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PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
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Posted - 2013.08.12 18:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is very relevant unless you want to see T3's everywhere. It's not relevant for balancing, no. I wish people would stop spewing this garbage. Cost is certainly not the main balancing factor, but it is A balancing factor. No one would fly a zealot if an omen did the same job better in every way.
Personally, I think T3's should keep the SP loss, but lets not pretend that cost isn't a balancing factor. |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
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Posted - 2013.08.12 19:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
But cost means nothing to balance.
False. Why would I fly a zealot if an omen could do the exact same thing equally well? |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
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Posted - 2013.08.12 19:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:
False. Why would I fly a zealot if an omen could do the exact same thing equally well?
But it cant. The zealot is slightly better.
And the legion is slightly better than a zealot.
baltec1 wrote: But it is still balanced because it doesnt render the oem useless. CCP know you cannot balance on cost, they tried and it failed utterly. Ships will be balanced against the other ships of their class and those in the classes around it.
The two primary things separating the zealot and the omen are cost and power. I can just as easily say the legion is still balanced because it doesn't render the zealot useless.
The correct statement would have been: CCP knows you cannot balance on cost alone. Cost is very much a factor.  |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
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Posted - 2013.08.12 20:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
No it plays zero part in balancing. CCP have more or less said balancing on cost will not be happening at all. They are balancing on hulls and hulls alone.
If it plays zero part in balancing why is the zealot better than the omen at all? They fill the same role. As you say, the zealot does it slightly better.
The zealot also costs more.
Seems to me that cost is indeed a factor.  |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 20:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:If it plays zero part in balancing why is the zealot better than the omen at all? They fill the same role. As you say, the zealot does it slightly better. The zealot also costs more. Seems to me that cost is indeed a factor.  They are being balanced against the t1 class ships so that they are only a bit better not not to the point where they dominate. So.......they are better. Check.
And they cost more. Check.
So again, cost is clearly a balancing factor.  |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
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Posted - 2013.08.12 20:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:So.......they are better. Check. And they cost more. Check. So again, cost is clearly a balancing factor.  No. Cost is a product of balance (through the affect balance has on the demand for the item). It is not a factor in balance for the simple reason that it can never affect that balance. Something overpowered and costly does not mean it's not overpowered, and something underpowered and cheap does not mean it's not underpowered. You're confusing cause and consequence.
Not bad, but there is a fundamental mineral, pi product, and moon product cost associated with any given ship irrespective of market price and demand for that particular ship.
You are trying to confuse market price and cost. A zealot will always cost more than an omen. And as has been established, repeatedly, a zealot is somewhat better than an omen.
So again: They are better. Check. And they cost more. Check.
So again, cost is clearly a balancing factor.  |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
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Posted - 2013.08.12 20:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:So.......they are better. Check. And they cost more. Check. So again, cost is clearly a balancing factor.  No it not. The cost is only what it is because of what players are willing to pay. This is why you can never balance anything with cost. False. Again. There is a fundamental mineral, PI material, and moon material cost to every ship. It has absolutely nothing to do with what people will pay. The zealot will always have a higher cost than the omen.
So again: They are better. Check. And they cost more. Check.
So again, cost is clearly a balancing factor.  |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
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Posted - 2013.08.12 20:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Again, no. Here are the build materials for a zealot. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Zealot
Note how it requires one (1) omen and an additional minerals and commodities to produce a zealot.
A zealot will ALWAYS cost more than an omen, irrespective of market.
So again: They are better. Check. And they cost more. Check.
So again, cost is clearly a balancing factor.  |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
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Posted - 2013.08.12 20:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
The fact remains: if they changed the price on the Zealot to be the same as an Omen, the balance would not be affected in the slightest.
Bullshit. No one would ever produce an omen again if they could produce a zealot for the same exact material cost. And likewise, no one would ever fly an omen again if it had the exact same cost as a zealot. |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
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Posted - 2013.08.12 21:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Edit: Double post |
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PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 21:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Again, no. Here are the build materials for a zealot. GǪthe price of which is almost entirely determined by players, and the cost difference of which is so small as to not particularly matter. But there IS an absolute immutable cost difference in terms of materials between a zealot and an omen. The fact that a particular person (you) deems it irrelevant is really.... quite irrelevant.
Tippia wrote: The fact remains: if they changed the price on the Zealot to be the same as an Omen, the balance would not be affected in the slightest.
So, you're telling me that on a pound for pound basis, the zealot and the omen are balanced against each other. That one of those two ships is not clearly better than the other. Nice try.
Prince Kobol wrote:
No it isn't.
The zealot costs more as it is more difficult to build, the materials also cost more, HOWEVER, the costs are created by the player, not CCP.
Material price is irrelevant. That the zealot requires an equivalent or greater AMOUNT of each and every material to build is not controlled by the players, but by CCP. |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
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Posted - 2013.08.12 21:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:But there IS an absolute immutable cost difference in terms of materials between a zealot and an omen. GǪthat doesn't affect the balance between the two in the slightest. Quote:So, you're telling me that on a pound for pound basis, the zealot and the omen are balanced against each other. No. I'm merely telling you that the balance between the two ships are determined by their respective stats, not their costs. I'm telling you that cost is not a factor in balance because no ship has had its balance altered by its cost: awful ships are awful ships, no matter how cheap; overpowered ships are overpowered, no matter how costly; you cannot compensate for balance deficiencies by altering the cost GÇö not in EVE, not in any game ever. All cost does is delay the deployment (which is used in PvE games to adjust the difficulty curve line so that, while you come across more difficult enemies, you have now unlocked more powerful ships that deal with them as easily as the old cheap stuff dealt with the lower-class stuff you went up against before). Ok...so the zealot is equivalent or better than the omen in practically every way (Damage, Damage projection, Tracking, EHP, etc. etc.).
The Omen is likewise worse in all of those categories. So what exactly does the zealot give up to be superior or equivalent to the omen in every other way?
I suggested raw material amount, to which you replied:
Tippia wrote: The fact remains: if they changed the price on the Zealot to be the same as an Omen, the balance would not be affected in the slightest.
So the zealot has better stats than the omen, and this is counter balanced by..... what exactly? |

PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
137
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 21:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Ok...so the zealot is equivalent or better than the omen in practically every way (Damage, Damage projection, Tracking, EHP, etc. etc.).
The Omen is likewise worse in all of those categories. So what exactly does the zealot give up to be superior or equivalent to the omen in every other way? Various other stats, but there's your other problem: you're assuming that balance means equality. It doesn't. Which stats specifically? [citation needed] Seems to me the zealot is better than the omen in every relevant way.
Lets put it another way. Lets assume the zealot was moved to T1 with identical material costs, while keeping its exact current stats, resists, and bonuses. Would it be balanced with respect to the omen, and other T1 cruisers? I think not. |
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