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Iseeu	Posted - 2005.12.29 17:16:00 - [61] Don't bash the WCS, because once they are nerfed your not going to see ANY fights when you outnumber your enemies.
Iseeu	Posted - 2005.12.29 17:16:00 - [62] Don't bash the WCS, because once they are nerfed your not going to see ANY fights when you outnumber your enemies.
Barak Torginn	Posted - 2005.12.29 17:26:00 - [63] Originally by: Tar Ecthelion Remove killmails Make warp scrambling chance based Make WCS reduce the chance of being scrambled Either introduce more tech2 BPO's, or reduce production time on existing ones Make a viable anti-pirate career by somehow implementing less security hits for fighting in low sec against declared pirate corps... and give pirates a boost by letting their corp declare themselves asEVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums
Barak Torginn	Posted - 2005.12.29 17:26:00 - [64] Originally by: Tar Ecthelion Remove killmails Make warp scrambling chance based Make WCS reduce the chance of being scrambled Either introduce more tech2 BPO's, or reduce production time on existing ones Make a viable anti-pirate career by somehow implementing less security hits for fighting in low sec against declared pirate corps... and give pirates a boost by letting their corp declare themselves as a pirate corp and getting some sort of benefit for doing so. I don't usually do this, but QFT!
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2005.12.29 17:32:00 - [65] Originally by: Iseeu Don't bash the WCS, because once they are nerfed your not going to see ANY fights when you outnumber your enemies. Yeah I heard some talk that they have been considering some sort of honor point system. If you attack too small enemies with too big fleet, you get no "points". If you attack a similar fleet with some tolerance you get some. Assault something larger with smaller and you get a lot. Then later those points are good for something. Like getting the ships replenished or some rare items or something. There's some thought into it, trying to re-think the pvp.. I hope it sees the daylight some day.
nahtoh	Posted - 2005.12.29 18:14:00 - [66] Originally by: Breed Love Funny how people turn a completely different issue into another WCS rant. Seriosuly, why do so many fit these WCS? Cause they are afraid to lose their ships, i.e. their property etc. Some ppl may go on saying that this is all just a game and thus has no value, but this is not true at all. Every in-game item has a value, measured in time. Time spent to obtain it. Now where im getting at is that that time is ridiculously high in eve. This is especially true for tech II ships and items. And thats the wrong part. Ran from a one 2 one last night...did not use stabs just did not feel like possably losing my HAC, MWDed out of scram range and legged it. My choice was run, his choice was try and kill me. Both choices are equally as vauld. Last month lost a HAC providing cover for a mining op total LEERRRROOOOYYY charge. One was worth it one was not (not to mention it was a cool fight and very close fought), this fight was let a vagabond get range of about 7 large barges or close and fight. I fight when I consider it worth while I really don't care what my oppenent thinks if I run or fight. I am not a PvPer but I don't think i qualify as a carebear...(granted i ehthier run or lose fights ) "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
Summersnow	Posted - 2005.12.29 18:27:00 - [67] Originally by: Deros hippoking, but what you say there has nothing wrong with it. 2 stabs isnt a problem, 4, 5, 7, that is a problem. I believe the OP said he was easily able to get an effective -6 on the target ship. given that I'd have to say 7 warpstabs ain't a problem. in a game with the high consequences of loss eve has the final defense, the ability to run, has always got to be stronger then the ability to prevent someone from running.
Josarian Lysandor	Posted - 2005.12.29 19:31:00 - [68] Eve doesn't provide enough opportunities...or even reasons to have a last stand. Unless you are a 0.0 power or trying to be, there is no reason to fight at all economically. Part of the problem is NPC stations and NPC space being so large. ~Victory is the weakness of the enemy. I began as ActiveX, I am no longer. I became Sobeseki Pawi, I will be no longer.
dailyhazard	Posted - 2005.12.29 19:41:00 - [69] I agree with you about noone wanting to fight anymore its pretty stupid tbh. Especially people who tell you to come fight and when you do they just insta dock and smack you in the station all night. Wcs are useful is some situation but annoying in others. ------------------------------------------------ need a sig tbfh
dailyhazard	Posted - 2005.12.29 19:43:00 - [70] Originally by: Vang Vorkain Originally by: Ronald Speirs Originally by: Lord Frost Yes, PVP sucks... but why does it suck? ... because of the PVPers! duh! You guys brought this on yourselves. Blob after blob after blob. The only tactic you all had was to out man the other guy. Now, you all resort to massive gank squads looking for 1 or 2 lone targets and a sure win. What did you think would happen? Those sitting around, not wanting to pvp would just accept gank losses? PvP has turned into PvNIP (Player vs Non-Interested Player). Now I'm sure there are occasions, perhaps like yours, where the targets are legit... however, if you cant beat them at their tactics, then obviously you need to change yours. A slab of WCS all in low slots is a viable option to anyone that knows ganks will come from chestpoppers outnumbering them. I dont know what you expect... perhaps you are just frustrated you can't beat the people you once used to own. I'm guessing next time you'll bring more mates with more scramblers to increase your I WIN motive. You asked what has happened to PvP... look in the mirror, you'll find the answer. Or... just dont whine about every little instance you encounter. See this is what i'm talking about. Pvp to you, sir is getting ganked in lowsec. Well....if thats what you want avoid all you have to do is take the jita express to your agent or roid field or wherever in 1.0. Pvp to me is a rush 1v1 nothing can beat it. Till you know what you are talking about is suggest you stfu. Thanks, :D LOL sorry but i agree with the other person! i dont pvp and for one of many players on eve that dont! ccp could take out pvp and put in consenual pvp then maby more players would risk doing things! first of that would get rid of the gank squads right away! 2nd off why dont u stay in 0.0 space and kill everone all u want! u tell us too stay in empire space i say ccp should have no combat in anything but 0.0 space! or corp wars! then maby if pvp was consensual maby u pvp would get the 1 on 1 fight u want! and not be able to pick on the new playwers or some one in and industral ship! so why dont you STFU! eve isnt WoW its a surprise pvp game that what makes it allot better pvp wise than other games. I personally would be bored stiff i they brang in consentual combat and the only people that would wnat it is caresbears who dont want to get shot boohoo. so as you say STFU. ------------------------------------------------ need a sig tbfh
Avaleric	Posted - 2005.12.29 22:57:00 - [71] ...in my 4 months in-game I have yet to see a PvP'er attack anything that has even a REMOTE chance of putting up a fight. People are tired of being attacked by vast fleets of pirates. If you want to have more PvP battles, I suggest you start praying PvPers will begin to pick targets that are more of a challenge... Originally by: Ronald Speirs Originally by: Lord Frost Yes, PVP sucks... but why does it suck? ... because of the PVPers! duh! You guys brought this on yourselves. Blob after blob after blob. The only tactic you all had was to out man the other guy. Now, you all resort to massive gank squads looking for 1 or 2 lone targets and a sure win. What did you think would happen? Those sitting around, not wanting to pvp would just accept gank losses? PvP has turned into PvNIP (Player vs Non-Interested Player). Now I'm sure there are occasions, perhaps like yours, where the targets are legit... however, if you cant beat them at their tactics, then obviously you need to change yours. A slab of WCS all in low slots is a viable option to anyone that knows ganks will come from chestpoppers outnumbering them. I dont know what you expect... perhaps you are just frustrated you can't beat the people you once used to own. I'm guessing next time you'll bring more mates with more scramblers to increase your I WIN motive. You asked what has happened to PvP... look in the mirror, you'll find the answer. Or... just dont whine about every little instance you encounter. See this is what i'm talking about. Pvp to you, sir is getting ganked in lowsec. Well....if thats what you want avoid all you have to do is take the jita express to your agent or roid field or wherever in 1.0. Pvp to me is a rush 1v1 nothing can beat it. Till you know what you are talking about is suggest you stfu. Thanks, :D - Ignorance is bliss...
Rudolf Miller	Posted - 2005.12.29 23:13:00 - [72] Edited by: Rudolf Miller on 29/12/2005 23:13:42 How about changing some of the PvP rules to take into account the security level and the class of the ship. This would apply only to combat ships. Remove penalties for fighting. 1.0 -> 8.0: As is 7.0 -> 4.0: Frigate free-for-all 3.0 -> 1.0: Crusier, Destroy, T2 Frigate and below free-for-all 0.0: Free-for-all, indis and miners at risk also This is rough, just something to think of
Kashre	Posted - 2005.12.29 23:30:00 - [73] Stab whoring gank monkeys are a fact of the game. Like flies on a dairy farm, its an annoyance you'll just have to live with. I hate them as much as anyone else, but the truth is aside from the occasion idiot indy pilot who isnt paying attention, they do little damage. Its easy to chase them off, and its easy to avoid them. That said, "I dont want to lose my HAC/Uber mods/etc" is a pretty weak excuse, imo for flying a stab*****mobile. Don't fly something you're not willing to lose. Those of us who want a fight rather than a cheap and easy kill will thank you for it, and we'll all have a better time. Still... I dont want to see too much in the way of drastic changes that might mess up the balance of the game. Chance-based warp scrambling is a terrible idea imo. You'd never be able to do anything cool like kill a heavily tanked ship with a weaker ship cause eventually you loose the die-roll and he'd warp out. Personally, I think the best thing is to leave the functionality of stabs as they are, but make it so that every on-line stab over the first one deactivates a high slot. That way you're indies could still run a gun for safety but still stab up.. which is perfectly reasonable imo. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
Zakar Ganesh	Posted - 2005.12.29 23:38:00 - [74] Originally by: dailyhazard eve isnt WoW its a surprise pvp game that what makes it allot better pvp wise than other games. I personally would be bored stiff i they brang in consentual combat and the only people that would wnat it is caresbears who dont want to get shot boohoo. so as you say STFU. Apparently you've never played WoW. WoW PVP servers aren't concentual.
Claude Leon	Posted - 2005.12.30 00:01:00 - [75] Originally by: Galk Originally by: Ronald Speirs no one wants to fight unless the odds are totally overwhelming on their side. And when i say overwhelming i mean 10 vs 1. This suprises you? Look this board is full of people saying that they absolutely love the hard edge eve has to offer. On the ground very few don't mind losing and taking that 'hard edge' on the chin. Problem with this game, there's no way to fight a 10-1 back. I absolutely crease myself when people start going on about 'pilot skill', there's very little skill in a point and click game. Gimme quake 10v1 and there's a way to win.. i done it personaly, eve... No chance, your on a loser, why ganking is so popular... QFT! Pilot skill in a point and click game. Rubbish!
Vince Draken	Posted - 2006.02.08 03:41:00 - [76] lol at ost of the reponces in this thread that is all The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2006.02.08 04:31:00 - [77] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 08/02/2006 04:34:58 I had a really nice combat experience with my alt that reminded me of a close range combat CELES vs. SA, when I was as a newbie in my rupture. ( Ok, we were more than the enemies in this fight, but since the enemies ganked one npc hunter before I won't call it unfair. ) Anyway I flew an autocannon tempest, was primary target and had to tank 3 BS while flying to a raven with my afterburner II. Then I orbited and was already in structure when the raven exploded. I got armor back and went for a typhoon. Then I had to warp out, recover some armor and went back into the fight. No WCS and that was cool, because otherwise my tank would have been gimped. I would give a lot, if I could have such cool fights multiple times a week, but guess getting a fight like this is really luck. If you are primary of 10 BS, game over. But imho a cool close-range fight without jamming etc. beats long-range fighting a lot. Really fun. It motivated me to train for large t2 autocannons, something that I avoided until now because of the skilltime. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Auraurious	Posted - 2006.02.08 04:44:00 - [78] Edited by: Auraurious on 08/02/2006 04:44:25 Originally by: Vince Draken lol at ost of the reponces in this thread that is all Look, A Necromancer! Burn him I say. ____________________ This sig immune to mod haxxage! ^^ it's true, I tried and couldn't haxx0r it -Ductoris Better luck next time! --Jorauk
Namidian	Posted - 2006.02.08 06:31:00 - [79] personally i get near as much enjoyment out of escaping from overwhelming numbers as i do attacking when i stand a chance...
Dukath	Posted - 2006.02.08 06:54:00 - [80] There are 4 main reasons why the 'old style' fleet combat died. 1) empty space safespots 2) instajumps 3) lag 4) diversity of fleets (aka support ships) 1,2,4 and kinda related in the cause. Fleet combat used to take longer because people under heavy fire would warp out, turn around and come back into the battle to continue to fight. so even if one side was slightly ahead the battle would still turn or would at least take a lot longer. However now we have this: - support fleet increase the risk of being scrambled if you don't have good support yourself, thus people either stab up, or go for further range and warp out sooner than before. In the old fleets it was short range battleships who did the scrambling, not uber fast frigates. - empty space safespots: people now warp to a safespot while they used to warp to a random planet or moon when in trouble. The fun thing was that it happened regularly that 2 hostiles warped out to the same planet/moon/gate and small fights could happen there too. Now when a guy is out he is safe. Nothing can happen anymore - lag: lets hope this one will be fixed a least with the new clusters. When you used to warp out it was still a good idea to warp back in. Sure you had a short loading lag but it was doable. Right now if you come back you can expect up to minutes of not seeing anything. By the time you see anything the battle is over. (firepower has increased a lot while tanking hasn't increased in the same amount) So if you warp back it is certain death. Since ships can't warp back anymore even a slight difference between the fleet quickly grows huge and one side gets overhand. Battle over. Finally instajumps: this is most important in the smaller engagements. Right now a lot of fights don't happen because one side simply instajumps out fully stabbed. Using bubbles in all those circumstances is not viable and thus over half of possible battle situations are lost due to them. Finally, a special mention goes to having grown up. The tactics used in those old fleetbattle were not refined, noadays we have covert ops, safespots, instajumps, a lot of people don't take the risk that were taken earlier in the game. This is mostly because the playingfield has been levelled a lot. Before when one corp had a great tactic or setup it took months for it to spread all around, now it can be done in a week or less. Innovative setups or tactics like TWM's dual mwd maller or a battleball are impossible now. Stuff simply has changed. Still, to get some of the old feeling back the instas and empty space bookmarks should go (make bookmarks attached to an anchorable object only so it ca still be used by placing cans and normal used of bookmarks still have their use; mining, remembering where a certain agent is in space, location of your POS, etc), The lag needs to be fixed. (please make sure that the load balancing thingy never puts a high load empire system together with 0.0 systems, since they can quickly go from 0 to 200 people while the empire system always has a high load) Fix the dual bonus modules and make falloff dualsided (no more 250km instalocking snipers, either you go short range with fast lock or long range with very slow lock, and with dual falloff distance to your target will be more important, so even battleship movement will count while focused fire will be less effective since not everyong will be at optimal range)
Druid R	Posted - 2006.02.08 07:48:00 - [81] ppl do still fight. cruising round synd tonight we took on 3 bs and a cruiser with 2 cruisers and 2 intys 2 frigs. we killed a scorp and the rupture, 2 ravens escaped. was real fun (for us) as we figured could be a real close fight. Dru.
Kinsy	Posted - 2006.02.08 08:34:00 - [82] CELES live for fights like that stain one. We still get them justabout, too, even if we have to move shop every 2-3 weeks. One solo fight tends to make up for 2-3 weeks of dry spells, and you still want to talk about it 2-3 weeks later! I take little pleasure in outnumbering/jamming opponents, but as you'll quickly realise, theres no counter other than doing it yourself.
Earthan	Posted - 2006.02.08 08:58:00 - [83] Originally by: Macro Slasher Originally by: Iseeu Don't bash the WCS, because once they are nerfed your not going to see ANY fights when you outnumber your enemies. Yeah I heard some talk that they have been considering some sort of honor point system. If you attack too small enemies with too big fleet, you get no "points". If you attack a similar fleet with some tolerance you get some. Assault something larger with smaller and you get a lot. Then later those points are good for something. Like getting the ships replenished or some rare items or something. There's some thought into it, trying to re-think the pvp.. I hope it sees the daylight some day. Hmm very unrealisitc but nice omho. ******** "...And thereÆs even some evil mothers Well theyÆre gonna tell you that everything is just dirt ...And that, yÆknow, children are the only ones who blush!And that,life is just to die..."
spookz	Posted - 2006.02.08 09:23:00 - [84] Very well written post and I'm inclined to agree with pretty much everything you said. When those good pvp opportunities come up though you won't forget them in a hurry Join FCON
VossKarr	Posted - 2006.02.08 11:06:00 - [85] Originally by: Tar Ecthelion Remove killmails Make warp scrambling chance based Make WCS reduce the chance of being scrambled Either introduce more tech2 BPO's, or reduce production time on existing ones Make a viable anti-pirate career by somehow implementing less security hits for fighting in low sec against declared pirate corps... and give pirates a boost by letting their corp declare themselves as a pirate corp and getting some sort of benefit for doing so. w0rd

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