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ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
118
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Posted - 2013.08.13 21:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Previous to a recent patch, many PVP'ers in the game were annoyed with the ability of people ratting to log-out (usually in tanky ships such as capitals) as long as they could survive the old 60 second timer.
Now when you are "flagged" (PVE/PVP etc) your ship will remain but try to e-warp out during a disconnection... however all your mods will deactivate. PVP will make that flag continual, making logging out to avoid PVP impossible (a good move)
(Intentionally or unintentionally this hurt people with shaky hardware / internet connections or dropped packets between your home and CCP's servers, as once a disconnect occurs your ships modules power off leaving you little chance to reconnect with a ship still intact.)
Recently Bitten Inc. planned a very well executed trap for No Holes Barred in their home system.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1kapzg/no_holes_barred_dropped_in_own_system/
This trap however relied on "logging in" to the system with ships and pilots who were snuck into No Holes Barred system.
Obviously Bitten Inc. did a great job and were able to get a good number of kills and presumably exfiled safely.
However, this begs into question the balance of no long being able to "log out" to prevent PVP but still be able to "log in" to attack someone.
The mechanics of this have never sat well with me frankly.
Now, I love the planning and strategy used to effectively pull off an op like this... all the way up to the point of people logging out their toons in systems to catch someone.
Any ideas that could be implemented to mitigate this? Or is this "Eve Offline" and as a community we are fine with this tactic being used.
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ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
119
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Posted - 2013.08.13 22:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
121
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Posted - 2013.08.14 17:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
If a group has to use a Titan to kill someone, then we can discuss if Titan Jump Portals are overpowered or not
But at least players are logged in, using "normal" game mechanics to attack another pilot. They are visable on the in-game map (outside of wormholes)
Logging out prevents any chance of gathering intel of your attackers in anyway. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
121
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Posted - 2013.08.14 17:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Corun Deluse wrote: Overall, logon traps are annoying, but there are several more effective ways to kill you that don't involve waiting on the character screen that are just as difficult to detect.
However in all other cases you mentioned, with current game mechanics, you have some intel on the attackers.
This is what log in attacks prey on, people who think the area is relatively safe and then put themselves in the open.
Wormhole log-in traps make this issue even more glaring. No one can expect the average wormhole group to be able to watch their system 24/7.
So, you figure out when your target is least active, you run into their system, don't put a POS up (they might see it on d-scan) and you wait for them play EVE.
I admire the time, planning and energy it takes to attack someone. However logging out in a system to avoid being seen using in-game mechanics needs to be stopped.
Also, as the years go on its becoming faster and faster to log into EVE. From client side improvements to faster hardware on CCP's side.
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ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
121
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Posted - 2013.08.14 18:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Corun Deluse wrote:
The only advantage to log-on traps I can see in wormhole space is seeding capitals in a target system because of mass restrictions (3caps per hole).
That "one" advantage is completely unbalanced.
Attackers can then sneak into a system (probably undetected depending on how active / awake the other side is)
Put all their ships + capitals into random safe spots
Have a cloaked scanning watching the target
and jump on them when the right opportunity presents itself.
The defenders on the other hand are easy to find, they logout inside of their POS's.
It's not balanced and its an exploitation of game mechanics. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
122
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Posted - 2013.08.14 20:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Acidictadpole wrote: It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that everyone else is safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop.
I think we are throwing around words like exploit inaccurately. An exploit is what CCP determines an exploit to be.
When PVE's would log out of EVE to escape PVP, that wasn't an exploit, but it was considered by many a "cheap" tactic which they took advantage of. It wasn't in the spirit of the game.
CCP agreed, they made logging out to avoid PVP impossible without labeling it an exploit.
Using log-in traps to catch someone off guard =/= using titans to hot drop someone.
Are titans portals overpowered? maybe.... But its a 100b isk ship that needs to have SOME purpose in the game. We can discuss its future in some other thread.
Log-in traps are felt (at least by me) to be against the spirit of EVE. The designers didn't intend for you to log out to escape PVP and I would imagine they also didn't intend you to use log in traps to engage in PVP.
Now, I could be 100% wrong here. Until CCP decides to chime in and declare that log in traps ARE part of the game design we currently are working within a "gray" area.
Until they decide otherwise, like they did with logging out while in PVE. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
126
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Posted - 2013.08.15 18:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vexed Nova wrote: Someone mentioned Titan Bridges and blopsing. You can't lump the two [lo on/off & blops/titan bridge] together. They are fundamentally different even though their use and outcome are similar. Blopsing and Titan bridges are valid "tactics" while log on/off traps are a creative use of "game mechanics".
Logging out to avoid PVP was just as creative as well then?
If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not? |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
126
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Posted - 2013.08.15 22:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
You people keep throwing up "LOCAL IS THE PROBLEM AAAAAHHHHHH" defense are driving me to drink.....
Your being intellectually dishonest and Its complete whitewash
The perfect example of how broken this "mechanic" is (if you would please read my very 1st post in this thread) is the example used in a WH fight.
There IS NO LOCAL in WH space. Its gone. All you "I hate local" people have no other defense on why log-in traps should be allowed to continue when you use local as a defense, when the example that best illustrates the problem is INSIDE A WORMHOLE.
This is a cheap tactic, used because they couldn't find any other way to bring enough firepower to attack the people living in the WH without taking losses.
Once again, I admire the time, dedication and planning needed to pull this off. However they should have been forced to setup a POS OR have such a delay when trying to log-in to attack someone that it would be untenable.
Just to be clear
THIS HAPPENED IN A WORMHOLE |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
126
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Posted - 2013.08.16 00:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
You bring up many good points, if any solution implemented is too far into the margins
I would only ask that a mechanic be put into place to prevent "Log-in / Gank / Run" type of ops
Also, in an ideal world, ships logged out in a system should be able to be scanned out (not found, but able to be noticed).
You shouldn't be able to log out 10 dreads in someones system and have any idea they are there unless you have enough people to watch the system / wh's / etc for 24 hours a day..... That is not realistic.
I am not looking to prevent people from playing EVE, but for the ganks (like the one in the 1st post) there was a short window.... perhaps 10-15 minutes max, that the attackers had to get in and get out.
Logging in and being able to instantly target / kill someone without the opposition having any mechanic to know there is a possibility you could be jumped on is broken.
Also, I might have the mechanics wrong, but I *think* that if you are in PVE, log out, then get attacked the PVP timer goes into effect.... locking your ship in game... |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
127
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Posted - 2013.08.16 18:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
seany1212 wrote: This ability has been around since day one of EvE, OP has only just gotten around to being killed by it and has created this spurge of a thread.
Acutally I've never personally experienced it that I can recall, but that doesnt mean I dont think its a good game "mechanic"
seany1212 wrote: I think overall it does come down to local, feeling too secure in your intel of local (entitlist?) as if local did not exist (as in wormhole space) how would you know that it was a log-on trap that was performed?
Its not a local problem as I stated above. Its a problem of people able to "hide" ships outside of the current game mechanics. Logged off ships are not able to be noticed by any game mechanic. This problem is exacerbated in WH's, but it exists in all areas of EVE.
Unless CCP comes into the thread and says log-in traps are something they are happy with and part of the grand EVE design I will keep contending that this is an unintended consequence that hasn't had the light shined on it in a public manner. it is absolutely unintended that people are able to "seed" capitals, log them out inside a WH and then wait and do a mass login to trap someone. There are some very commendable things occurring there, PVP is happening (good), planning, strategy, risk calculation etc. But in the end they are using a broken mechanic to try and "gank" someone that wouldn't be possible if else wise.
seany1212 wrote: There are plenty of mechanics to project a considerable force on top of your position very quickly, there will more than likely be mechanics that will be come up with that you'll proceed to cry about in the future.
I am being intellectually honest, are you? Titan / blackop's hot dropping require you to be in-game and use specialized ships to accomplish this task. (we can argue if this is overpowered in another thread, frankly if I think about it I can swing either direction.) Trapping someone near a gate and jumping in from the other side with your fleet to kill them requires you to be in-game. These examples involve being logged into EVE and with proper scouting can be mostly avoided (or at least give your intel a chance to detect them).
Without staying logged in 24/7, you wouldnt know people there was x number of ships hiding in your system, logged out sitting on the character selection screen waiting to gank you.
TL;DR? Using in-game mechanics... good.... hiding your fleet by logging it out to gain an advantage, bad... |
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ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
129
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Posted - 2013.08.16 21:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Explain how any anti-login trap mechanic isn't going to ruin the day of literally everyone who ever disconnects in a PVP situation. Log back in in time, and you still can't do anything because of a game mechanic added to combat a niche tactic...
I think one solution might be making any piloted ships logged off in space "detectable"
You wouldnt be able to find those ships or pinpoint them, but CCP could allow you to take a headcount of the ships logged out.
IE there is 10 ships logged out (piloted) in this system. Add it to the scanner system.
Allowing people to know WHAT ships are logged out (IE, 5 battleships, 3 carriers, 1 super) might be a bit too much information.
Frankly I am not sure what fix is best, but certainty the current mechanic is not what was intended. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
135
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Posted - 2013.08.21 13:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system. I cover this in more detail here.
Explain how local chat is a factor in wormholes.... which was the original scenario presented in the very 1st post....
Which I assume you didnt read. |
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