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Mar'Dur Taren
The Copernicus Institute
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
The ability to attack members of your own corp is a very powerful right. The newest member can attack anyone he chooses and there are no controls on this ability. With the increasing frequency of Awoxing, this ability is now very dangerous. People joining a corp should earn the right to engage corp members not get it as a basic function of being in the corp.
Proposal : Make the ability to freely engage a corp member a corp role that can be assigned as is or attached to a title.
This would require a few extra colour tags or background colours so that people can tell the difference between a corpie that can be engaged and one that can't.
Reasoning: The ability to attack other corp members is a powerful ability. It is also being exploited mercilessly by people who have a low moral code. This means that in order for a corp to protect themselves they must have recruitment procedures which are very elaborate and verges on paranoid. This turns off a lot of new players and draws out the recruitment process considerably. It is now not safe to recruit someone without a full API, background check and killboard check. That still doesn't protect you fully. If we make the ability a corp role then Awoxers would have to work much harder to do what they do. They wont automagically be allowed to attack anyone in the corp. This gives the CEO and Directors a chance to actually get to know someone before deciding to trust them. |

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1627
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 09:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Or, rather than by default being mechanically granted protection from allowing bad apples into your corp, you could make the effort yourself to screen out the bad apples
shocking idea, i know |

Leto Thule
Sons of Retribution
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 14:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
So, after you get to trust someone, you THEN grant them roles to attack corp mates?
What?
Seems that the better idea is not to accept applications from everyone that applies...
Did you get safari'd by Psychotic Monk?  |

Lykouleon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
955
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 18:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
I hate to use a real-world analogy while talking about a video game, but can you give an example of how a real corporation would be able to limit roles to a person performing some form of corporate espionage?
No? I thought so.
EVE is a sandbox where we're given the opportunity to be about as dark and dirty as we want to be. Unless you've got a way to show how a real world corporation would be able to effectively do the same and how the idea would not ruin the sandbox aspect of the game, I can only suggest going back to some hardcore twink raiding. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3043
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 19:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
There is a "control" against AWOXing... it's called blowing him up! Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2513
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 19:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
AWOXing has a lot of value in EvE, and your suggestion pretty much eliminates it. Why would you do such a thing?
Good recruitment practices already eliminate most AWOX incidents! |

samualvimes
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
52
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 20:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
I can see where you're going with this but a little known important side effect you would crush is AWOXin...oh wait I see what you did there.
Tricksy you! |

Mar'Dur Taren
The Copernicus Institute
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 03:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Everyone has assumed that I have a very open recruitment process. They are wrong. My recruitment process is very involved and takes time. However new recruits in the game find it daunting and it often puts them off. I have to be completely paranoid to be able to catch the Awoxers. I get about one in three applicants are trying to do something nefarious.
Awoxing gives no value at all to Eve. It is just a way to ruin someone else's game. I consider people doing it to have a very poor moral code. If someone was seriously trying to insert a spy into a corp then they need to make a greater effort.
Ok To the real world argument. Seems the poster has not had a real job in the corporate sector. Firstly, the real world corp actually meets the person that they are going to enter into the corp. Next they are on a trial period. No new employee will have access to the corp accounts, the corp secure documents or assets, or to the corp passwords and full info network. It would take months before someone could really work into a position that would harm the corp and that would be only a minor nuisance. Furthermore, in the real world there are actual consequences. A bunch of security guys and police officers will turn up at your desk and cart you away. Your argument that the real world doesn't have greater security is completely invalid.
In my experience, the only people that would support Awoxing are people that enjoy screwing with people's game experience. That's a very twisted view of the world. I want to install some basic security for corporation in empire space. As I said in the original post, the ability to attack corp members in Empire freely is very powerful. It should be controlled.
Eve may be a sandbox but that means I should have ALL the tools to manage my corp that CCP can supply. This is one I believe is necessary. |

Sas'Sheren
The Copernicus Institute
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 04:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lykouleon wrote:I hate to use a real-world analogy while talking about a video game, but can you give an example of how a real corporation would be able to limit roles to a person performing some form of corporate espionage?
No? I thought so.
EVE is a sandbox where we're given the opportunity to be about as dark and dirty as we want to be. Unless you've got a way to show how a real world corporation would be able to effectively do the same and how the idea would not ruin the sandbox aspect of the game, I can only suggest going back to some hardcore twink raiding.
Every corporation i have worked for has massive security down to door cards to access the lunch room and restricted access to different site buildings. your access is given based on your roll, trust and length of service. But back to "in game". why do you have the ability to stop corp members from accessing a pos force field or even joining certain fleets. i think is is a good idea to help maintain a corps integrity and trust in their toons. |

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1634
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 10:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Remember when there was an advertisement for EVE, and the entire premise of the advertisement was that you can infiltrate a corporation and wreck it from the inside.
Remember how that ability, that freedom, was literally used to promote the game
and then OP comes along and says it adds no value and needs to be removed
hahahahahahahahhaha |

Leto Thule
Sons of Retribution
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 13:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mar'Dur Taren wrote:
Awoxing gives no value at all to Eve. It is just a way to ruin someone else's game. I consider people doing it to have a very poor moral code. If someone was seriously trying to insert a spy into a corp then they need to make a greater effort.
Awoxing is a very valuable tool. This game is ABOUT being able to do things like infiltrate and destroy a corp from the inside.
http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/707481/huge-eve-online-theft-amazes-45000-worth-of-in-game-cash-looted/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8132547.stm
Just a few examples, and Im not trying to be negative here. There are corporations who exist JUST to take others over, steal their resources, and kill their leadership.
Its taken me a bit to get my footing in this game, but at its heart, its mean, its nasty, and its devious. And most of us love it for that reason.
THIS is the best example I can find...
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-7-biggest-****-moves-in-history-online-gaming/ |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15396
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 13:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mar'Dur Taren wrote:Reasoning: The ability to attack other corp members is a powerful ability. It is also being exploited mercilessly by people who have a low moral code. Sorry but what do morals have to do with it? Using that argument is like saying you are against chess, due to regicide.
Ridiculous.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |

Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
589
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 16:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
I disagree with the proposal.
I don't do awoxing and I have had it done to a corp I was in . . . but I don't think that granting internal kill roles is the solution.
I will be very surprised if you find any support from any members of the CSM on this one.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 |

umbora
Aperture Reach C.L.O.N.E.
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 01:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
5mil says i can have a spy in his corp inside 3 weeks
|

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11244
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 12:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Why not cut to the heart of the actual problem and make it so that accepting new players into the corp is a grantable role. That way only responsible, accountable individuals who can be trusted to investigate applicants properly will be able to bring new people in.
1 Kings 12:11
|

umbora
Aperture Reach C.L.O.N.E.
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 22:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
It is already a Directors job/CEOs job to accept new members into a corp if you dont trust your director to do the job then why are they there. bad proposal!!! |

Kyon Rheyne
Frisky cancers Roamer Coalition
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 16:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
All those who are trying to retort with real world examples miss (I hope unintentionally) one very important thing. In real world the corporation in fact has ways to retaliate. Some corporations, not so law abiding as others, like different crime syndicates, could actually get the spy's family, gut his childrens in front of his wife, than make her eat their intestines, after what they would probably kill him.. or not. The spy knows it and, you see, this greatly discourage him from such actions. Even in case of corporatons of more widespread type, spy can easly hit the jail after being caught and get his life basically ruined. And he won't be able to change his body as easly as one can in EVE. So basically trying to refer to RL examples in case of EVE is horribly wrong way to put it. And thats why we have a full bunch of artificial restrictions. Like, one isn't allowed to impersonate other player or corporation. Why won't you object that descision then? In RL no one can forbid you that. But still you don't do that, for some reason. For the reason named "dire consiquences" which EVE universe devoid of. |

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
891
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 00:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
No. The Tears Must Flow |

Lykouleon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
976
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 21:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sas'Sheren wrote:Every corporation i have worked for has massive security down to door cards to access the lunch room and restricted access to different site buildings. your access is given based on your roll, trust and length of service. But back to "in game". why do you have the ability to stop corp members from accessing a pos force field or even joining certain fleets. i think is is a good idea to help maintain a corps integrity and trust in their toons. All of which mitigate but do not prevent. Corporation roles prevent things from being done, not mitigate. You can throw as many fancy-smancy keyfobs on a lunchroom door as you want, it's not going to change the person who uses the keycard.
Quote:All those who are trying to retort with real world examples miss (I hope unintentionally) one very important thing. In real world the corporation in fact has ways to retaliate. War decs, locator agents, mail spam about former wrongdoings, bounties (HEH, bad joke), hiring NOIR, posting about them...yeah, we have no way to retaliate against people who do naughty things in EVE. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword |

umbora
Aperture Reach C.L.O.N.E.
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 00:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mar'Dur Taren wrote:
Eve may be a sandbox but that means I should have ALL the tools to manage my corp that CCP can supply. This is one I believe is necessary.
This is a tool that no one in eve besides a few highsec carebears want the majority of players know and understand that AWOXing is a good part of eve and it allows you to get targets that you would not normally be able to get. I am guessing that you have had a rash of AWOXing incidents in your corp or this wouldn't even be an issue for you. Go put your big boy pants on and fight back against AWOXers if it means that much to you or go away cause crying on the forums is not going to get you anywhere. |

Kyon Rheyne
Frisky cancers Roamer Coalition
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 08:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lykouleon wrote:Quote:All those who are trying to retort with real world examples miss (I hope unintentionally) one very important thing. In real world the corporation in fact has ways to retaliate. War decs, locator agents, mail spam about former wrongdoings, bounties ( HEH, bad joke), hiring NOIR, posting about them...yeah, we have no way to retaliate against people who do naughty things in EVE. You aren't really trying to imply all that you've mentioned are equally disastrous outcomes to having your family tortured or your life and career ruined, are you? War decs, that can be made totally useless just by all members of targeted corp unsubscribing from it for a week. And whom you would declare it to? To some NPC corp this alt of an awoxer belonged to before you've let him in your corp? Mail spam of specific account, which is just a mere nuisanse, and due to multi-account nature of EVE gameplay won't do any harm at all to a player this account belongs to. Posting on forums which only will attracts criticism and ironies. Is that all you've got? Its nothing, and no awoxer/corp spy will ever be frightened by those. He just will create/buy another char, in most cases, it will already be another alt of him. The EVE universe offers no solid ways to retaliate in such cases, period. Thats why we have some rules that limit player's activities in the game. No impersonation, no repeating, meaningless harrasment of other players - like those. Because there is no way to fight it like you would do IRL. What topicstarter is trying to propose is just another such rule, thats all. There is no way to somehow check backstory of newly accepted corp member, other than employment history, which hardly can be of help in case of some alt or buyed character. There is no way you could somehow spy on your members, make all their activities logged for your Security Department to analyze; you can't even trust their former employers because they could be those who are ploting against you in the first place. You can't monitor their communications because no sane awoxer/spy will use ingame mail for such talks, and even chat system (which you can't monitor at all, even through API). In cases where RL human will defenitly know he will pay dear price, EVE awoxer who are using fresh alt for the job knows he will pay nothing at all. Thats why this should attract attention of game designers crew. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11324
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 08:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Did an awoxer kill your ability to use paragraphs?
1 Kings 12:11
|

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1739
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 12:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kyon Rheyne wrote:Lykouleon wrote:Quote:All those who are trying to retort with real world examples miss (I hope unintentionally) one very important thing. In real world the corporation in fact has ways to retaliate. War decs, locator agents, mail spam about former wrongdoings, bounties ( HEH, bad joke), hiring NOIR, posting about them...yeah, we have no way to retaliate against people who do naughty things in EVE. You aren't really trying to imply all that you've mentioned are equally disastrous outcomes to having your family tortured or your life and career ruined, are you? War decs, that can be made totally useless just by all members of targeted corp unsubscribing from it for a week. And whom you would declare it to? To some NPC corp this alt of an awoxer belonged to before you've let him in your corp? Mail spam of specific account, which is just a mere nuisanse, and due to multi-account nature of EVE gameplay won't do any harm at all to a player this account belongs to. Posting on forums which only will attracts criticism and ironies. Is that all you've got? Its nothing, and no awoxer/corp spy will ever be frightened by those. He just will create/buy another char, in most cases, it will already be another alt of him. The EVE universe offers no solid ways to retaliate in such cases, period. Thats why we have some rules that limit player's activities in the game. No impersonation, no repeating, meaningless harrasment of other players - like those. Because there is no way to fight it like you would do IRL. What topicstarter is trying to propose is just another such rule, thats all. There is no way to somehow check backstory of newly accepted corp member, other than employment history, which hardly can be of help in case of some alt or buyed character. There is no way you could somehow spy on your members, make all their activities logged for your Security Department to analyze; you can't even trust their former employers because they could be those who are ploting against you in the first place. You can't monitor their communications because no sane awoxer/spy will use ingame mail for such talks, and even chat system (which you can't monitor at all, even through API). In cases where RL human will defenitly know he will pay dear price, EVE awoxer who are using fresh alt for the job knows he will pay nothing at all. Thats why this should attract attention of game designers crew.
No. It shouldn't attract the attention of the game designers. The game designers explicitly advertise these god damn mechanics in their advertisements for the game, showcasing it as a bloody feature. Are you lot so off base that you don't understand that CCP want this kind of treachery and backstabbing to be possible? Have you missed the point of this game entirely? Bloody hell! |

Baaldor
Capsuleer Outfitters Easily Excited
71
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 14:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
You know what is so great about this game, you can **** with the minds of other players with out even firing a shot..... |

umbora
Aperture Reach C.L.O.N.E.
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 00:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Did an awoxer kill your ability to use paragraphs?
No but I think an AWOXER touched him in a bad place. who's AWOXing who |

Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
50
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 16:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
Great Idea.
Its about time AWOXing needed more effort than clicking the apply button and then AWOX.
Corp newbies ( including awoxers ) should earn trust on the job not at the front door.
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