothing to do with you being good, and everything to do with the other person sucking and making a mistake. Eve is a spreadsheet combat sim game, not a twitch shooter. There's no manual control. Assuming the other party is minimally competent and not make mistakes, the spreadsheet stats will show and there's nothing you can do no matter how "good" you are. |
YesI'mWatching
Cool4Cats
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
For a T1 frig (not faction) to kill a PVP fit AF normally requires the AF pilot to be incompetant at either fitting or piloting, both is preferred.
killed faction frigs and buckets full of ceptors and bombers with vigils and similar, but i can't remember the last time I killed an AF with a T1 frig, I've tried moe times than i probably should have :) , get in a ruppie.......... |
Taron Naskingar
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.10.25 20:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
From least to greatest
T1 - Navy - T2 - Faction
You cant kill the assult ship pilot unless he is crap or uou are just ubberly fit with implants ans officer gear
Ships like the vengeance ishkur or jaguar will almost never lose to a t1 and dramiels cruors and daredevils are not t1s |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
187
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 21:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
It really depends on your setup. I've seen AF fits that didn't have the range to take on some of the T1 kiting fits that are out there.
Most of the time, you'll die a glorious death. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
30
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Posted - 2011.10.25 21:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:It actually complete misses the mark. If you pop a superior ship with superior fitting and superior SP, it has nothing to do with you being good, and everything to do with the other person sucking and making a mistake. Eve is a spreadsheet combat sim game, not a twitch shooter. There's no manual control. Assuming the other party is minimally competent and not make mistakes, the spreadsheet stats will show and there's nothing you can do no matter how "good" you are.
I don't think you know what your talking about.......
Superior ship or fitting: How exactly do you quantifiy superior in eve. Situtuations change and opponents change, so while some fits might be superior for an exact formulaic situation, the situtations you find yourself in are not so exact. Different shps have different roles, different weaknesses, and different strengths. When flying around, there are too many exterior factors to catagorically declare superior fittings and superior ships.
Eve is not a twitch game, so skill in that sense is not applicable. Skill in eve relates to applying your knowledge and manipulating your ship to give you an advantage. This is done at the fitting screen, this is done in setting up combat, and this is done during combat. Being good has EVERYTHING to do with applying your knowledge and controlling your ship. If you don't consider that skill, your ignorant.
I've killed many, many inties and the occassional AF's with t1 frigates... although its typically not easy to kill an AF. In particular, I've killed enyos (easy) and ishkurs (difficult) with standard fit rifters. They are NOT short fights (60-120s), and often backup will arrive and you'lI have to GTFO before finishing them off. I'm positive I could gank most harpies too, but they just aren't out and about much. The trick is keep out of blaster range and kill them with barrage. With ishkurs, you have to kill the drones first. Rail merlins and tristans should also win against blaster harpies and enyos, but rails will have a very hard time against ishkur drones. The Rail Merlin and Tristans are also very good against mwd-fit inties.
I'm pretty sure I can special fit a tristan/merlin/rifter to kill a standard fit wolf or retribution... but it would be a very close fight (50% chance of winning), and I would have to start the engagement at zero.
The repping ability of a vengence or hawk makes killing them with a t1 frigate very difficult.
Range control is a key aspect to winning most of the fights above. Most faction frigates have bonus' that either allow them to control range, or other bonuses that make range control ineffective. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
25
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Posted - 2011.10.26 03:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
"because of rifter" |
Mara Abraham
The Tuskers
31
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Posted - 2011.10.26 03:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Good day:
A number of my corp mates have taken down af's in t1, non faction frigates; and I've taken out interceptors in a rifter.
It comes down to pilot skill, fittings, and the willingness to engage.
Thank you.
--- Mara Abraham
* http://www.factionalwarfare.info/
* http://evepiratelife.com/ |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
104
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 03:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:As with everything in eve..
player skill>fitting>sp
so no, if both players are equally skilled, in well fit ships, most times the t2 will win. But if the skill of the t1 pilot> the skill of the t2 pilot (which if you stick with it, practice hard and learn how the t2 ships fight IMO you won't take long to be better then most t2 pilots) then there is a decent chance of winning.
Karl Planck wrote:Zoe Alarhun wrote:Assuming both pilots are reasonably skilled and have a equivelent amount of SP ? I'm just wondering as I'm still very low on SP geared for pvp and I'm wondering if it's possible to win against assault ships at all while flying a T1 ship. And I'm not talking fitting deadspace and faction or officer loot to a T1 ship, just regular old T2 items and faction ammo vs assault ship with same grade fittings. I find most often I die is when I get jumped by pilots with far superior gear. In part this is piloting error from me and inpart this is the huge disparity in performance.
Daredevil vs T1 frig or Wolf vs Tristan or 2x T3 Cruiser vs me a T1 cruiser.
So wolf or jaguar vs T1 ship - any chance of the T1 winning ? what talliana said is pretty spot on DD vs t1 frig, I have seen it happen Wolf vs trisan, haven't seen it, but i could imagine it happening. 2x t3 vs t1. Unless they they are missioning, ret*rded or are afk i see no way this would ever EVER happen It actually complete misses the mark. If you pop a superior ship with superior fitting and superior SP, it has nothing to do with you being good, and everything to do with the other person sucking and making a mistake. Eve is a spreadsheet combat sim game, not a twitch shooter. There's no manual control. Assuming the other party is minimally competent and not make mistakes, the spreadsheet stats will show and there's nothing you can do no matter how "good" you are.
Learn to frig pilot.
If you aren't manually piloting, you're doing it wrong. So I stand by my original comment Player skill (Knowing how to manage cap, manually piloting, overheating, predicting what other pilots are going to do) > Fitting (wellfit as opposed to lolfit) > SP (90m indie vs 15m Pure PvP who do you think will win)
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
104
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 04:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
P.S
Whenever small fleet warfare is being discussed, always listen to the tusker
:)
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
cyka776
6
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Posted - 2011.10.26 09:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
its not easy to kill most t2 or faction frigs in a t1 frig...possible but not easy
Its not hard to kill most t2 or faction frigs in a t1 cruiser...if you fit it for the job |
Unimaginative Guy
Dutch Squad
Chained Reactions
1
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Posted - 2011.10.26 11:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Id reckon it would be extremely difficult, near impossible for a T1 frigate to take down a ACTIVE TANKED assault ship. My vengeance can almost tank a rifter's dps... |
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
36
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 11:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:P.S
Whenever small fleet warfare is being discussed, always listen to the tusker
:)
You listen to Abney Park ?
Lots of replies in this thread. Thanks everyone. |
Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
107
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 13:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:It really depends on your setup. I've seen AF fits that didn't have the range to take on some of the T1 kiting fits that are out there.
Most of the time, you'll die a glorious death.
This is quite true. Proof of concept:
http://y0ink.us/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15911
That was a situation where one of our more skillful pilots manage to keep the blaster boat at range and pummel him with T2 rockets. Note that the Merlin in question only had a pair of T2 rockets, no guns at all (salvager). Does that mean that the Ishkur pilot is terri-bad? Not necessarily. He made a couple of minor mistakes and then simply couldn't catch the kiting Merlin who happened to win the webbing game. Frigate-on-frigate action doesn't leave much room for mistakes and if you're blaster fit, you've really got to get in face melting range or die as the other guy kites you.
Recruiting is OPEN
Please join our public channel The Ninja Dojo for more info |
Kitty McKitty
In Praise Of Shadows
529
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 17:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
It's simply a matter of having a fit that can counter theirs. The main element of player skill is knowing how ships are generally fitted.
First time I tried a Merlin I got the perfect opportunity after 2 jumps :S http://i.imgur.com/YZOgY.jpg
GÖÑ Haviing your portrait painted here helps INTAKI Disabled Children GÖÑ |
Jude Lloyd
Heretic Army
150
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 19:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
A rifter can kill a wolf or a jag without a web. A merlin can tank the dps incoming from some AF's.
Heretic Army CEO
Host of Frigfry Fridays
|
Dibblerette
East India Ore Trade
Apocalypse Now.
1
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Posted - 2011.10.27 01:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jude Lloyd wrote:A rifter can kill a wolf or a jag without a web. A merlin can tank the dps incoming from some AF's.
Don't mess with this guy's Merlins. They're serious business. That said, I have (on my alt) killed a Daredevil with a Merlin. The key is to stay out of the oh-so-terrifying Blasters grasp. If you land at 20, overheat web and slow him down before he gets the 90% web on you, you could possibly burn him down before he can crawl close enough to melt you. With the rail buff coming, this might be a bit easier, I ended up using Gatling Pulse Lasers with scorch. Odd, but effective. |
Taurean Eltanin
The Tuskers
8
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Posted - 2011.10.27 10:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
The answer is "it depends".
If the AF is active tanked, the answer is almost always "no". I've not yet met a T1 frig that could break the active tank on my Vengeance, for example.
If we assume the AF is not active tanked, the T1 needs to evade the AF's superior firepower while whittling away at the AF's superior tank. This means defeating either the tracking or range of the AF. Again, this is not always possible; my Vengeance can hit out to 15km and is tracking independent, for example.
So, a T1 can take on an AF if:
- the AF is not active tanked
- the T1 can control the range
- the T1 can defeat either the tracking or range of the AF
So, a Rifter with a web or tracking disruptor would probably have a decent shot at a Wolf, especially if it was not fitting tracking rigs/mods. That same Rifter might have a shot at an Ishkur, if it could kill the drones fast enough (although most Ishkurs are active tanked).
http://flight-of-dragons.blogspot.com/ |
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
41
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 10:52:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hey Taurean - was in Tuskers HQ the other night ^_^
Thanks, I guess I'll not worry about not being able to take T2's for now. I'll be content with being able to solo most T1 ships with 70% chance to win. |
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
16
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Posted - 2011.10.27 11:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
A fair few AFs have weaknesses you can exploit in a T1 rifter, namely:
Enyo - Range and range control (no web)
Wolf - Tracking (with 200mms at least, not so with 125/150mm or if they have drop, which is fairly rare)
Retribution - Tracking
Ishkurs - Reliance on drones GENERALLY means you can keep them at range and go through their drones if you have a decent buffer tank along the lines of a Merlin
Saying that, I struggle to see a T1 frigate killing a competently fit Hawk or Vengeance - there's no way you can mitigate their DPS and both of them have pretty mean tanks, as well as fitting "full tackle".
In the end, I would say that piloting skill factors in more heavily than anything else - it is quite common to run into lackluster pilots and even compotent pilots are fairly rare. I can count on one hand the number of pilots who I consider being credible threats to me 1vs1 for example, just due to piloting skill. |
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
41
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 11:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
Well I'll start skilling up for some delicious T2 ships soon. (once I've satisfied my stealth bomber craving). Then It's down to learning a new class of ships all over again. (industrialists rejoice). |
Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 21:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
As several people have already said, if you have the pilot/player skill - yes, it's possible - but you do need to be well skilled in small ship pvp and you need your opponent to be worse at it than you .
That's a lot of "ifs" so.....generally speaking, no, it's not possible - all things being (approx.) equal T2 will win against T1.
The exceptions to this are T1 faction ships which are sometimes as/more dangerous than T2 ships of the same class because of their special ship bonuses, EHP, speed etc (The Dramiel is currently the most popular example of this.)
In general, T1 ships do well against T2 ships one class lower. So T1 Frigs do well against Inties, T1 Cruisers do well against Assault Frigs and T1 BC do well against HACs (at close range anyway - long range is another story). |
Clarina Kusoni
Three 6 MaFiA
Dark Phoenix Rising.
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 22:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Like everyone else has been saying, it depends on player skill, fitting, and trained skills (separate from player skill, of course). I'd expect a well-fit T1 to lose to a well-fit T2, but if the T2's lacking in one or more of the above aspects, you just might have a kill.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13891938 <-- an example of how a crapfit can outweigh advantages granted by higher SP |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
111
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 01:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Love how the people that say piloting skill has no effect dissapear when the tuskers start posting.
Bet this happens in local to them as well :P
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
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