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TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
2643
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 10:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
The tears from people who get bumped are delicious.
The tears from the exact same people after they were instantly killed upon undocking from a market after implementing their own poorly thought out ideas would be equally delicious though.
It's win win for my tear bucket |
Megan Lynn Tsero
Push Industries Push Interstellar Network
0
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Posted - 2014.01.13 00:05:00 -
[32] - Quote
After having read through this post and all the links a situation with bumping does need to be evaluated by CCP.
ACTUAL EVENT: You load your Charon with 923,000 M3 of material to transport to Hek. Along the way You exit a gate and are singled out by a bumper. For the next 45 minutes (while you are trying to escape) the bumper continues to hold you from going to warp. Since a Charon can not be fit, and has such a great top speed it is easy to see where this is going. The bumper receives no damage to his ship and is not flagged for this activity. When the gank crew arrives you die. You can not get away, go to another location etc. You would like to do that very thing. So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load.
Bumping had been in the game for a long time however it is now being used instead of a trigger. This is also very wide spread and spreading wider. I can see a day when no one will use capital freighters to move material. You have an economist on staff, ask him the effect on the EVE economy when goods are no longer transported. Once freighters are extinct the industrials will be next and they don't need as many in the gank squad to kill it.
So the high points are: Bumping to keep a slow, defenseless ship in high sec from warping. No concord attention. Miners and freighters classed together (totally different activities)
Game mechanics and/or recognizing the aggression exhibited need a serious look. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
1022
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 01:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
Omg this thread again... please CCP do it! For 48 hours only enable suspect flag for bumping. So maybe they'll get the point. |
Endovior
Osmosis Inc Li3 Federation
146
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 16:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
Megan Lynn Tsero wrote:ACTUAL EVENT: You load your Charon with 923,000 M3 of material to transport to Hek. Along the way You exit a gate and are singled out by a bumper. For the next 45 minutes (while you are trying to escape) the bumper continues to hold you from going to warp. Since a Charon can not be fit, and has such a great top speed it is easy to see where this is going. The bumper receives no damage to his ship and is not flagged for this activity. When the gank crew arrives you die. You can not get away, go to another location etc. You would like to do that very thing. So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load.
45 minutes. That's a long time. If this is such a widespread problem, you'd think that freighter pilots would start hiring escorts to protect them. Or, alternately, that they'd have guys on-call in their corp/alliance to come bail them out when they get caught. Heck, if you're 'actively trying to escape' during that time, you'd probably have time to hire in-game mercenaries to come save you. But any of that would require you to interact with other players, so I can see where it holds a difficulty for you.
Given that, as a freighter pilot, you probably could use someone to web you anyways, it's really not much of a stretch to have that same guy fit for suicide ganking, so that in an emergency, he can trade himself for a bumper to let you escape a trap. |
Siigari Kitawa
Push Industries Push Interstellar Network
354
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 15:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
Endovior wrote:Megan Lynn Tsero wrote:ACTUAL EVENT: You load your Charon with 923,000 M3 of material to transport to Hek. Along the way You exit a gate and are singled out by a bumper. For the next 45 minutes (while you are trying to escape) the bumper continues to hold you from going to warp. Since a Charon can not be fit, and has such a great top speed it is easy to see where this is going. The bumper receives no damage to his ship and is not flagged for this activity. When the gank crew arrives you die. You can not get away, go to another location etc. You would like to do that very thing. So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load. 45 minutes. That's a long time. If this is such a widespread problem, you'd think that freighter pilots would start hiring escorts to protect them. Or, alternately, that they'd have guys on-call in their corp/alliance to come bail them out when they get caught. Heck, if you're 'actively trying to escape' during that time, you'd probably have time to hire in-game mercenaries to come save you. But any of that would require you to interact with other players, so I can see where it holds a difficulty for you. Given that, as a freighter pilot, you probably could use someone to web you anyways, it's really not much of a stretch to have that same guy fit for suicide ganking, so that in an emergency, he can trade himself for a bumper to let you escape a trap. Sure, because it's completely possible to 'bail someone out' when you have 20+ ships throwing a one-shot alpha at a freighter.
We'll ignore your stupid post for today. Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2094
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 21:38:00 -
[36] - Quote
Quote:So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load.
I found your problem.
If you were dumb enough to carry that much in a freighter, you deserve what you got. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Endovior
Osmosis Inc Li3 Federation
146
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 23:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
Siigari Kitawa wrote:Endovior wrote:Megan Lynn Tsero wrote:ACTUAL EVENT: You load your Charon with 923,000 M3 of material to transport to Hek. Along the way You exit a gate and are singled out by a bumper. For the next 45 minutes (while you are trying to escape) the bumper continues to hold you from going to warp. Since a Charon can not be fit, and has such a great top speed it is easy to see where this is going. The bumper receives no damage to his ship and is not flagged for this activity. When the gank crew arrives you die. You can not get away, go to another location etc. You would like to do that very thing. So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load. 45 minutes. That's a long time. If this is such a widespread problem, you'd think that freighter pilots would start hiring escorts to protect them. Or, alternately, that they'd have guys on-call in their corp/alliance to come bail them out when they get caught. Heck, if you're 'actively trying to escape' during that time, you'd probably have time to hire in-game mercenaries to come save you. But any of that would require you to interact with other players, so I can see where it holds a difficulty for you. Given that, as a freighter pilot, you probably could use someone to web you anyways, it's really not much of a stretch to have that same guy fit for suicide ganking, so that in an emergency, he can trade himself for a bumper to let you escape a trap. Sure, because it's completely possible to 'bail someone out' when you have 20+ ships throwing a one-shot alpha at a freighter. We'll ignore your stupid post for today.
Firstly, notice that my point was specifically in regards to the implausible situation of a bumper holding a freighter in place for 45 minutes. If you can't figure out some way to deal with a little bumpy frigate in that amount of time, you deserve what's coming to you. Obviously, if you're alone in space unable to flee and the gank squad is already on top of your defenceless freighter, your losing mistake was made a long time ago... but the story is different if you're caught by an opportunistic bumper who doesn't have a gank squad present, and is trying to call one in to deal with you. Much like with a tackled capital, that IS a window of time in which it IS possible to respond.
Secondly... one-shot alpha? Freighter? Usually not, no. Sure, there IS a number/composition of ships which can pull off the feat, but that tends to be a losing proposition (remember, gankers rely on that window of time between initial aggression and CONCORD's arrival to kill harder targets). At the very least, you could pre-summon CONCORD (read, have your buddy shoot their bumper, hopefully killing him, before dying to CONCORD in turn), which changes the ganking equation pretty unfavorably, since with CONCORD on the field, gankers will more or less instantly die after aggressing. Sure, it's possible that they brought enough DPS to win anyways, but the numbers are worse than even a gank in 1.0; not perfect protection, but if you've been at all sensible with your cargo value, you've just guaranteed a loss to the gankers. |
Kyon Rheyne
Frisky cancers Roamer Coalition
28
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Posted - 2014.04.10 20:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Endovior wrote:
45 minutes. That's a long time.
Yes. And its actually THE case where abnormalilty of bumping ship owner's behaviour SHOULD be obvious to law enforcing authorities. In fact, its SHOULD be much less span of a time. Like, repeating bumping for 5 to 10 minutes. And if its too quick for you, that amateurish bunch of gangsters you are running obviously needs a proper training program prescribed to them. At least put some effort and soul in the "job" you enlisted for, okaaaay? But prosecution by deadly force is too much, indeed Just webifiying to zero all those who were bumping and will be trying to bump after for some period of time will be enough. All timers can be tied to the actual sec level of the solar system. |
Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
1
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 21:09:00 -
[39] - Quote
Endovior wrote:Megan Lynn Tsero wrote:ACTUAL EVENT: You load your Charon with 923,000 M3 of material to transport to Hek. Along the way You exit a gate and are singled out by a bumper. For the next 45 minutes (while you are trying to escape) the bumper continues to hold you from going to warp. Since a Charon can not be fit, and has such a great top speed it is easy to see where this is going. The bumper receives no damage to his ship and is not flagged for this activity. When the gank crew arrives you die. You can not get away, go to another location etc. You would like to do that very thing. So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load. 45 minutes. That's a long time. If this is such a widespread problem, you'd think that freighter pilots would start hiring escorts to protect them. Or, alternately, that they'd have guys on-call in their corp/alliance to come bail them out when they get caught. Heck, if you're 'actively trying to escape' during that time, you'd probably have time to hire in-game mercenaries to come save you. But any of that would require you to interact with other players, so I can see where it holds a difficulty for you. Given that, as a freighter pilot, you probably could use someone to web you anyways, it's really not much of a stretch to have that same guy fit for suicide ganking, so that in an emergency, he can trade himself for a bumper to let you escape a trap.
lol what good is calling corp mates to help you in highsec against a bumper who is not criminally flagged and probably in a ship that would take more then the freighters worth to gank effectively? Not to mention the loss of the corps ships for the suicide?
Also a freighter is so big and has so much mass the bumper could miss 5 times and still have another go at bumping you out of alignment before you warped. On average it takes a freighter 3-5 minuets to align and warp. The bumper is not going to be distracted by your corp mates that long, if at all. Unless one of them wants to sacrifice a ship to save you by either scramming and webbing the bumper and even then concord is going to kill him and the bumper is going to continue bumping you before you can warp.
Really man. You should think more before commenting.
Just one of the many reason I do not carry more then 500 mil of stuff in my freighter and even then I only carry minerals, and nothing even remotely useful or worth ganking for. And why my freighter is always insured. Does it take me more time to do stuff? sure. Do gankers leave me alone? Yep because I am not worth the time or effort. |
Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
1
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 21:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kyon Rheyne wrote:Endovior wrote:
45 minutes. That's a long time.
Yes. And it's actually THE case where abnormalilty of bumping ship owner's behaviour SHOULD be obvious to law enforcing authorities. In fact, it SHOULD be much less span of a time. Like, repeating bumping for 5 to 10 minutes. And if its too quick for you, that amateurish bunch of gangsters you are running obviously needs a proper training program prescribed to them. At least put some effort and soul in the "job" you enlisted for, okaaaay? But prosecution by deadly force is too much, indeed Just webifiying to zero all those who were bumping and will be trying to bump after for some period of time will be enough. All timers can be tied to the actual sec level of the solar system.
Just give them a suspect flag, trust me they'll be dead in seconds.
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Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
115
|
Posted - 2014.04.26 18:35:00 -
[41] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Thoot him, offither! Thoot him at onthe! HE PUTHED ME!
Sylvester & Tweetypie ? |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
115
|
Posted - 2014.04.26 18:46:00 -
[42] - Quote
Industrials and Freighters invariably get bumped at stargates and then suicide ganked because they have loaded their holds with an inappropriate amount of valuable cargo. Unless you are unlucky it will be victims fault that they have been targeted. The pilots that get involved in these activities are largely doing it to generate ISK and will not gank you if you have not knowlingly turned yourself into a loot pi+¦ata.
Regarding bumping of miners it is a legitimate activity to use in roleplay scenarios, to extort or ransom to obtain ISK, or to protect business interests. Introducing suspect status as a punishment for bumping mining ships is not required as miners are protected enough. If suspect status was introduced I reckon there is a more than fair chance it would not bring the result you think would happen. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
1010
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 13:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:How exactly will Eve determine which ship bumped the other ?
Because people will attempt to exploit whatever algorithm CCP uses.
What happens when someone tries to play docking games at Jita 4-4 ? Won't they keep hitting ships every time they undock ?
To make it fair both ships hould be concorded. Excuse me i need to fit some rookie ships to bump freighters in readiness. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
29
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Posted - 2014.05.31 12:57:00 -
[44] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:How exactly will Eve determine which ship bumped the other ?
How about that: repeatitive continous (like for a minute or more) bumping of bulky, significantly less agile ship by much more faster (including speed mods' effects) and agile one will lead to flagging the faster/more agile ship as suspect?
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Emiko Rowna
Aliastra Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 05:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
I had posed the following in a thread named GÇ£Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploitGÇ¥
What say you?
I will state right here and now that I believe the bumping of a freighter with the intent of holding it in place while your fiends arrive to perform the gank is an exploit. Here are the reasons why.
1. The only reason you bump is to avoid the wrath of CONCORD.
2. There are other ways to hold a ship in place, all of which come at a cost in training time and equipment. If bumping is allowed to replace the need for this training and equipment the bumper has the advantage of now being able to forgo the needed equipment and fill that slot with something else. This in effect will unbalance the ship by giving it the ability of the modules skipped over and the ones used in their stead.
3. Every intended mechanic has a counter and this does not. DonGÇÖt even try to say bring friends, as that is not a counter to any mechanic other than being out numbered. When was the last time you told someone asking how to fight a faster ship to bring friends?
4. There is no skill to train for bumping nor to counter bumping.
In the end it comes down to this, you are bumping to achieve the same results or better with no training time or investment in equipment that is achieved by a player that makes those investments. You are doing this with the solo intent to avoid the wrath of CONCORD that the player who has trained and bought the equipment is subject to. |
Mag's
the united
17347
|
Posted - 2014.06.05 07:42:00 -
[46] - Quote
Emiko Rowna wrote:I will state right here and now that I believe the bumping of a freighter with the intent of holding it in place while your fiends arrive to perform the gank is an exploit. Here are the reasons why.
And here's the reason why it is not.
So it matters not what you believe, we have the facts.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Puppy Eating
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 01:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Emiko Rowna wrote:I will state right here and now that I believe the bumping of a freighter with the intent of holding it in place while your fiends arrive to perform the gank is an exploit. Here are the reasons why.
And here's the reason why it is not.So it matters not what you believe, we have the facts.
An appeal to authority is an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true.
Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.
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Mag's
the united
17662
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Posted - 2014.07.08 09:27:00 -
[48] - Quote
Puppy Eating wrote:Mag's wrote:Emiko Rowna wrote:I will state right here and now that I believe the bumping of a freighter with the intent of holding it in place while your fiends arrive to perform the gank is an exploit. Here are the reasons why.
And here's the reason why it is not.So it matters not what you believe, we have the facts. An appeal to authority is an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true. Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true. You would have a point if it wasn't for the fact that in this case, the authority is the owner of the game and makes the rules. So yes, we have that facts and know the rules. All from CCP. There is no other. Not only that, but they arrived at those rules after requesting input from the playerbase.
At least have an understanding of the situation, before trying to apply any fallacies. No matter how good they sound.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Iain Cariaba
Veritas Theory
122
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Posted - 2014.07.12 06:22:00 -
[49] - Quote
Freighter bumping is not a problem. One corpmate in a rookie ship equipped with a web will launch a freighter into warp and a fraction of the usual required speed. This tactic is used all throughout New Eden by smart freighter pilots to help prevent ganks and to increase their isk/hr by drastically reducing align times.
Miner bumping is not a problem. If you are a miner getting bumped off your mining spot, move to a different belt. If the bumper keeps following you and you are taking measures to avoid him, then report him and the GMs will deal with him as there are rules against this. If you are AFK and getting bumped, well perhaps you shouldn't be AFK and should be paying attention to your mining.
Miner bumping is a valid tool used by people like myself who merely dislike AFK miners, but truly despise bot miners. I have reported several bots over the years because a timed set of command continues even after a miner is bumped off his spot, whereas a simply AFK miner will simply sit in space until the pebcak returns.
As for the '45 minutes' of bumping on a freighter waiting for a gank squad. You do know that safe logout only takes 30s, and as long as you're not actively trying to fly you will simply disappear from space. Bring an alt to the system and watch for the bumper to move on.
But again, you probably don't want to listen, you just want CCP to fix all your problems for you. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem. |
Puppy Eating
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2014.07.16 01:45:00 -
[50] - Quote
So, webbing the freighter as a corp-mate doesn't activate criminal/suspect status? or do you have to be in a particular state (same fleet, in a duel...?)
Seems a bit close to being an exploit to me.
would be interesting to have specific 'navigation assist' modules or something (like Tugboats!) that are designed to have positive effects.
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Mag's
the united
17695
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Posted - 2014.07.16 14:10:00 -
[51] - Quote
Puppy Eating wrote:So, webbing the freighter as a corp-mate doesn't activate criminal/suspect status? or do you have to be in a particular state (same fleet, in a duel...?)
Seems a bit close to being an exploit to me.
would be interesting to have specific 'navigation assist' modules or something (like Tugboats!) that are designed to have positive effects.
You need to be in the same player corp, which means you can aggress your corp mates and not create a flag.
Therefore you can web a freighter and it will jump into warp far quicker and no, it's not an exploit.
You can dual of course, but that takes a little more work and can create issues.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
1424
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 21:18:00 -
[52] - Quote
Puppy Eating wrote:Seems a bit close to being an exploit to me.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
5
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Posted - 2014.08.07 00:08:00 -
[53] - Quote
Kyon Rheyne wrote:Reason: bumping heavily abused mainly to devoid ship targeted for suicide ganking of warping ability through interfering with its allining while its being pushed away from gate to ease the looting process afterwards. Its also being used by well known group of extorters to disrupt mining activities by bumbping miners out of mining laser's range from asteroids. Proposal: after serveral bumping incidents repeatedly happened in a short intervail of time, concord should warp to the perpetrator and issue him a warning to stop his activity immideately, otherwise he will get criminal flag and will be fired upon. Probably will be better if after warning they would use a stasis webifer on him, to make him unable to move for some time, to exclude accidental loss of ship in case some glitch happened and player indeed didn't mean no harm; if after receiving a warning and being stasised for 5-10 second he continues with his attempts, it's enough of a reason to apply deadly force.
Just post your loss mail already. Refer to, link |
RoAnnon
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
427
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:23:00 -
[54] - Quote
Even if CCP wanted to give a suspect flag to someone bumping another, there's no way for the game mechanics to differentiate one bump from another. The whole issue is based on the intent of the bumper and game mechanics can't determine such esoteric facts.
I would like to see the actual bumping mechanic take the mass of each ship more into account, and have the bounces more closely adhere to physics. But that's just me and I can work around it if it never gets changed. So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter. |
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