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Thora Tokila Technus Magma Six Times Nine 0	Posted - 2011.10.28 12:44:00 - [1] - Quote I see hardly any plex anymore in the market......ccp is having some money issues and fires people. Am I seeing ghosts? If I was CCP and needed some extra cash I would ingame buy plexes (ISK is just binary) and destroy them. I hope its just ghosts i see....but some where i am afraid.
Shirah Yuri Allied Assault Universal Constant Alliance 7	Posted - 2011.10.28 12:53:00 - [2] - Quote I do not think that CCP is messing with plexes. (Since PLEXes even show up in their bilance as obligations, so they would be working even illegally there) However, with CCP being in rough waters, I could imagine more players reluctant to pay for gametime they're not sure CCP will live through, would go and purchase PLEX instead, thus draining the PLEX market some more than they usually would. On the other hand, with unknown lands ahead, maybe some other players do not feel like they want to invest RL money into virtual assets, and hence create less PLEX. Both sides of this game increasing the demand on plex, hence driving up the price. Sounds like perfectly normal market behaviour to me. The price for PLEX will rise until it's sufficiently interesting for people to sell PLEX. And until it's maybe sufficiently expensive that not everybody wants to buy one any more.
Luxi Daphiti Biotech Transtellar INC 8	Posted - 2011.10.28 12:57:00 - [3] - Quote Never thought of that. Suppose it would make sense though for them to buy up PLEX and destroy them - they get cash without having to provide a service. Seems a bit unethical though. Although maybe someone's decided to hoard them in anticipation of a price spike? More likely then some shady CCP plan... Who knows. EDIT: Shirah Yuri wrote: I do not think that CCP is messing with plexes. (Since PLEXes even show up in their bilance as obligations, so they would be working even illegally there) I thought there might be some legal obligation for such. However, if they were removing PLEX by buying them up (perhaps giving a GM the ISK to do so) and then trashing them then I can't imagine it would be very easy to catch. They could just remove or erase the logs (of ISK transfers/market orders) and chalk it up to a player making use of a legitimate game mechanic in a rather bizzare fashion... (Although I still doubt it is what's going on)
Florestan Bronstein The Waterworks 137	Posted - 2011.10.28 13:06:00 - [4] - Quote Shirah Yuri wrote: (Since PLEXes even show up in their bilance as obligations, so they would be working even illegally there) [citation needed] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541148
Shirah Yuri Allied Assault Universal Constant Alliance 7	Posted - 2011.10.28 13:06:00 - [5] - Quote Luxi Daphiti wrote: I thought there might be some legal obligation for such. However, if they were removing PLEX by buying them up (perhaps giving a GM the ISK to do so) and then trashing them then I can't imagine it would be very easy to catch. They could just remove or erase the logs (of ISK transfers/market orders) and chalk it up to a player making use of a legitimate game mechanic in a rather bizzare fashion... (Although I still doubt it is what's going on) I would guess the game works the other way around: everytime a plex is created, this is reported to some accounting service. And everytime some plex is removed from game (either destroyed or turned into AUR or game time), that same accounting service would receive logging message of that, too. Just removing logs will do nothing there. They'd still have obligations in their bookkeeping.
Florestan Bronstein The Waterworks 137	Posted - 2011.10.28 13:28:00 - [6] - Quote Shirah Yuri wrote: Quote: Not surprising. What that confirms is that PLEX are taken to revenue immediately. In 3.71 it says, "Fees are non-refundable," and in 3.72 it says, "Revenue from the sale of goods is recognized when ... the Company has transferred to the buyer the significant risks and rewards of ownership of the goods." Those conditions are satisfied when a player buys a PLEX. How the player applies/uses (or loses) said PLEX is immaterial to CCP. Hm... so in theory that would mean that CCP can in fact buy up plex and as such could "earn" a good few bucks over each....!? Now... that's really somewhat scary. not really different from you getting blown up with a few dozen PLEX in your cargohold
Igniskhin Veyr The Veyr Collective 9	Posted - 2011.10.29 04:24:00 - [7] - Quote well, I've got my Tinfoil hat on so i can comment safely... all though unethical, there's nothing I've seen preventing them from doing it... but it would be a very fine line for them to walk, if they destroy too many subs would laps and all though the current affect would be none existent (the plex's are being created from real dollars and pounds), if accounts unsubbed then there would be a reduced demand for them in the next month, which any MD troll/lurker could tell you, is bad joojoo. though how much would be purely speculation on anyone's part.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force 362	Posted - 2011.10.29 04:43:00 - [8] - Quote Thora Tokila wrote: I see hardly any plex anymore in the market. The Forge traded volume looks hardly lower than the usual fluctuations (average a bit over 2k/day, last week traded volumes actually above average), the number of orders is fairly high too... ...so what exactly are you talking about ? Maybe in the less populated regions you might see less PLEX, but in the "core areas", business seems to have actually picked up. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection
Thebriwan LUX Uls Xystus 12	Posted - 2011.10.29 11:29:00 - [9] - Quote Starting a rumor with no evidence is baaaaaaad, hmmmkay? (This is true also if the rumor is posted as a qustion...)
Gatan Hahran Brukterer DUCT TAPE UNION 2	Posted - 2011.10.29 13:54:00 - [10] - Quote Do you people think that real life economy could have an affect on PLEX price? US and EU economy is struggling and more players could favor paying with ISK for gametime instead of dollars or euro, resulting in a higher PLEX price.
Luxi Daphiti Biotech Transtellar INC 15	Posted - 2011.10.29 14:14:00 - [11] - Quote Gatan Hahran wrote: Do you people think that real life economy could have an affect on PLEX price? US and EU economy is struggling and more players could favor paying with ISK for gametime instead of dollars or euro, resulting in a higher PLEX price. Could do I suppose. I pay for mine in EUR but use GBP natively - so if things start going wrong with the Euro, or if there was some sort of economic catastrophe which leads to a poor exchange rate then I might favour ISK over RL Monies. But would have to be a vast difference though, a few pennies in either direction isn't a great deal of a problem in the grand scheme of things if you can afford to buy PLEX anyway. Although if any RL problem would cause PLEX to rise it would be mix unemployment and inflation. Because if you don't physically have the money to pay for subscription then your defiantly are going to favour ISK over hard cash. So I would assume as things get more and more expensive, and living costs and such are driven up, then the price of PLEX may rise - but it would have to happen worldwide.
David Campbell Essence Industrial and Trade B A C K B 0 N E 0	Posted - 2011.11.04 10:52:00 - [12] - Quote Quote: Suppose it would make sense though for them to buy up PLEX and destroy them - they get cash without having to provide a service. Seems a bit unethical though I don't really see why it would be unethical for CCP to buy plex and destroy them. Correct me if I'm wrong but plex is not game time but an in-game item. As such they have no service obligation towards anyone. The only obligation they have when you buy a plex is to deliver it to your ingame account. Then you can do whatever the game allows you to do with it : sell it, convert it into AUR, use it for game time, drop it in a can and shoot it... If you were to buy a plex, sell it for ISK and CCP were the one to buy it, then you would have what you wanted : the amount of ISK you decided to sell it for. They could destroy the plex without doing wrong by anyone. All they would to is influence the balance of supply and demand in game which they already do with 13 plexes buy-pack. From a RL point of view however, they would have deliver.
Lexmana Imperial Stout 41	Posted - 2011.11.04 11:05:00 - [13] - Quote David Campbell wrote: If you were to buy a plex, sell it for ISK and CCP were the one to buy it, then you would have what you wanted : the amount of ISK you decided to sell it for. They could destroy the plex without doing wrong by anyone. All they would to is influence the balance of supply and demand in game which they already do with 13 plexes buy-pack. From a RL point of view however, they would have deliver. Except they would create the ISK out of nowhere which will disrupt the sandbox and cause inflation.
Lexmana Imperial Stout 41	Posted - 2011.11.04 11:05:00 - [14] - Quote David Campbell wrote: If you were to buy a plex, sell it for ISK and CCP were the one to buy it, then you would have what you wanted : the amount of ISK you decided to sell it for. They could destroy the plex without doing wrong by anyone. All they would to is influence the balance of supply and demand in game which they already do with 13 plexes buy-pack. From a RL point of view however, they would have deliver. Except they would create the ISK out of nowhere which will disrupt the sandbox and cause inflation.
Atima House of Marbles 14	Posted - 2011.11.04 12:41:00 - [15] - Quote Lexmana wrote: David Campbell wrote: If you were to buy a plex, sell it for ISK and CCP were the one to buy it, then you would have what you wanted : the amount of ISK you decided to sell it for. They could destroy the plex without doing wrong by anyone. All they would to is influence the balance of supply and demand in game which they already do with 13 plexes buy-pack. From a RL point of view however, they would have deliver. Except they would create the ISK out of nowhere which will disrupt the sandbox and cause inflation. unethical yes illegal no
flakeys The Great cornholio's Paper Tiger Coalition 35	Posted - 2011.11.04 13:16:00 - [16] - Quote Sorry , i reqd the OP threadname as : 'worried about sex' .. so nothing to contribute seeing my reading mistake ..
stoicfaux 349	Posted - 2011.11.04 13:55:00 - [17] - Quote Akita T wrote: Thora Tokila wrote: I see hardly any plex anymore in the market. The Forge traded volume looks hardly lower than the usual fluctuations (average a bit over 2k/day, last week traded volumes actually above average), the number of orders is fairly high too... ...so what exactly are you talking about ? Maybe in the less populated regions you might see less PLEX, but in the "core areas", business seems to have actually picked up. Or maybe, the average volume has stayed average because the price increase has caused customers to stop buying PLEX? Meaning, CCP's Pet Economist or Mathematician increases CCP buy transactions to match the drop in normal customer buy transactions, thus preserving the average volume. Ex: Customer: Oh noes! PLEX is too high. Sorry Alt #1234, you're going on furlough! Evil CCP PLEX Manipulator: That's one less legitimate PLEX being bought, now I can add a CCP PLEX buy order. Muahahahaha! PLEX Market Analyst: Hrmm, no change in volume. Obvious market forces are obvious. Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
Pawnee hirr Morsus Mihi 1	Posted - 2011.11.04 19:41:00 - [18] - Quote There are enough people, who admit they speculate with PLEX,, buy them up, limit supply for a while and resell for a higher price. These are the people, who bite the hand that feeds them. If people buy less PLEX, because they do not want to pay the new prices and quit the game, this will be less consumers in the Eve economy. It is the same in RL, i.e. speculation in spare food and cause famine in a third world country. This way of greed will one day be the end of mankind - and honestly we deserve it, if we do not stop it. Same with Eve, it will be no big loss, if the game sucks and loses its attraction, because of some wrong decisions and greedy people, who could not get enough.
Diomedes Calypso Aetolian Armada 27	Posted - 2011.11.05 00:44:00 - [19] - Quote Akita T wrote: Thora Tokila wrote: I see hardly any plex anymore in the market. The Forge traded volume looks hardly lower than the usual fluctuations (average a bit over 2k/day, last week traded volumes actually above average), the number of orders is fairly high too... ...so what exactly are you talking about ? Maybe in the less populated regions you might see less PLEX, but in the "core areas", business seems to have actually picked up. Volume tells the story. it also tells the story about the health of subscriiptions if you looked at numbers of units sold of a wide basket of different items. A few will fluctuate because of changes in utility or new fads and manipulations and news items can cause spikes here or there.....but if there really were an across the board decrease in players you'd be able to discern a sweeping pattern of lower volume. Log in numbers have dropped materially,, yet traded volume in most items is relatively stable. I think that is pretty much proof that fewer people are leaving second clients logged in or staying logged into EVE in general while docked in station and out at the supermarket.
fuer0n Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.11.05 11:08:00 - [20] - Quote Pawnee wrote: There are enough people, who admit they speculate with PLEX,, buy them up, limit supply for a while and resell for a higher price. These are the people, who bite the hand that feeds them. If people buy less PLEX, because they do not want to pay the new prices and quit the game, this will be less consumers in the Eve economy. It is the same in RL, i.e. speculation in spare food and cause famine in a third world country. This way of greed will one day be the end of mankind - and honestly we deserve it, if we do not stop it. Same with Eve, it will be no big loss, if the game sucks and loses its attraction, because of some wrong decisions and greedy people, who could not get enough. they could stop that in an instant if they wanted to by putting sell by dates (expiry date) on the plex. this would actually limit real money traders too as i suspect is happening and your totally right, some people will quit the game because of high plex prices and that can't be good for ccp in the long run.
Sturmwolke 39	Posted - 2011.11.05 11:32:00 - [21] - Quote fuer0n wrote: they could stop that in an instant if they wanted to by putting sell by dates (expiry date) on the plex. That creates more problems than it solves. The simplest way to mitigate speculative attempts is to simply limit the number of PLEX each character can hold (e.g. maximum 6months worth). It raises the cost of speculation because then, you'd need an army of alts to even begin anything major. Got friends? No problem. Can you fully trust them? Ok, you've got friends you can trust your mom/wife/kids with? You'd still face a hard limit. Store them in floating containers? Hmm .. maybe allowing PLEXes to be transported was a bad idea after all. Did I miss anything else? Those things said though, I'd doubt CCP would take the trouble to stamp out the speculation until things persistently gets out of hand. It'll usually take a major hoo-hah for them to act decisively.
fuer0n Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.11.05 12:25:00 - [22] - Quote they wont limit plex numbers per account as they are selling them in $199 batches and this will just hurt them. maybe no expiry date on the original purchase of plex but once it's passed on from the char who createdt it .... genuine people who buy the plex for game time are ok everyone else is taking a gamble? the poroblem is RMTers can manipulate at the moment and plex/gamecards is something that was brought in to combat this scurge. only ccp know whats really happening tbh and if they want to solve/needs solving they will. what are the problems you see with the expiry dates?
Stealing Honest Stealing Honest Speculation Group LLC 7	Posted - 2011.11.05 15:17:00 - [23] - Quote The proper value has not been attained yet to release reserves. Though i would prefer 600m, it seems 480m is where the advisory counsel believes is the proper trigger. We shall see. SH
Sturmwolke 39	Posted - 2011.11.05 16:42:00 - [24] - Quote fuer0n wrote: they wont limit plex numbers per account as they are selling them in $199 batches. Solving that is trivial. fuer0n wrote: what are the problems you see with the expiry dates? Host of issues (not limited to) : - Needing each token uniquely registered into the database, increasing complexity unecessarily. - Market issues. It's simply not designed for it. - Act of god issues like downtimes, etc. People will scream at CCP because their PLEXes timed out. Wasted energy & resources to spent to correct the issues. - Rules out legitimate reasons for keeping PLEXs on personal reserve for an indefinite period. e.g if they plan to take a break. - Limited impact to speculation. They'll just cycle through the volume faster - more volatility. Cost of speculation is still the same. To kill manipulation attempts, you need to prevent excessive hoarding. Putting an expiry date on PLEX may seem like a good idea, but it's not. It's a complicated solution to a simple problem.
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist 12	Posted - 2011.11.05 17:06:00 - [25] - Quote Why are people in this thread attempting to come up with all sorts of ways for limiting how to speculate on PLEX when the answer is simple: do nothing. That's the obvious solution for a non-problem.
Companion Qube Positive Cashflow through Positive Thinking SRS. 56	Posted - 2011.11.05 20:44:00 - [26] - Quote Tasko Pal wrote: Why are people in this thread attempting to come up with all sorts of ways for limiting how to speculate on PLEX when the answer is simple: do nothing. That's the obvious solution for a non-problem. At least we've managed to collect most of the shitpoasting in md into one thread.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force 368	Posted - 2011.11.05 23:49:00 - [27] - Quote Companion Qube wrote: At least we've managed to collect most of the shitpoasting in md into one thread. You're being waaay too magnanimous in that assessment... http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection
Sturmwolke 39	Posted - 2011.11.06 00:08:00 - [28] - Quote Tasko Pal wrote: Why are people in this thread attempting to come up with all sorts of ways for limiting how to speculate on PLEX when the answer is simple: do nothing. Because it''s fun?
Hans Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous 449	Posted - 2011.11.06 00:52:00 - [29] - Quote Because I don't feel like typing it all over again, I'll just say that you can click here to read why the idea that CCP is meddling with isk prices is complete bullshit.
Hans Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous 449	Posted - 2011.11.06 00:59:00 - [30] - Quote fuer0n wrote: they wont limit plex numbers per account as they are selling them in $199 batches and this will just hurt them. maybe no expiry date on the original purchase of plex but once it's passed on from the char who createdt it .... genuine people who buy the plex for game time are ok everyone else is taking a gamble? the poroblem is RMTers can manipulate at the moment and plex/gamecards is something that was brought in to combat this scurge. only ccp know whats really happening tbh and if they want to solve/needs solving they will. what are the problems you see with the expiry dates? I'm certain that expiration dates would be illegal. You can't give someone a service for their cash, than give them a limit to use that service or it disappears. Many laws have changed surrounding gift cards, and promotional offers like Groupon, to prevent this kind of customer abuse. Simply put, CCP could not legally make you pay your $19.99 cash for a PLEX than destroy it without refunding your money in the process. The fact that you waited a while to use it does not matter, the law is the law.

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