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Sukar	Posted - 2005.12.27 07:50:00 - [1] I've been playing almost 2 years (I stopped for about 8 or so months, my main has 12 million sps, my 2nd account has over 10 million sps, and I have a 3rd account that is at 4 or so million), and as much as I'm coming to enjoy the game, I find that its very difficult to get friends to join for very long once they realize how very long they have in front of them before they even become decent. So I was thinking has it ever been bandied about that after your trial period is over and until you hit a fair number of sp's (say 4million, I can't remember what is decent for a combat character, my 3rd alt is just a CEO skill/research account) that the sp's would accelerate faster, like 25% faster or something. You could even justify it by saying that they had developed better neural learning software or something. I realize the system is supposed to be self-fixing because of the fact that you can train up to 3 or 4 very quickly, then you only get marginal benefits from the 5s that take the longest, but with the latest few patches it seems to me that you can not only some significantly better tech items once you get the skills that are unlocked by having a few 5s. Not only that, but I think many players really want to play some of the newer ships but the task seems impossible, dauntingly so, and seeing the time it takes to train what the new basic skills are would help welcome the players. At any rate, its just something I think about, when I'm talking to friends and telling them about my (mis)adventures and they tell me how they putted around an asteroid belt for a few days and then quit. Sukar http://www.dndorks.com
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.12.27 08:03:00 - [2] Edited by: Tripoli on 27/12/2005 08:04:50 Not a new idea, and definately one CCP will not implement. You already stated the first argument as to why (level 5 skills not worth the time to train). As for those same level 5 skills being needed to fly better ships, well that's how IMO it should be. But here's the thing...those nifty new T2 ships everyone's raving about....aren't all that great. Don't get me wrong...they are better than T1 ships. Just...not all that much better. It's more about the outfitting and skill at flying your ships, than it is about which tech level your ship is. (By skill, I don't mean your character sheet skills.) Just my 2 cents. ---
AdriaLima	Posted - 2005.12.27 08:11:00 - [3] Well if enough people vote for it CCP has not much choice...we pay their bills. Ofcourse its their game and all but without people playing it, or without them enjoying themselves, you dont have much of a gam in the first place. Ive reached that point where in gunnery (for example) most of my skills have reached lvl 4 and now i gotta decide what to lvl to 5 ..considering i really want to fly an enyo of some small craft ive been upping gallente frigate to 5 ..doing some fast thinking i realised in order to get a proper ship with outfits and all that i'd have to wait at least another month.. For me thats a long time for something "so simple" and as the topic starter pointed out there are alot of new ships out there so it kinda sux that its gonna take forever. I realise its no good having people get all the best stuff really quickly ..thats not what im advocating for.. but lets face it there does come a point where you'll find yourself logging in only to switch skills. (and thats cause i feel i not ready for pvp yet in my case) .. Anyways i made a long reply here lol guess i needed it out of my mind.
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2005.12.27 08:14:00 - [4] Edited by: Saeris Tal''Urduar on 27/12/2005 08:14:27 Originally by: Sukar At any rate, its just something I think about, when I'm talking to friends and telling them about my (mis)adventures and they tell me how they putted around an asteroid belt for a few days and then quit. I'm gonna try and do this without being flamey. But this game is not for your friends if all they can commit too is a few days.
Jaketh Ivanes	Posted - 2005.12.27 08:55:00 - [5] Even I, who have played for about 2.5 years, sometimes find the amount of traning needed to be disheartning. But then, i wouldn't want everyone to have everything at their disposal after a few days. One of the most wonderfull things about EVE, is that your not SP dependent. A 5 mill SP char can defeat a 30 mill SP char, just because the 5 mill char have specialized from start. Its a common mistake to belive that the more skill points equals more chance of victory. Its where those skill points are placed that counts. And to the OP's friends, stick around for more than a few days .
Shittake	Posted - 2005.12.27 09:02:00 - [6] I am sure some veterans like me would say: "Great but I worked VERY hard since week 1 of this game to get my 41mil SP and we didn't have the advanced learning skills available to all today's newer players (which by default) makes it easier for them to learn faster from the start than I ever did". But I'm not saying it, someone else do please.
Snapes	Posted - 2005.12.27 09:46:00 - [7] Has anyone also considerd that skill training time also has an effect on the player market!! the faster ppl train their skills to fly a ship or use a module the more demand there will be for said items. you dont train for a battle ship and not buy one! not to mention it keeps your players happy because we all know how short our attn span is
Agent Kenshin	Posted - 2005.12.27 10:08:00 - [8] Originally by: **take I am sure some veterans like me would say: "Great but I worked VERY hard since week 1 of this game to get my 41mil SP and we didn't have the advanced learning skills available to all today's newer players (which by default) makes it easier for them to learn faster from the start than I ever did". But I'm not saying it, someone else do please. Yes we worked hard to get our SP to where we have them now. I started the game before we had t2 ships and everything. And we did everything in tech 1. You wanna know what some of us remember a point in the game where working for a imicus was a hard task. (Before battleships even existed in the game and then when we got battleships we didnt even have large guns to fit on them) Eventually we may have boosters(drugs) to boost certain atrributes to increase skill training time but until then we will have to make do with what we have. Originally by:** MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers' ehehehh....
Ra'virr	Posted - 2005.12.27 10:49:00 - [9] Wierd. I just trained a month with an alt, and he¦s ready to PVP full time. You just need to specialize in something, and it wont take long. Oh, and that month inludes learning, engineering etc.
Vince Draken	Posted - 2005.12.27 10:54:00 - [10] Edited by: Vince Draken on 27/12/2005 11:05:11 Buy some implants... They didnt exist for the first like 6 month of eve and the advanced learning skills came even later. You have it much better than us, we didnt even get advanced clones for a few months, k? I forgot to mention balance. Many of us oldtimers have what I deem 'useless' skillpoints from crosstraing back in the dark ages when cerain weapon systems sucked/pwn'd and we had to train the flavor of the month. You now have the luxury of specialization that we did not have, not too mention pretty well balanced weapons/races. The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.12.27 11:00:00 - [11] Originally by: ****take I am sure some veterans like me would say: "Great but I worked VERY hard since week 1 of this game to get my 41mil SP and we didn't have the advanced learning skills available to all today's newer players (which by default) makes it easier for them to learn faster from the start than I ever did". But I'm not saying it, someone else do please. I can vouch for that. Been playing since Juli of 2003 and tbh, I think new players of today got it easier. Sure they can't get into the newest ships right away, but if you look at the requirement for some of the ships released in RMR, its some level 5 skills that need to be put under the belt. It gives room for newer players to "cover some ground". Level 1->4 not that hard to achieve. Level 4->5 now there is the long stretches. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
CelticKnight	Posted - 2005.12.27 11:23:00 - [12] If ya cant put up with WAITING for something. go back to playing Unreal Tourney mate. Ya have to grind in World of Warcraft, and EQ online. least in eve your grinding can be done while you sleep If you dont have SP.. shrug play something for a few months while you accumulate SP. if you just want to jump in and be the best at your game.. go play Unreal Tournament 2004 Eris Discordia - Greek Goddess of Chaos and Discord
Sharcy	Posted - 2005.12.27 12:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Sukar I find that its very difficult to get friends to join for very long once they realize how very long they have in front of them before they even become decent. This is the second thread in a row I've read with the "I can never catch up" argument. Why do so many ppl want to turn EVE into a ****-measuring contest? For me, it's not about how good I am compared to others, but how I can advance myself; to be the best me I can be. -- Press [Alt][F4] for my witty signature...
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.12.27 12:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Edited by: Saeris Tal''Urduar on 27/12/2005 08:14:27 Originally by: Sukar At any rate, its just something I think about, when I'm talking to friends and telling them about my (mis)adventures and they tell me how they putted around an asteroid belt for a few days and then quit. I'm gonna try and do this without being flamey. But this game is not for your friends if all they can commit too is a few days. yup, i agree here - do the good thing and buy them a copy of CS as a late christmas present
Sheriff Jones	Posted - 2005.12.27 12:55:00 - [15] Sheriff Jones sets skill training.* Right, i'm off to make some ISK needed for the skill i'm training for. Anyone get the point?
Taketa De	Posted - 2005.12.27 14:05:00 - [16] Accelerating skill learning for new characters only would be rather unfair. Old characters worked for theirs and so it would diminish their investment. What I could imagine however is to generally accelerate all skill learning in the game by anywhere from 25% - 100%. There are a lot more skills in the game now and they are ever increasing so this would ease the burden somewhat and still allow new players to get into action quicker.
Elsebeth Rhiannon	Posted - 2005.12.27 15:03:00 - [17] Gradient has had several new people joining in during the last half a year or so, and many of them simply love the game despite flying with people who have been here almost two years. Yes, it takes time before you are nber, but one of the good things about EVE is that you can participate on operations with more experienced people even with a relatively new character. On operations, every mining laser / tackler frigate (pick whichever fits your preferences) helps. If your friends did not find the game enjoyable, maybe it is because you did not include them in what you do enough, or because they are inherently unsuitable to EVE playing style (which is way less about levelling and getting into the uber stuff than many other games)? Peace in a pod
Summersnow	Posted - 2005.12.27 15:16:00 - [18] I don't agree with acelerated learning per se, but I do beleive new characters should start with more skills at character creation.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2005.12.27 15:21:00 - [19] The Golden Skill Rule: Past 5m skillpoints, there isn't much you can't do. The majority of training after that goes on doing it better. ------------- Please make Minmatar overpowered, CCP
DeadDuck	Posted - 2005.12.27 15:23:00 - [20] The best way to "jump" the huge gap is to specialize in one kind of game play, one kind of ship and one kind of race ... I only fly amarr ships, dont have a single SP in missiles because amarr ships are mainly beam/pulse lasers. My shield SP are close to 0 because amarr ships tank using armour ... etc etc. etc.. Following this line, if you specialize in interceptors, for example and in one kind of interceptors ( crusader for example ) you can beat a player that is playing the game for more then 2 years ... of course he will have 20m sp more but ... if you're flying a inty and he is flying a inty he cannot use most of the sp he has ... He can use a Tec2 Tachyon Beam Laser and you can only use a Tec 1, he has a BS level 5 Skill and you hardly can fly them ... But if you're specialized in flying a specific ship, the older player can in the max be has good has you... and with some luck you will be even stronger then the uber player flying that specific ship ...
Omber Zombie	Posted - 2005.12.27 16:05:00 - [21] we get a lot of new players in our corp, so I'll try and speak from a perspective that I have gotten from the last few months: increasing the overall speed of learning for new players would harm their game experience. Part of the game is figuring out what skills you need for the next shiny ship/module you want to use, making the isk to buy and train the skills needed to use those items, and while training those skills, making more isk to actually buy/build them. Having people get the skills to use these things without actually being able to afford them just annoys people - they get bored, frustrated and end up quitting. Now, the only thing I can think of to help new players is that for every new account purchased - the first 2 characters created get all the basic learning skills at lvl2. Why? well, first off it allows people to make a mistake with their 1st char and not be penalised, secondly it cuts out a few days of training which most new players 'have' to do nowdays so they can actually train other things than learning. Yes, this means they start off with more skills than vets, but tbh, I doubt any vet would have a problem with new players getting those few sp's for free. ---------------------- Originally by: Seleene I maintain that OZ is evil and have nothing further to add.
Ralitge boyter	Posted - 2005.12.27 16:10:00 - [22] I guess CCP has stated this quite often before: Specialize and you will win. It is not about the number of skill points it is about what you do with them and where you choose to stick them. I for instance have 17M skill points been playing nearly 2 years and I am hardly able to fire a gun. (I use missiles) I can fly all T2 barges but have not flown a normal barge for more than 10 hours. All in all I am not specialized and am now paying the price for it. I have to play catch up with starting players who have "just" 5 million SP and have far better gunnery skills than me, or are getting ready to step in a freighter and make major ISK selling them selfs to others who need to transport major amounts of stuff. I for one hope CCP will never change this most esential of EVE game mechanics as this would ruin the game for me. ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me.
Stogee	Posted - 2005.12.27 16:15:00 - [23] Well it seems that a level 5 skill requires triple the amount of time a lvl 4 does. I was thinking instead of speeding up training that maybe they could reduce lvl training from triple to just double the amount of time of a lvl 4. Eg, average lvl 4 is just over 5 days training? a lvl is just over 15? Why not make it 10 days?
Sorja	Posted - 2005.12.27 16:27:00 - [24] Accelerating training times over the board would indeed be nice. And probably needed to maintain some balance between newcomers and veterans. Many state that 5 in a skill isn't that important, but they conveniently forget that: 1¦ More and more 5 skills are needed (not only for efficency but also for the lower price of tech II modules compared to their tech I counterpart) 2¦ A player with multiple 5 skills is much more effective than a player with the same skills at 4. Those +5% bonuses add up quite nicely. 3¦ The biggest ships (CCP will probably introduce more and more 'high end' content to keep vets happy) require lots of 5 skills, some requiring a month to train. Also, don't forget that 'specialization' is wishful thinking. You can't know what you want to do before giving a hand at it, and many ship classes require high skills to be decently effective, so you can't tell if you'll like some shipclass just flying one with skills at 2 or 3. Not even mentioning that limiting a player to something is bad because it prevents from enjoying many aspects of the game. In the state of EVE, I can't think of any game with such long training times (aka grinding). So, cutting on the training times would benefit everybody.
Stogee	Posted - 2005.12.27 16:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Sorja In the state of EVE, I can't think of any game with such long training times (aka grinding). So, cutting on the training times would benefit everybody. But on the otherhand, is that really fair to the older players who have had to pay subcription for years to get where they are?
Mantar Mattox	Posted - 2005.12.27 16:43:00 - [26] Why is everyone in such a bloody hurry? _________________________________ Even samurai have teddybears And even teddybears get drunk
Vince Draken	Posted - 2005.12.27 16:48:00 - [27] Originally by: Sorja Accelerating training times over the board would indeed be nice. And probably needed to maintain some balance between newcomers and veterans. Many state that 5 in a skill isn't that important, but they conveniently forget that: 1¦ More and more 5 skills are needed (not only for efficency but also for the lower price of tech II modules compared to their tech I counterpart) 2¦ A player with multiple 5 skills is much more effective than a player with the same skills at 4. Those +5% bonuses add up quite nicely. 3¦ The biggest ships (CCP will probably introduce more and more 'high end' content to keep vets happy) require lots of 5 skills, some requiring a month to train. Also, don't forget that 'specialization' is wishful thinking. You can't know what you want to do before giving a hand at it, and many ship classes require high skills to be decently effective, so you can't tell if you'll like some shipclass just flying one with skills at 2 or 3. Not even mentioning that limiting a player to something is bad because it prevents from enjoying many aspects of the game. In the state of EVE, I can't think of any game with such long training times (aka grinding). So, cutting on the training times would benefit everybody. That seals it for me. If you are for it, it is a bad bad bad idea. I still cringe over your missle whine/rants. The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
MalaMo	Posted - 2005.12.27 17:38:00 - [28] I would like to see pre-req for advance learning skill change to level 4 of basic learning skills. It would help alot. Implants are just to expensive for begginers especially if they want to pVp. ------------- Don't drink and drive, logon to EVE and fly.
Kurren	Posted - 2005.12.27 17:53:00 - [29] Originally by: AdriaLima Well if enough people vote for it CCP has not much choice...we pay their bills. Ofcourse its their game and all but without people playing it, or without them enjoying themselves, you dont have much of a gam in the first place. Ive reached that point where in gunnery (for example) most of my skills have reached lvl 4 and now i gotta decide what to lvl to 5 ..considering i really want to fly an enyo of some small craft ive been upping gallente frigate to 5 ..doing some fast thinking i realised in order to get a proper ship with outfits and all that i'd have to wait at least another month.. For me thats a long time for something "so simple" and as the topic starter pointed out there are alot of new ships out there so it kinda sux that its gonna take forever. I realise its no good having people get all the best stuff really quickly ..thats not what im advocating for.. but lets face it there does come a point where you'll find yourself logging in only to switch skills. (and thats cause i feel i not ready for pvp yet in my case) .. Anyways i made a long reply here lol guess i needed it out of my mind. There are a lot more people "paying CCP's bills" that don't want the change than do. Everybody knows that training a skill to lvl 5 sucks. BUUUT... if you want the reward you have to do the work, or else there is no reward. Skill points are nothing compared to skill. It's been pointed out that a T2 ship and a T1 ship differ only a little. The pilots are the ones that decide the end of a battle, not the SP, not the equipment (though that does help, but is up to the pilot), and not the ship (of course, a Raven will spank a Condor, but don't be dumb enough to fight a Raven in a Condor... that too, is up to the pilot). The OP has suggested that training a skill to lvl 5 is pretty much a waist of time. He's right. If you tain a skill to level 3 you get more than half of what that skill has to offer, level 4 is only a bit longer for 80% of the skill. Unless you need to or want to, don't bother training a skill to level 5. AND, in my days, I've seen T1 frigates do an a$$load of things I never thought they could do, but they only do them thanks to the pilots. You don't have to be an older player, just a smart one. ************************************************* Let's be honest, you know you think it's funny! =)
Kurren	Posted - 2005.12.27 18:09:00 - [30] Originally by: Sorja Accelerating training times over the board would indeed be nice. And probably needed to maintain some balance between newcomers and veterans. Many state that 5 in a skill isn't that important, but they conveniently forget that: 1¦ More and more 5 skills are needed (not only for efficency but also for the lower price of tech II modules compared to their tech I counterpart) 2¦ A player with multiple 5 skills is much more effective than a player with the same skills at 4. Those +5% bonuses add up quite nicely. 3¦ The biggest ships (CCP will probably introduce more and more 'high end' content to keep vets happy) require lots of 5 skills, some requiring a month to train. Also, don't forget that 'specialization' is wishful thinking. You can't know what you want to do before giving a hand at it, and many ship classes require high skills to be decently effective, so you can't tell if you'll like some shipclass just flying one with skills at 2 or 3. Not even mentioning that limiting a player to something is bad because it prevents from enjoying many aspects of the game. In the state of EVE, I can't think of any game with such long training times (aka grinding). So, cutting on the training times would benefit everybody. Long training times are NOT supposed to benefit everybody. They're supposed to benefit those that ACTUALLY TRAIN THEM! New players don't need to skyrocket in SP's... they need to learn the game. They need to know that shooting somebody in Empire will get your ship blown up LONG before they try it in a BS. As stated before... if you want a game that you can be best at in a few days... go play something else (WoW comes to mind... same with CS:So...). If you want something that will benefit everybody, mine and build, mine and build, mine and build... I'm not playing this game for ease. I'm playing this game because it's a challenge. If you want an easy game... go somewhere else... I hear EQ2 is made for infants to 5 year olds... go play that. ************************************************* Let's be honest, you know you think it's funny! =)

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