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Temerlyn
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Posted - 2003.08.16 12:24:00 -
[1]
I think this has probably been brought up but its something that has to be looked at and either fixed or stated its not intended to work as such.
ECM bursts do not stack when 2 or more are used together.
Is this intended to be like this or is it an actual bug.
I believe it worked in the past for stacking.
Can i get a response on this please
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Will McBlack
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Posted - 2003.08.16 14:17:00 -
[2]
It is intented to break a lock and while they do not stack together... you can stack 'm with ECM-multispectrals and alike. That way you dont perma-jam your target but you can put them at the start of the locking cycle again :)
2 ECM Multi's + 1 ECM Burst will effectively kill most locks on you, hope that helps?
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Temerlyn
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Posted - 2003.08.17 22:58:00 -
[3]
You know thats the wrong answer they should stack. Useing a multi spec requires a target, useing 2 ecm bursts can be used to break jamming on you by breaking there target lock.
I am pretty sure it worked before the patch. This need to be fixed imo otherwise its a waste of Database space.
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Temerlyn
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Posted - 2003.08.20 03:33:00 -
[4]
As usual no answer
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WolfA4
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Posted - 2003.08.20 04:53:00 -
[5]
42 :)
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Klydor
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Posted - 2003.08.20 12:13:00 -
[6]
EMC Bursts are only for jamming the sensors of any ship that have a sensor rating below 8.
This means to jam a moa with a sensor rating of 11 your would need either 2 x -6 ecm gravametric jammers
OR
One -6 ecm gravametric to drop the ships sensor rating to +5 then an ECM burst would finish them off as the sensor rating is now below +8.
Thats how ECM burst currently work and how I imagine they were implemented. They should not stack as they do not give a + or - to sensors they mearly jam ships with a Current rating of less than 8.
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Temerlyn
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Posted - 2003.08.21 11:05:00 -
[7]
Gunna keep bumping this till i get some answer from a dev about this. I want to make sure that if there is a bug here that they know about it and will fix it.
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Klydor
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Posted - 2003.08.21 14:10:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Klydor on 21/08/2003 14:11:21
There is no bug they work as intended READ their description they break a lock only on ships with sensors below their strenght. They do not stack.
If your not willing to take our advice on the matter then why post it? Why not just file a "OTHER" petition and ask a dev / gm to clarify for you.
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Gildon
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Posted - 2003.08.21 14:24:00 -
[9]
I think they SHOULD stack, they take 2 module slots, no reason they shouldn't stack. And the description is about the single MODULE itself not about how they act with other modules.
Either way would like to know if it is a bug or not. They have a duration and range, I'd understand if the duration was instant (that would mean you couldn't stack em)
G
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Temerlyn
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Posted - 2003.08.21 14:53:00 -
[10]
For one none of you are developers and you are making assumptions.
2 whats the point of a module that can only break locks of frigates yet generally has to be mounted on a cruiser to be used.
How can you use a multi freq or any other ecm with a burst when you are EW yourself
Burst + another ecm doesnt work when you cant target anyone.
Also as i Have stated i am pretty darn sure it worked before the patch when i attacked a scorpion in my moa one day.
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Klydor
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Posted - 2003.08.21 15:10:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Klydor on 21/08/2003 15:11:12
You clearly do not fully understand ECM and did not read my first post.
Let me illustrate, 1 assume I fly a moa with sensor strength of 11 and I have 1 backup array giving sensor strengh 13.
You in your ship have 2 ECM modules and 1 ecm burst. I have you locked and am firing at you.
You active both your ECM modules against me
doing -12 rating. I am now on 1 sensor strenght thus you have not jammed me.
HOWEVER my ships sensor rating is now below the 8 that an ecm burst is capable of jamming. So by activating the ecm burst any ship within 4km of you who has a sensor strenght < 8 will now lose its lock on you.
You have BROKEN the LOCK.
That is what the description states.
Why are ecm bursts useful you may ask well take the same example. But this time 2 moas are locked onto you. You use both ECM modules 1 on each moa doing -6.
Each moa is now down to 7 sensor. Using the ecm burst you have now jammed or broken the lock from BOTH moas. Something that would be impossible to do with 3 ecm modules. but possible with 2 ecm and one burst.
That is how Ihave used ECM burst since I first started playing this game which was when the game hit retail. That is how they have worked since that date.
If ECM bursts were meant to stack then their description would give a + or - affect.
For example ecm destabalisers do -6 per module and thus stack. ECM Burst however do not do +8 or -8 they mearly break lock on ships with less than 8 sensor. Thus 2,3 or 4 of them still only break the lock on < 8 sensor.
You only need to carry one ecm burst.
I hope that is a more understandable example and your right I'm not a dev or GM but then you'd get a reply off of them quicker via a petition. I'm mearly stating how bursts work, based on their description and usage since the game hit retail.
Finally BURSTS are not meant to BREAK a JAMMING of you, they are meant to break a LOCK of you. These are two different things.
ECM and ECM bursts are under the ECM category, they prevent a LOCK ON or BREAK an ACTIVE LOCK.
ECCM is for BREAKING an active JAMMING.
Quite different items.
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Silver Striker
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Posted - 2003.08.21 15:32:00 -
[12]
How can bursts stack anyway? They don't affect the sensors of the others side.
Just makes the minimum sensor strength to lock you at least 8. That doesn't mean they lose -8 to their sensors. So if you were to use 2 of them you still only need 8 to get a lock on you.
Note that there is not a +/- next to sensor strength's. Nothing is being altered so there is nothing to stack. Technically you are not stacking when using it with a targetted jammer, the jammer drops sensor strength, then because of the burst jammer they may not be able to hold a lock.
That's fantastic, really, but we need more COW BELL!!!! |
Claren
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Posted - 2003.08.21 15:42:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Claren on 21/08/2003 15:43:18
Thank you Klydor, I have also been confused about this items.
But then again most of these items are specialized on only one out of four different types of sensors. Do you guess what type of ship will attack you next before choosing what module to fit, or how do you cope with that?
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Klydor
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Posted - 2003.08.21 15:51:00 -
[14]
You can get multispectal ecm which will allow you to jam any race but they are not as effective as specialist ecm. -4 as opposed to -6 I beleive.
I tend to take my ecm based on the area I'm travelling through, which type of ships I tend to meet in that area. Or if I'm expecting a specific person to attack me I can load out for that.
Some of the times I have the correct ecm, other times I don't. You can play safe and carry multi spec ones but then you need 3 to do the same to all races -12, as 2 specific ones. It's all a question of selecting the appropriate loadout and a bit of luck.
As they say knowledge is power
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.08.21 18:21:00 -
[15]
 Quote:
You can get multispectal ecm which will allow you to jam any race but they are not as effective as specialist ecm. -4 as opposed to -6 I beleive.
I tend to take my ecm based on the area I'm travelling through, which type of ships I tend to meet in that area. Or if I'm expecting a specific person to attack me I can load out for that.
Some of the times I have the correct ecm, other times I don't. You can play safe and carry multi spec ones but then you need 3 to do the same to all races -12, as 2 specific ones. It's all a question of selecting the appropriate loadout and a bit of luck.
As they say knowledge is power
The "total jamming power" of the multispecs is larger. (-4 to each for a total of 16 points vs. -6 for one/-2 to others for a total of 12)
But if TTI's Nexus is correct, multispecs eat HUGE amounts of cap. I haven't had a chance to confirm it ingame, my multispecs are 11 jumps from where I've been operating lately.
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Klydor
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Posted - 2003.08.21 19:55:00 -
[16]
yup but 4 multispecs will do less ecm jamming power in total than 4 specialised ones. The benefit to multispecs is that you don't need to worry about what race the person your trying to jam is.
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Temerlyn
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Posted - 2003.08.22 01:36:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Temerlyn on 22/08/2003 01:38:29
Quote:
Edited by: Klydor on 21/08/2003 15:11:12
You clearly do not fully understand ECM and did not read my first post.
Let me illustrate, 1 assume I fly a moa with sensor strength of 11 and I have 1 backup array giving sensor strengh 13.
You in your ship have 2 ECM modules and 1 ecm burst. I have you locked and am firing at you.
You active both your ECM modules against me
doing -12 rating. I am now on 1 sensor strenght thus you have not jammed me.
HOWEVER my ships sensor rating is now below the 8 that an ecm burst is capable of jamming. So by activating the ecm burst any ship within 4km of you who has a sensor strenght < 8 will now lose its lock on you.
You have BROKEN the LOCK.
That is what the description states.
Your an idiot and you cannot cleary see the flaw in this method.
If you jam me with EW gear how the hell will i get 2 ECM's non burst to target you.
YOU NEED A TARGET to lock anyone.
ECM bursts are designed to break locks yes. But they dont break locks at all cause they dont stack.
If some one uses Tragetable ECM's on me and locks me down the only counter measure i can think of are ECM bursts as they do not require a target to break the lock. But they dont stack and are thus useless.
ECM bursts are dangerous to use as you need to get within 5k's to use them.
They should stack.
The other thing is, you are not a developer, programer etc you do not know for sure and are making assumptions. Going by the 'Description' of a module is not basis for an argument when past item description have been wrong, some are still wrong and not been updated yet and your interpritation may be different than what the intended discription was about.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.08.22 06:28:00 -
[18]
why the hell you think you should break locks from anyone in any situation? hell, even in current status, ew is overpowered, and you wanna make it as "i win" button? LOL
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Shock
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Posted - 2003.08.22 12:47:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Shock on 22/08/2003 12:49:03
EW is certainly not overpowered. The moment a EW ship encouters multiple enemies it's in deep ****.
Oh and the ECM burst most certainly is not a 'I win' situation, since it's easy to counter by adding some upgrades or just staying out of the burst radius.
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soonÖ |
Salgurdar
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Posted - 2003.08.22 13:09:00 -
[20]
Quote:
ECM and ECM bursts are under the ECM category, they prevent a LOCK ON or BREAK an ACTIVE LOCK.
The key is "BREAK an ACTIVE LOCK".
ECM stands for Electronic Couter Measure - these items are designed to counter a ships snesor systems, effective as a counter to other ECM systems.
ECCM stands for electronic counter counter Measure - effective ONLY against ECM systems.
Saying that ECM gear shouldn't be able to counter ECM gear is pure stupidity.
Klydor is trying to sound like an expert on a subject he seems to have very little knowledge of. 1) ECM bursts are extreme short range items ie to try and jamm 2 ships with ECM bursts, both ships would have to be within, at least, 5750m. 2) Look at the progreesion of ECM modules; the specialised ECM mods -6 to 1 type, -2 to all others, range limited to ship's targetting range, stackable; Multispec ECM mods -4 to all sensor types, range limited to ship's targetting range, stackable; ECM burst -8 to all sensor types, range MAXIMUM 5750m, non-stackable? Makes little sense to me. It's like giving stanard missiles a blast radius, but FoF (if only they worked) standard missiles no blast radius.
I think ECM bursts should stack, otherwise they serve little purpose other than jamming drones. Particularly seeings there are far better options in EW.
"We all know what we are, we're just haggling about the price" - W.C. Fields
Rolschau > anyway... because some jerk today... (it is soon 5 am) will turn on the smoke alarm all over the place and then go inside our room to check.. then I will stay up and not get a shock while sleeping and die.... I will be playing eve untill the jerk shows up
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.08.22 16:09:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Edited by: Shock on 22/08/2003 12:49:03
EW is certainly not overpowered. The moment a EW ship encouters multiple enemies it's in deep ****.
Oh and the ECM burst most certainly is not a 'I win' situation, since it's easy to counter by adding some upgrades or just staying out of the burst radius.
you mean ew ship need superior than multiple ships then ew is overpowered? lol......1v1, scorpion vs any other ship, the ship is dead meat.
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Ehxo
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Posted - 2003.08.22 16:16:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Ehxo on 22/08/2003 16:17:00
ECM busrts are meant as a close range defense tool for big ships (cruiser and above) to break the lock of close range frigates as they bug you like little bees. Nothing more. You can also use it well on fast frigates against other frigates since you can get close faster.
ECM bursts are not meant to be used in EW like other long range ECM jammers do.
It's not bugged, you can't stack area of effect modules.
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Snoop
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Posted - 2003.08.22 16:40:00 -
[23]
ecm bursts probably work well against drones.
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Silver Striker
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Posted - 2003.08.22 17:37:00 -
[24]
ECM Bursts are NOT -8. They are a device that requires anyone wishing to target YOU and YOU alone to have a sensor strength of at least 8 within a certain range. They do stack, but there is no benefit you gain from it to your sensors, or a hit on your enemies sensors. Just makes ppl with 8 sensor strength or less be unable to lock you and ONLY you. There is nothing to stack. These are intended to be used with close range attack ships, you run your enemy hit him with a -6 jammer dropping his sensor strength to 6 or 7 then pop on the burst and bam he can't lock you. Should he get more than 5 - 10k from you he can lock you.
Silver
That's fantastic, really, but we need more COW BELL!!!! |
Quince al'Pillan
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Posted - 2003.08.22 18:46:00 -
[25]
The reason that they don't stack is because they are a BURST of energy. A one time blast. If put on autorepeat, they "burst" multiple times. It is technically possible to get them to stack, but you have to make the two bursts go off at the exact same time. Otherwise, you get one burst for 8 and then another burst for 8. That's the reason that they don't stack normally.
Quote:
ecm bursts probably work well against drones.
No, they don't work well against them at all because the ROF of the drones is equal to the time it takes to target. ie, Yes, you just stopped the lock, but they can lock again and fire with minimal difference to their DPM. Drones have a targetting speed of 2 seconds and a ROF of 2 seconds. ECM bursts have a ROF of 20 seconds. It doesn't work out.
-Q
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Klydor
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Posted - 2003.08.23 01:09:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Klydor on 23/08/2003 01:12:05
As far as I am concerned and this is how it is in game:
ECM is for breaking someone who has a lock on you or for preventing them from establishing a lock on you.
If you are been jammed then ECM will do nothing to stop this, bursts or not. Because to use ECM yuo need to be able to lock the person.
ECCM however will stop them jamming you as it is designed to counter the effects of ECM.
Thats how it works in game.
I don't see the problem with that? ECM works against sensors, whilst ECCM works against ECM. Simple. If bursts were meant to Break LOCKS when you are jammed then they should be called ECCM bursts, because they would not only be breaking a lock but also countering the ECM that is jamming you.
The distinction that should be clear is that you can break a lock using ECM but you cannot break out of been jammed using ECM. Which is why ECCM exists, to counter the ECM.
and no I'm not trying to sound like an expert, I'm simply explaining how it works in the game at this time. If you don't want me to explain that, then fine I shall no longer try to help you out, and yes I'm a little narked that after trying to explain how something works people have a go at me.
Anyhow, thats my last post on this topic as your clearly going to ignore everything I've said.
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Fortoye Drak
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Posted - 2003.08.23 12:09:00 -
[27]
Quote:
I think this has probably been brought up but its something that has to be looked at and either fixed or stated its not intended to work as such.
ECM bursts do not stack when 2 or more are used together.
Is this intended to be like this or is it an actual bug.
I believe it worked in the past for stacking.
Can i get a response on this please
Unfortunately there is a LOT of disinformation and misinformation in this thread.
I can, however, give you a definitive answer:
ECM Bursts do not stack and are not meant to stack.
- - -
In addition:
NO ECM stacks "across ships". This is a very common misonception. 2 ships both targetting the same enemy DO NOT have a cumulative ECM power.
Similarly ECM Bursts NEVER stack, with ECM or ECM Bursts across ships.
All EW is handled strictly on a one-to-one ratio.
- - -
Finally - as from the above you should now realise that if an enemy is targetting you with 10 point osf ECM, and you have a signal strength of 11, this does NOT mean that another ship only needs 2 points to jam you.
Any ship always requires the full ECM strength to jam an opponent. What other ships are doing is totally irrelevant. Its purely one ship to one ship.
- - -
ECM Burst useage:
The module is designed specifically to act as a time-limited break against ships of a specific class.
The first level of Bursts (what we have now) are intended as an anti-frigate ECM for cruisers, battleships or even industrials. As tech elvels go up the signal str and range of bursts increase to the point where they can jam cruisers and so forth (then their use is as anti-frigate and anti-cruiser close range locks).
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Klydor
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Posted - 2003.08.23 13:06:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Klydor on 23/08/2003 13:16:31
Edited by: Klydor on 23/08/2003 13:15:46
Fortoye Drak, you've hit the nail on the head.
For those who want to know more about ECM there is a guide here http://www.eve-i.de/article.php?id=32
This article will reitterate most of the information in this thread, although it does not deal specifically with bursts.
A discussion on bursts can be found here
http://www.eve-i.de/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=prof3&Number=22848&page=&view=&sb=5&o=
These posts and guides backup everything I've explained about bursts in that they do not stack, they jam all ships with < 8 sensor but they will stack with other ECM modules.
Your welcome to try this out in game and beleive me it does work as I use it on a regular basis to get out of tight situations and warp away.
PS Sorry about my slightly agressive post last night, it was a little late and I had a shorter fuse than normal :(
For those who don't want to read the whole therad heres the relevant quotes.
Quote:
Mrocktor - ECM Burst WILL stack with other ECM devices though, so if you have a multispectral on and burst you total 12 points of ECM on that target...
Quote:
Schizolsayer - That's because the Jammer will knock down the target ssensor strength below 8 thus making them vulnerable.
It's not really stacking as such, an ECM burst just checks ships within range and if they're sensor ratings are below 8 they lose the target lock and can't reaquire if still in range, if a ship is jammed already reudcing their sensors from 11 to 7 then the burst will work.
This is why two ECM bursts won't stack wth each other though. They just get calculated in the wrong way when logically they should stack as the amount of interference/static etc within 5km of the user would double if two are active.
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