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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:47:00 -
[151] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Tippia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I love your audacity in saying lag removes lag. Good thing that I didn't, then. Yes, you did. Word for word. "TiDi is a way to remove that lag." So in other words, I didn't say that. Especially not word for word. Rather, I said that TiDi is a way to remove the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly. Quote:Yes. Server TiDi is lag for the client. No. Server TiDi is synchronised with client TiDi, which is a slowdown of the world simulation.
Lag is lag, so yes, you did.
And the game does not create client TiDi, because my mouse and keystrokes still work in real time, not dilated time. The processing time in the command queue of the server is what is dilated, thus creating the "lag" the clients suffer from when trying to apply reactionary commands to ingame actions. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:49:00 -
[152] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yes I have.
No you didn't.
What is the idea solution for running over the bandwidth of the I/O AND in concurrently driving your processing resources well beyond what they are capable of.
What is the "standard" that you used to call CCPs middleware substandard. To be substandard there was to be an accepted standard first.
Murk Paradox wrote:Maximillian German wrote:so tell me Murk, what is your solution? If we're all running away from the problem, then where is your answer? The answer to what? I am not saying I know more than CCP, I just recognize the fact that time dilation is lag created by the server to make sure the # of disconnects are reduced. You are the one/s trying to troll a response because of the lack of understanding, not me =)
......our lack of understanding when you can't use basic terms relating to computer operation. |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:53:00 -
[153] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
And you say people responded differently to these events? Hard to imagineGǪ Meanwhile, TiDi is a true remedy to lag. The problem you're having is that you're confusing GǣslowGǥ with GǣlaggyGǥ.
Tippia, are you aware of what lag means? I don't think you do.
TiDi is not the answer to lag, its the answer to disconnects. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:55:00 -
[154] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Yes I have.
No you didn't. What is the idea solution for running over the bandwidth of the I/O AND in concurrently driving your processing resources well beyond what they are capable of. What is the "standard" that you used to call CCPs middleware substandard. To be substandard there was to be an accepted standard first. Murk Paradox wrote:Maximillian German wrote:so tell me Murk, what is your solution? If we're all running away from the problem, then where is your answer? The answer to what? I am not saying I know more than CCP, I just recognize the fact that time dilation is lag created by the server to make sure the # of disconnects are reduced. You are the one/s trying to troll a response because of the lack of understanding, not me =) ......our lack of understanding when you can't use basic terms relating to computer operation.
Oh, the standard is once I click a command or a module, I should be able to see that result in a timely manner. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15829
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:55:00 -
[155] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Lag is lag, so yes, you did. GǪexcept that GÇö as the very quote you yourself used show, I didn't say that lag removes lag, especially not word for word. Rather, I said that TiDi is a way to remove the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly. You really shouldn't try to alter what I've said unless you have mod powers and can go into my posts and remove the evidence that you're wrong, you knowGǪ
Quote:And the game does not create client TiDi The client TiDi is synched with the server TiDi GÇö you know, the central authority that runs the game? So yes, the game creates that client TiDi so that the client world simulation runs at the same pace as the server world simulation.
Quote:my mouse and keystrokes GǪare not part of the world simulation.
Ok. So what other MMO allows 4000+ client battles in real time? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:55:00 -
[156] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia, are you aware of what lag means? I don't think you do.
Oh Hell no. I want to hear you explain what lag actually is. Because I'm certain that Tippia does, and I'm also certain that you haven't a clue.
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:56:00 -
[157] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
......our lack of understanding when you can't use basic terms relating to computer operation.
When I can't? Of course I can.
The whole point when you educate someone, is to use their terms in a manner they can understand.
Such as time dilation being lag.
Not sure why you think that affected packet latency is as a term has anything to do with time dilation not being lag.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:58:00 -
[158] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Onictus wrote:
......our lack of understanding when you can't use basic terms relating to computer operation.
When I can't? Of course I can. The whole point when you educate someone, is to use their terms in a manner they can understand. Such as time dilation being lag. Not sure why you think that affected packet latency is as a term has anything to do with time dilation not being lag.
No try again (pro tip: I already posted it once) |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15829
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:59:00 -
[159] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:When I can't? Of course I can. So why don't you?
Quote:Such as time dilation being lag. By what definition? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:03:00 -
[160] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia, are you aware of what lag means? I don't think you do.
Oh Hell no. I want to hear you explain what lag actually is. Because I'm certain that Tippia does, and I'm also certain that you haven't a clue. Murk Paradox wrote:
Oh, the standard is once I click a command or a module, I should be able to see that result in a timely manner.
It does its just no longer aligned to real time Now that definition, please.
Lag is the ability for a client-server, or server-client ability to keep up with a command from one source to the other.
For instance, If I'm hosting a game that you joined and I can see your actions faster than you can see mine, there is going to be lag.
Now, you mentioned latency, which I found funny, because latency is the RATE of which that lag happens, recorded in milliseconds (can vary actually).
But you want to assume that I do not know my "highschool glossary" terms simply because this thread is full of people that do not realize that time dilation is a code that increases server-client latency in order to increase the stability of connections and processed commands.
That time dilation, which increases latency, is in fact, creating stability at the cost of "lag".
Stop putting me under the light like you are a badass. You aren't.
Time dilation, by definition, design, and result, is, lag.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:05:00 -
[161] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia, are you aware of what lag means? I don't think you do.
Oh Hell no. I want to hear you explain what lag actually is. Because I'm certain that Tippia does, and I'm also certain that you haven't a clue. Murk Paradox wrote:
Oh, the standard is once I click a command or a module, I should be able to see that result in a timely manner.
It does its just no longer aligned to real time Now that definition, please.
Also, time dilation is in direct conflict of "real time" btw.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:05:00 -
[162] - Quote
Again, no but thanks for playing.
Latency is latency, its the time required for packet transmission.
You are still way off on lag.
Murk Paradox wrote:[
Also, time dilation is in direct conflict of "real time" btw.
Incorrect, no computer program has the ability to affect mankind's perception of the space-time continuum, what IS changing is game time, the client update rate from the server drops to a tenth of normal, so in real time the game runs at 1/10 speed at 10% TiDi.
Still waiting on lag. |

Maximillian German
Spectres Syndicate
42
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:05:00 -
[163] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:I think where the fanboys are getting obsessed is in defense of their holy matron they fixate on the term 'lag' as a somantic argument that avoids confronting the reality of gameplay suckage during large fleet battles... So lets start again, with using more fanboy-approved terms like 'slowdowns' (and the ubiquitous 'suckage'). I have updated the blog post as well to be more fanboy (samantic-fixated-derp-meisters) friendly to what I am talking about as well...I am nothing if not flexible!
How as paying EvE users did we come to accept UI razzle dazzle and gimmicks instead of a true remedy to slowdowns? When did nullsec alliances give up the ghost, and like a victim of Stokholm syndrome buy into the notion that TiDi is some kind of answer to the rediculous fail of slowdown suckage on the single-shard, single-sandbox? I don't get it.Can someone explain this please? It wasn't so long ago people were burning Jita because of micro-transactions, yet now with increasing server suckage the response is 'meh'?
I too like to call people fanbois whenever they counter my point. Anyway, on to your question. How did we come to accept "razzle dazzle" instead of a true remedy to slowdow? I would argue that we did not accept one thing instead of the other. First, i'm going to assume you are referencing the Jita riots rather than burn jita, because they are completely different. Burn jita was unrelated to the incarna expansion(read microtransactions).
Second, significant "UI razzle dazzle", and I assume you are referencing the new scanning system, jumpgates, etc, is unique to Odyssey. In fact, the initial "razzle dazzle" update was Incarna and it was furiously decried by the community when it hit the server incomplete. Did Odyssey make some changes to the UI? Yea. But those were overshadowed by the tiericide changes and the reallocation of resources(r64 moons, ice belts, and mining belts). What some of us tried to say before the topic turned into an argument about lag, was the we were told by CCP devs that lag would not be a quick fix, and I accept that answer in part due to the technical reasons already stated. In the mean time, I'm happy with the itterations that have happened in the recent updates. Would I like lag to be fixed? Yes. however it is not something that will happen overnight. Even then, the fight against lag will never end as long as eve continues to grow. |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:06:00 -
[164] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Again, no but thanks for playing.
Latency is latency, its the time required for packet transmission.
You are still way off on lag.
Prove it. (You do know that latency is a rate measured in milliseconds which is what "time" is right? I don't think you caught on to that part). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:08:00 -
[165] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: You are still way off on lag.
Prove it. (You do know that latency is a rate measured in milliseconds which is what "time" is right? I don't think you caught on to that part).[/quote]
I already posted exactly what lag is, I'm waiting on you. You are still flailing. |

Maximillian German
Spectres Syndicate
42
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:09:00 -
[166] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Yes I have.
No you didn't. What is the idea solution for running over the bandwidth of the I/O AND in concurrently driving your processing resources well beyond what they are capable of. What is the "standard" that you used to call CCPs middleware substandard. To be substandard there was to be an accepted standard first. Murk Paradox wrote:Maximillian German wrote:so tell me Murk, what is your solution? If we're all running away from the problem, then where is your answer? The answer to what? I am not saying I know more than CCP, I just recognize the fact that time dilation is lag created by the server to make sure the # of disconnects are reduced. You are the one/s trying to troll a response because of the lack of understanding, not me =) ......our lack of understanding when you can't use basic terms relating to computer operation. Oh, the standard is once I click a command or a module, I should be able to see that result in a timely manner.
And is there a game that does that with 4000+ players in the same area? No? Then the performance by Eve in TiDI -is- the standard.
|

Maximillian German
Spectres Syndicate
42
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:10:00 -
[167] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: You are still way off on lag.
Prove it. (You do know that latency is a rate measured in milliseconds which is what "time" is right? I don't think you caught on to that part).
I already posted exactly what lag is, I'm waiting on you. You are still flailing.[/quote]
I guess you could even say he's......*puts on sunglasses* lagging YEEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:11:00 -
[168] - Quote
Maximillian German wrote:
And is there a game that does that with 4000+ players in the same area? No? Then the performance by Eve in TiDI -is- the standard.
Eh? So your solution is to simply double talk the fact that time dilation is lag created by ccp simply because there is no other way of doing it?
I'm not sure how that's an argument.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:11:00 -
[169] - Quote
Maximillian German wrote: I'm happy with the itterations that have happened in the recent updates. Would I like lag to be fixed? Yes. however it is not something that will happen overnight. Even then, the fight against lag will never end as long as eve continues to grow.
So far as that goes, I'm not sure the technology exists.
....and even if it does, I highly doubt that it is compatible with python.
Like I said, enterprise level hardware is my thing. Its what I do for a living. |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:12:00 -
[170] - Quote
Maximillian German wrote:Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: You are still way off on lag.
Prove it. (You do know that latency is a rate measured in milliseconds which is what "time" is right? I don't think you caught on to that part). I already posted exactly what lag is, I'm waiting on you. You are still flailing.
I guess you could even say he's......*puts on sunglasses* lagging YEEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH[/quote]
Just you saying "no" doesn't dispute the fact.
You asked for it, and got it. The burden has been met.
Trolling isn't going to work for much longer if you want to actually be a part of the conversation. You aren't that difficult to handle =P "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:14:00 -
[171] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Eh? So your solution is to simply double talk the fact that time dilation is lag created by ccp simply because there is no other way of doing it?
Its finally sinking in.
Its not hardware, you aren't getting anything better, the Eve cluster architecture is a super computer.
So that leaves software/middleware optimization, and like I said real time dynamic loadsharing isn't a trivial undertaking, and anything done to the engine itself is a monumental undertaking.
Murk Paradox wrote:
Just you saying "no" doesn't dispute the fact.
You asked for it, and got it. The burden has been met.
.
When you have your facts right you can tell me that anything has been met. |

Maximillian German
Spectres Syndicate
42
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:15:00 -
[172] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Maximillian German wrote: I'm happy with the itterations that have happened in the recent updates. Would I like lag to be fixed? Yes. however it is not something that will happen overnight. Even then, the fight against lag will never end as long as eve continues to grow. So far as that goes, I'm not sure the technology exists. ....and even if it does, I highly doubt that it is compatible with python. Like I said, enterprise level hardware is my thing. Its what I do for a living.
Yup, eliminating lag is a constantly moving goalpost. |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:15:00 -
[173] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Eh? So your solution is to simply double talk the fact that time dilation is lag created by ccp simply because there is no other way of doing it?
Its finally sinking in. Its not hardware, you aren't getting anything better, the Eve cluster architecture is a super computer. So that leaves software/middleware optimization, and like I said real time dynamic loadsharing isn't a trivial undertaking, and anything done to the engine itself is a monumental undertaking.
But that is not in any sort of direct conflict with time dilation being lag. So again, I'm trying to figure out if you're agreeing with me or arguing, because we are on the same page. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:18:00 -
[174] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: But that is not in any sort of direct conflict with time dilation being lag. So again, I'm trying to figure out if you're agreeing with me or arguing, because we are on the same page.
So I see we are back to any form of performance change is lag.
Latency is not lag. TiDi is not lag.
Lag is what happens when the the interrupt queue exceeds the client update rate. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15829
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:19:00 -
[175] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Lag is the ability for a client-server, or server-client ability to keep up with a command from one source to the other.
For instance, If I'm hosting a game that you joined and I can see your actions faster than you can see mine, there is going to be lag. GǪwhich (assuming we actually buy this very odd and unorthodox definition) is something TiDi removes.
Quote:Now, you mentioned latency, which I found funny, because latency is the RATE of which that lag happens, recorded in milliseconds (can vary actually). No. Latency is the one-way or round-trip time from sender to receiver (and/or back to sender).
Quote:That time dilation, which increases latency, is in fact, creating stability at the cost of "lag". No. It is reducing lag at the cost of latency. Time dilation, by definition and design, removes the lag that comes from the server not processing everything correctly. It does this by scaling the world simulation speed to account for the processing delays that come with a high-load situation. It also improves stability, since one of the lag effects that TiDi works its way around is that the server fails to keep the session active, but again, that's a removal of lag at the cost of other things. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Maximillian German
Spectres Syndicate
43
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:21:00 -
[176] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: But that is not in any sort of direct conflict with time dilation being lag. So again, I'm trying to figure out if you're agreeing with me or arguing, because we are on the same page.
So I see we are back to any form of performance change is lag. Latency is not lag. TiDi is not lag. Lag is what happens when the the interrupt queue exceeds the client update rate.
which is of course countered in eve by slowing the client update rate as not to overload the server. Thus, you have TiDi. |

Maximillian German
Spectres Syndicate
43
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:25:00 -
[177] - Quote
On topic: Murk, can you take a break from your lag discussion and answer the question of the OP? In case you have forgotten, here it is:
How as paying EvE users did we come to accept UI razzle dazzle and gimmicks instead of a true remedy to slowdowns? |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:25:00 -
[178] - Quote
Maximillian German wrote:[ which is of course countered in eve by slowing the client update rate as not to overload the server. Thus, you have TiDi.
 |

Maximillian German
Spectres Syndicate
43
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:26:00 -
[179] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Maximillian German wrote:[ which is of course countered in eve by slowing the client update rate as not to overload the server. Thus, you have TiDi. 
Did I get something wrong? Or is eve slowing down the request rate? |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
381
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:27:00 -
[180] - Quote
Maximillian German wrote:
How as paying EvE users did we come to accept UI razzle dazzle and gimmicks instead of a true remedy to slowdowns?
Because as a rational discussion there is no solution to the slowdown.
Like I said, if it exists, its likely not compatible with python, and you don't just port 10 years of code being developed piecemeal to a new environment.
The undertaking is basically making a new game, from scratch.
Whether we like it or not that is the reality of it. |
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