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Kaladr
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Posted - 2005.12.21 10:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Kaladr on 21/12/2005 10:55:29 Well, here it is, a use for your market data files that RMR can generate:
EVE-Central.com
Its very very rough at the moment (and lacking in "wow" features), but it mostly works. There are two components at play here:
1. The Browser
Designed to somewhat work in the IGB, the Market Browser lets you view information on where items are for sale, at what prices, and possibly compare prices, ACROSS REGIONS. The data comes from user submitted market exports, which can be generated by the new RMR client on any single market item (see below). Note that station/system information is missing at the moment: I'm working on finding a datasource for this data that does not involve screen scraping EVE-online.com Historical and statistical information is coming as well.
2. The MarketUploader
A simple (and ugly, etc) piece of software which periodicaly checks the EVE program directory for market dumps every minute while running. These market dumps are then uploaded to EVE-Central.com to be included in the global market displays. This is how EVE-Central.com gets data, so we depend on people browsing the market to periodicaly update our prices! :)
Note that all of this is very very rough and quickly thrown together. It will improve with time! Give it a whirl and see what you think!
-- About the ads: Yes, there are ads for EVE online ISK selling houses. No, I didn't put them there, Google did. I'm in no way suggesting you buy from them. I've had them come and go, they're not always there. But feel free to give them an occasional click, costing them some money :) I'll be adding their URLs to the AdSense filter so you don't have to see them though.
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TheDeceit
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Posted - 2005.12.21 10:47:00 -
[2]
Wonderful! -------- "Yet we still hug the dear Deceit" - N. Cotton |
Tharrn
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Posted - 2005.12.21 10:51:00 -
[3]
Great idea.
Guess a very important feature would be to use it with EVE installations in non-standard locations though :s
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Kaladr
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Posted - 2005.12.21 10:52:00 -
[4]
Yeah, I'll have that in by tomorrow. Its not a big deal, just add a menu option :)
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Kerushi
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Posted - 2005.12.21 10:52:00 -
[5]
nice idea but the google ads are abit "uhhh"
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2005.12.21 10:53:00 -
[6]
congratulations on your initiative.
Maybe you should discuss this with some people that know about igb-specific scripts that can ease your posting procedure. Like automatically get charname/location etc... This one will require trust from the igb, but price-posters should be ok with that. I bet they also have many more tricks to help with automation.
Originally by: Oveur
I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2005.12.21 11:06:00 -
[7]
Edited by: ToxicFire on 21/12/2005 11:06:57 It will ruin the economy and the game. CCP has to stop this sorry to be a spoil spot but it will prices will be artificially inflated everywhere if someone can just log on and find the cheapest of an item in the enireity of eve. Again to clarify this is on a par with macro miners.
Though it is a damm good idea and i'd use it it will have detrimental affects if it ignores region boundrys tis why we have region markets in the first place
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.21 11:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: ToxicFire Edited by: ToxicFire on 21/12/2005 11:06:57 It will ruin the economy and the game. CCP has to stop this sorry to be a spoil spot but it will prices will be artificially inflated everywhere if someone can just log on and find the cheapest of an item in the enireity of eve. Again to clarify this is on a par with macro miners.
people are so lazy that they'll buy things for 300k when the same thing is selling for 200k in another station in the same system. the market tool will only affect the shopping habits of the informed, who make up a rather small percentage of the playerbase.
CCP wouldn't have put in the data export button if they thought it'd ruin the game.
------- macro hunters - join channel MacroIntel |
Kaladr
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Posted - 2005.12.21 11:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jennai
people are so lazy that they'll buy things for 300k when the same thing is selling for 200k in another station in the same system. the market tool will only affect the shopping habits of the informed, who make up a rather small percentage of the playerbase.
CCP wouldn't have put in the data export button if they thought it'd ruin the game.
That is my belief as well. And who is going to try hauling stuff across the EVE universe anyway?
If, for any reason, anyone at CCP feels this is a terrible idea, please let me know.
/still wants his divisional corp wallets and wallet export.
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2005.12.21 11:17:00 -
[10]
True, but don't take the export button at face value as a statement say yes we support cross market trade scanners. And no matter how small it will inflate prices artificially. Gonna make trade routes which are a major thing in the game a part of the past because there will be no secrecy about them anymore people will just search for lowest seller highest buyer. I mean how long before someone writes a bunch of bots that sit on trial accounts all day long pulling the market data at regular intervals for every item.
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2005.12.21 11:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kaladr
Originally by: Jennai
people are so lazy that they'll buy things for 300k when the same thing is selling for 200k in another station in the same system. the market tool will only affect the shopping habits of the informed, who make up a rather small percentage of the playerbase.
CCP wouldn't have put in the data export button if they thought it'd ruin the game.
That is my belief as well. And who is going to try hauling stuff across the EVE universe anyway?
If, for any reason, anyone at CCP feels this is a terrible idea, please let me know.
/still wants his divisional corp wallets and wallet export.
You'd be suprised i had 60 + jumps in my shopping trip last night and saved over 8 mil just shopping around. I can't say that I wouldn't have loved this tool helping me out but I didn't I did it the old fashioned way and it was much more interactive than simply searching setting auto pilot and afking.
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Irongut
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Posted - 2005.12.21 11:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: ToxicFire It will ruin the economy and the game. CCP has to stop this sorry to be a spoil spot but it will prices will be artificially inflated everywhere if someone can just log on and find the cheapest of an item in the enireity of eve.
Nonsense. If we can find out what the cheapest price for an item is anywhere in EVE then surely we'll try to get a similar price in a region near us? In which case I would expect prices to go down in expensive regions.
Originally by: ToxicFire Again to clarify this is on a par with macro miners.
This is nothing like macro miners. Macro miners stip belts depriving real players of that ore. They sell huge quantities of ore at cheap prices devaluing the ore, minerals and anything made from them. They sell ISK for rl cash, devaluing the ISK you and I have worked hard to earn.
This is more like an automated version of the trade forums and channels. Have you petitioned to get the Price Check forum banned because it is destroying the game?
I think it's a great idea, especially for those of us in 0.0. Now we can check the Empire price for an item more easily, find out how badly we're getting ripped off on the local market and decide if a shopping trip would be a good idea. It does not greatly change gameplay because we could do this before by asking a mate in Empire for a price check.
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Chribba
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Posted - 2005.12.21 13:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Irongut
Originally by: ToxicFire It will ruin the economy and the game. CCP has to stop this sorry to be a spoil spot but it will prices will be artificially inflated everywhere if someone can just log on and find the cheapest of an item in the enireity of eve.
Nonsense. If we can find out what the cheapest price for an item is anywhere in EVE then surely we'll try to get a similar price in a region near us? In which case I would expect prices to go down in expensive regions.
It will surely affect the income of a lot of traders, many makes their living off moving items and ships from one place to another and adding the travelexpenses, this way their goods would most likely not be sold at the same rate since the buyer see that the item is overpriced.
But don't get me wrong the idea is good (I have had this idea ages ago but never took it further). A problem would be to actually get correct market data though, since you need to rely on others updating the data, and thus people could easily forge the market data as well.
EVE-Files | EVE-Search | Get Email if thread updates |
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Gradinger
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Posted - 2005.12.21 13:28:00 -
[14]
Nice idea!
and, yea, it could influence the economy in a bad way for some ppl - but CCP shouldnt have implemented the export feature if they dont want that - i mean they MUST have seen it coming...
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Gonada
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Posted - 2005.12.21 13:44:00 -
[15]
hope you get banned for using 3rd party programs with eve.
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.12.21 14:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gonada hope you get banned for using 3rd party programs with eve.
That's the whole point of allowing market data to be exported in RMR, stupid troll.
Recruiting |
Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.21 14:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Gonada hope you get banned for using 3rd party programs with eve.
let's ban everyone who uses nagamazon or eve.grismar.net too
------- macro hunters - join channel MacroIntel |
Sakira LeCastantas
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Posted - 2005.12.21 14:39:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Sakira LeCastantas on 21/12/2005 14:39:16
Originally by: Gonada hope you get banned for using 3rd party programs with eve.
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2005.12.21 14:41:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tobiaz
Originally by: Gonada hope you get banned for using 3rd party programs with eve.
That's the whole point of allowing market data to be exported in RMR, stupid troll.
Show me where exactly that CCP stated the singular item export was for third party programs to automatically use. If it was surely they'd have just made it dump the entire market database or make the servers remotely accessible like sisi
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Caerleus
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Posted - 2005.12.21 14:53:00 -
[20]
Stepping on dodgy EULA ground here...specifically...
7.2 You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
By accessing any other region than the one you are in, you are altering your gameplay above what is permitted and possible in game.
It would be great if this could be used legally, but I fear those with the clickity click buttons wont approve.
It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required. |
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2005.12.21 14:53:00 -
[21]
Lets look at the implications of this on a full scale.
Everyone can see the market so those with the best skills can undercut anyone they want to this forces prices of products to be come dirt cheap but it forces newbie traders, builders and researchers to not be able to make a profit until they've capped all of their tradeskills. Because the number of people producing items has reduced because they can't make a profit, mineral aren't so in demand so prices go down on minerals. Mining becomes even less profitable for the average miners but for someone like a macro miner they can shift minerals en masse so they'll still be making a fairly substancial profit. If people aren't mining then pirates don't have anyone to hunt and blow up or ransom. The game then becomes full of people just pvping destroying the game.
You see how something as little as this can have such an effect. All it would take is an highly organised group of traders in one of the major alliances to nuke the market.
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MaranhaoP
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Posted - 2005.12.21 14:56:00 -
[22]
Excellent idea! :D
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Sharcy
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:04:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Caerleus Stepping on dodgy EULA ground here...specifically...
7.2 You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
By accessing any other region than the one you are in, you are altering your gameplay above what is permitted and possible in game.
Sorry, but that's a load of BS (and I don't mean a battleship). Aren't pricechecks being done on this very forum? Heck, there's even a dedicated subforum for it. This portal and software doesn't do any alterations to game files, it merely takes the info that's there and shares it.
-- Press [Alt][F4] for my witty signature... |
Jarnis McPieksu
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sharcy
Originally by: Caerleus Stepping on dodgy EULA ground here...specifically...
7.2 You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
By accessing any other region than the one you are in, you are altering your gameplay above what is permitted and possible in game.
Sorry, but that's a load of BS (and I don't mean a battleship). Aren't pricechecks being done on this very forum? Heck, there's even a dedicated subforum for it. This portal and software doesn't do any alterations to game files, it merely takes the info that's there and shares it.
Asking for price check ingame = normal game play Automating a price database off ingame exports to generate a DB of prices to be checked from = altering game play using a third party program
Currently this is not fully automated - you need to browse markets manually and spam the report generation button - so I guess you are in the grey area between banstick and the light...
I think the most objectionable bit here is the background program that keeps automagically uploading market exports as they appear to eve folder... market exports were limited to single items probably for a very very good reason. Without automation, you could just capture limited market data. Now you've provided one piece of automation. I admit that currently this is bit on the grey area - unless a Dev steps in with a ruling, I won't flame you to crisp. Anyway I think people would object less if you would have to manually upload the material instead of a 3rd party background program collecting them to automate the data gathering.
In any case, if someone merges your stuff with an ingame alt bot(s) that macroes thru all the items in the market for region(s) to generate data for full price DB system, I will call FOUL.
Of course even if you don't do this, someone else will - without releasing any of the programs or publicizing the fact - since having access to complete market data across the game universe is Extremely Profitable. Are devs watching for macroing to export market data off game for this purpose?
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Haniblecter Teg
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:39:00 -
[25]
Ten bucks says the uploader is a sham. Thise site is really thrown together to advertise the ISK sellers at the bottom. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:42:00 -
[26]
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 21/12/2005 15:42:35 Right: The definitive story on market data.
After looking into some of the other exports form the game, specifically the stuff used for Eve-I object explorer and JIDE's object explorer, I started to look at a way of exporting data from the market. I got as far as looking at the logserver, and realising that it's data was truncated, and then learnt that the market data was stored in the cache.
I did some basic poking about, but stopped due to the very EULA methods you quote (third-party applications, and reverse engineering). After several enquiries I emailed CCP, asking about the use of these cache files and was given permission to proceed. This was about 2 months ago.
After speaking further to another player who had managed to get around the problems I had encountered, we both got to the stage whereby we could identify more or less all of the market variables in the cache. Short of correctly identifying the rows which contained them.
Obviously, two players, or even two corporations holding the key to the market data would absolutely corner the market and cause massive profit for those two groups. So lo and behold, CCP put a market export into the client.
So in short: CCP put in the market export as (select) people were already close to doing it anyway. They intended it to be available to the masses.
If you don't approve of people using the market data, then I suggest you also boycott Chribba's tools, JIDE's object explorer, EveNews, and Eve.Grismar.Net.
Edit: I am aware that further people have probably had this *****ed months, if not years ago. But they have kept very quiet about it.
23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:46:00 -
[27]
Although the trader in my, and the selfish part of me, doesn't want every player in the game knowing exactly how the market behaves. It is an obvious extension of the data manipulation we all know and love.
Kaladr. I see your MarketUploader is in Python, out of interest, how are you getting data from client to server?
Anyone who seriously wants to undertake this sort of project. I am happy and would want to be involved. The only reason I don't begin my own, is that people have clearly jumped ahead and begun this service already.
23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC |
Coconut Joe
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:54:00 -
[28]
ooh, snap. http://cocojoe.ath.cx/servlet/readPrices I'm programming one useing servlets. Perhaps we could colaborate? I'll send you an email. ---- Nifty |
Ayla Vanir
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Posted - 2005.12.21 16:32:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Ayla Vanir on 21/12/2005 16:34:46 Things I'd like to see:
1) The uploader code vetted for security risk/concerns. Sorry, but the CCP devs said it best when talking about client vs server side game mechanics, "We can never trust the players." (or words to that effect).
2) Tree view for the Market Browser set to mimic the organization/grouping of items according to the in-game market UI. Perhaps using RMR-updated data from the eve-online.com Item Database or t20's periodic posting of raw data download packages.
3) Priority for me (and I suppose others interested in this) is to find/make a way to work with EVE client installs in non-default folder locations.
4) Archive all upload data. Not necessarily for public download. In and of itself, not much use. This suggestion is more to provide/facilitate any future features, not currently thought of, which may be dependent in part or in whole on price history.
5) Full IGB compatibility now and going forward. I think this is covered, but I mention it for emphasis.
6) Items link to the Show Info data.
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Kaladr
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Posted - 2005.12.21 17:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 Although the trader in my, and the selfish part of me, doesn't want every player in the game knowing exactly how the market behaves. It is an obvious extension of the data manipulation we all know and love.
Kaladr. I see your MarketUploader is in Python, out of interest, how are you getting data from client to server?
Anyone who seriously wants to undertake this sort of project. I am happy and would want to be involved. The only reason I don't begin my own, is that people have clearly jumped ahead and begun this service already.
The upload portion is a very simple HTTP POST request to the eve-central.com server with the CSV file as one of the form items. The CSV splitting, etc is being dome server side (client side latencies and the overhead of doing a bunch of requests makes this method the most efficient)
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