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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.12.30 21:42:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 30/12/2005 21:27:40
Oh, the irony of t2 producers complaining about high prices. It kills me.
Hellooooo? Anybody there?
They arent complaining about high prices. It's more the effort. For sought after products they simply pass on the price increase plus a chunk for the effort
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2005.12.30 21:51:00 -
[62]
So in effect they are complaining about having to work harder to get what they need (isk grinding for T2, for us). It also seems they are complaining about having to wait for products when they are used to things happening instantaniously (200 day waiting periods for HACs).
Wah.
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Val Amon
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Posted - 2005.12.30 22:19:00 -
[63]
The funny things is now the only people who can afford to fly hacs on a regular basis are grind miners, complex *****s and t2 bpo holders.
Everyone else is up crap creek I know I'm not gonna go kill 100 npc bs to buy a hac that I can lose in about 20 seconds.
Oh and the margins people will make will probably go up since less people are able to produce and would rather just put the bpo into research and not worry about it for now.
So those that can produce items still will gouge your eyes out with prices since 50% of the rest of the bpo holders will just foget about it for a few weeks and throw stuff into research.
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Leowen
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Posted - 2005.12.30 23:12:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 30/12/2005 21:27:40
Oh, the irony of t2 producers complaining about high prices. It kills me.
Hellooooo? Anybody there?
They arent complaining about high prices. It's more the effort. For sought after products they simply pass on the price increase plus a chunk for the effort
Indeed, we're not complaining about high prices and it's not even an effort issue, we're complaining about game supply via agents not being enough to sustain ship production. Which means BPO's will go out of production until this is fixed, which means less people will be building, which means prices will go up, and some ships will disappear entirely. Economics 101.
I wrote the first whine post to CCP on this and it was not driven by worry about my margins. Industrial Giants are commited to T2 supply to the player-base and this RAM shortage will have a serious negative effect on the entire EVE community.
THAT's why it's a game-breaker. Builders margins have got nothing to do with it and CCP know that.
To drive the point home, of our 14 T2 ship BPO's, 9 are now out of production pending a RAM resolution from CCP. For the 5 we are still building prices are up by about 20% already because of supply/demand. For the 9 that we're not (Stealth Bombers, non-Occator Transports, Inties...) I doubt anyone else is building either because it's just not viable with RAM at 1m+ pu. Those ships will virtually disappear from the market in the next week or so. Still think this is just a builders margin issue??
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Cker Pack
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Posted - 2005.12.30 23:56:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Leowen
I doubt anyone else is building either because it's just not viable with RAM at 1m+ pu.
And that would be a price complaint.
Face it. You've been (whats the term?) OMGWTFBBQd by those who know how to get supplies. You lose unless the whining wins you a bailout from CCP. Or just maybe some more of you will figure out how to get starship ram.
If you don't get bailed out, can I have your corporation?
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Leowen
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Posted - 2005.12.31 00:02:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Cker Pack
Originally by: Leowen
I doubt anyone else is building either because it's just not viable with RAM at 1m+ pu.
And that would be a price complaint.
Face it. You've been (whats the term?) OMGWTFBBQd by those who know how to get supplies. You lose unless the whining wins you a bailout from CCP. Or just maybe some more of you will figure out how to get starship ram.
If you don't get bailed out, can I have your corporation?
Errr did you even read my post?
It's not a price complaint, it's a reality check. Try again I'll put it on it's own line to make it clear...
There are not enough RAMs dropping into EVE to sustain T2 ship production
See it now? Supply chains are not the issue, game mechanics are, which is why CCP are fixing it.
And errrr no, you can't afford my corp 
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Xtra Bitter
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Posted - 2005.12.31 00:07:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 30/12/2005 21:27:40
Oh, the irony of t2 producers complaining about high prices. It kills me.
Hello were not maoning about price were complaining about availbility. Its all the buyers of tech 2 that are complaining about price and in particular why prices are rising guess what thats down to availability too.
Please go create another thread if you want to comment on prices this one is about RAM availability and we dont appreciate you hijacking this thread with pitiful side issues. You think its too expensive dont buy or earn enough so it isnt.
Oh and welcome to a free market where the buyer decides the price not the seller.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2005.12.31 00:43:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 31/12/2005 00:45:22
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 31/12/2005 00:43:35
Quote:
Hello
Hello.
Quote:
were not maoning about price were complaining about availbility.
You mean like t2 producers refusal to make BPCs of t2 products so that there isn't a lack of avalability for HACs and similar? Irony.
Quote:
Its all the buyers of tech 2 that are complaining about price and in particular why prices are rising guess what thats down to availability too.
So prices are rising because RAMs are nearly 1 million isk. In theory the ship prices would only go up in compensation to the purchase price of the RAM. Instead they are going up 10-40 million isk due to deliberate inflation. Complaining that we are complaining about high prices when you overcharge due to RAM decreases? Irony.
Quote:
Please go create another thread if you want to comment on prices this one is about RAM availability and we dont appreciate you hijacking this thread with pitiful side issues.
I don't need your appreciation.
Quote:
You think its too expensive dont buy or earn enough so it isnt.
I have plenty of isk to afford T2 items, even HACs. What I don't have is the avalability of the T2 items due to refusal of T2 BPO carriers to make BPCs for increased productivity.
Quote:
Oh and welcome to a free market where the buyer decides the price not the seller.
Welcoming us to a world where T2 prices are decided by whoever holds the T2 items, but complaining about the avalability (and refusal to purchase expensive RAM) decided by those who hold the RAM? Irony.
See my above post for my own T2 item. Tissues are in full production.
Quote:
There are not enough RAMs dropping into EVE to sustain T2 ship production
There are plenty. You simply refuse to purchase their high price value on the market.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.12.31 00:56:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
...
Perhaps you should produce a t2 clue and use it on yourself
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2005.12.31 01:00:00 -
[70]
Quote:
Perhaps you should produce a t2 clue and use it on yourself
That's it? That's the entire defense, some answer/insult with second-grade construction?
I'm out for the night. I have no sympathy for T2 producers, and as far as I can tell.. not many do.
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Tasuric Orka
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Posted - 2005.12.31 01:10:00 -
[71]
I can see the shortage as a game ruining experience for the T2 producers and consumers but..
Maybe its just bad karma for both of them, the greed of overpricing, and the stupidity to purchase those items. 
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Al Thorr
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Posted - 2005.12.31 01:19:00 -
[72]
Personally - all these anti t2 producers whines are getting a tad tiresome.
Do t2 producers "have" to produce ?.... in a nut shell - no.
The RAM shortage imho is a problem and it will get worse - mission running for t2 components wasnt the answer before and will not be the answer now.
The finger in this instance is the devs who took a viable isk sink and messed up
big time.
Just an opinion not a flame
Regards AL Thorr
Why are warp core stabilisers known as toilets ? (ie WC s)
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Tresh Keen
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Posted - 2005.12.31 01:25:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Al Thorr
Personally - all these anti t2 producers whines are getting a tad tiresome.
Do t2 producers "have" to produce ?.... in a nut shell - no.
The RAM shortage imho is a problem and it will get worse - mission running for t2 components wasnt the answer before and will not be the answer now.
If a T2 BPO Owner dont produce - he dont make any money - its that easy. And its realy funny - a lot of T2 prices are realy high and we get the answer - thats market - pay the price or stay with T1. Ok, we cant chance that, but now, the producer have a problem with R.A.M., to expensive, dont want to travel to get em.... tse tse tse - and if i look at the market or escrow - i dont see any shortage.
If CCP increases the amount of R.A.M. - dont forget to give out a bunch of new T2 BPO - just to be fair.....
Cheers, Tresh
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.12.31 01:32:00 -
[74]
Great, and you're willing to say where, quanities and work with T2 producers to deliber for a reasoable profit margin (remembering their size)? We're talking hundreds per week, here.
Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Tophereon
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Posted - 2005.12.31 01:46:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Quote:
Perhaps you should produce a t2 clue and use it on yourself
That's it? That's the entire defense, some answer/insult with second-grade construction?
I'm out for the night. I have no sympathy for T2 producers, and as far as I can tell.. not many do.
Do you use T2 products?
Toph.
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Airdorn
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Posted - 2005.12.31 02:29:00 -
[76]
People producing T2 ships, especially HACs, have been living FAT and LARGE because pilots were willing to pay 130mil isk for a Deimos (for example).. now they're nudging up to 150mil isk, etc.. and that's straining it.
Now that the producers' free ride gravy-train is over, its now time to pay up on the increased production costs, cutting into their sick profits, because I really doubt they'll be able to simply pass the increased costs to the buyers -- that'll just make more people less willing to spend isk on the ultra high priced HACs.
Instead, I think most pilots will start investigating other ships more (Battlecruisers, for example) as the heyday of the uber HAC will be over.
In short, leave the RAM issue as it is.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.12.31 02:36:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/12/2005 02:36:54
Try reading.
*The BUYERS set the price of T2 goods when the supply is limited (CapR 2 is a ENTIRELY different issue!)
*Most T2 BPO's are NOT very profitable, and are still expensive
*This will do nothing but cause ALL T2 prices to rise, and shortages of some of the most-used T2
Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2005.12.31 02:39:00 -
[78]
Somewhere, somehow, sometime...
CCP's Devs + Oveur happily reading and giggling at this topic.
LOL.
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Airdorn
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Posted - 2005.12.31 02:49:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Airdorn on 31/12/2005 02:53:32
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/12/2005 02:37:59
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/12/2005 02:36:54
Try reading.
*The BUYERS set the price of T2 goods when the supply is limited (CapR 2 is a ENTIRELY different issue!)
*Most T2 BPO's are NOT very profitable, and are still expensive
*It is a case not of expensive supply, but NO supply (hint: not everyone works from the same 3 systems)
*This will do nothing but cause ALL T2 prices to rise, and shortages of some of the most-used T2
If nothing is 'fixed', then the producers will want to compensate for the higher production costs by raising the price of the T2 product.. Passing the higher producton costs onto the buyers, in other words.
This will work a little, but I personally believe that after a short increase to already-inflated HAC prices (for example), the interest in the ship will wane in favor of other, cheaper, choices.
So producing a HAC won't be as insanely profitable as it has been.
I heard that the cost in producing a HAC like a Deimos is something like 30mil isk.... versus the typical going rate as demanded by the competing buyers, of around 130mil isk. Yep... if you get a Deimos BPO in the lottery system, it really is like winning the lottery. :)
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Xtci
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Posted - 2005.12.31 03:52:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Leowen
There are not enough RAMs dropping into EVE to sustain T2 ship production
This has got to be the biggest load of crap I have read in a long time. As a mission runner I know for a fact that there is more RAMs dropping now than pre-RmR. Where I used to get RAMs from just my level 4 agents, I now get RAMS from my level 3 agents. Where I used to get RAMS from just my millitary related agents, I now get them from all sorts of agents (even storyline). Don't tell me there is not an increase in the supply. If you are not getting any then you are just having some bad luck, they are out there.
This sounds more like the Tech2 BPO owners whining that they will have to spend some of that ill gotten ISK that they have been hoarding.
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Parline
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Posted - 2005.12.31 04:28:00 -
[81]
Me waves to the thousands I recycle pre-RMR.. Damn you CCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.12.31 04:45:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Quote:
Perhaps you should produce a t2 clue and use it on yourself
That's it? That's the entire defense, some answer/insult with second-grade construction?
I'm out for the night. I have no sympathy for T2 producers, and as far as I can tell.. not many do.
I for one don't need your symplathy, your bitterness over a game would suffice. Cause I am ebil.
_______________________________________________
Every time you whine a little HAC is destroyed. Please think of the little HACs |
Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.12.31 04:47:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
You mean like t2 producers refusal to make BPCs of t2 products so that there isn't a lack of avalability for HACs and similar? Irony.
It takes longer time to make 1 run bpc, of a hac print than it take to actually build one. To even imagine availability will be greater if hac bpo owners did make copies of their prints, now that is hillarious.
You really should get a clue, after reading what you wrote, Im afraid there isn't big enough clues out there that could help you.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.12.31 05:01:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Xtci
Originally by: Leowen
This has got to be the biggest load of crap I have read in a long time. As a mission runner I know for a fact that there is more RAMs dropping now than pre-RmR. Where I used to get RAMs from just my level 4 agents, I now get RAMS from my level 3 agents. Where I used to get RAMS from just my millitary related agents, I now get them from all sorts of agents (even storyline). Don't tell me there is not an increase in the supply. If you are not getting any then you are just having some bad luck, they are out there.
After t2 components stopped drop from agents, so did most ram's and rdb's as well. However, POS's did supply materials to build components, and the ram's used in production could for most part be repaired after use. A t2 producer didnt need large stocks of RAM's because of this (for most parts). Now after RMR patch, these ram's get consumed, which is a major pain for t2 producers.
Now, end price of a product always been carreid over to the end cosumer (the buyer). If the cost of RAM Starship techs rise to a mill a part, that would mean 12 mill added to build a HAC, also added to the price of the end consumer.
The problem isn't the price, its the availability. And yes, I run missions myself I know about increased supply of RAM's. The problem is that this supply isn't large enough for current demand. Without cover the supply, producers are foced to shut down their assembly line, or just run sporadic build runs. The demand for these products will rise, and so will the price. Its the players who set the price, they bid more and more just to be certain they get to what is being built. There is always those who can afford it.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Xtci
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Posted - 2005.12.31 05:42:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Xtci on 31/12/2005 05:43:59
Edited by: Xtci on 31/12/2005 05:43:22
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Now, end price of a product always been carreid over to the end cosumer (the buyer). If the cost of RAM Starship techs rise to a mill a part, that would mean 12 mill added to build a HAC, also added to the price of the end consumer.
Your argument holds no water. Let me throw some numbers out there for you..
Using an Unresearched Ishtar as my example and best prices in Essence Region
Item (Amount) {Cost} total
Construction Blocks (110) {470.33isk) 51736.3isk
Crystaline Carbonide Armor Plate (330) {7500isk} 2475000isk
Fusion Reactor Unit (165) {29500) 4867500isk
Ion Thruster (110) {14999isk} 1649890isk
Magnetometric Sensor Cluster (275) {12000isk} 3300000isk
Morphine (110) {24500isk} 2695000isk
Mocxium (111) {349.95isk} 38844.45isk
Oscillatpr Capacitor Unit (165) {10891.22isk} 1797051.3isk
Photon Microprocessor (165) {14225.32isk} 2347177.8isk
Pulse Shield Emitter (330) {14400isk} 4752000isk
RAM - Starship (12) {1000000isk} 12000000isk
Vexor (1) {4051000isk} 4051000isk
Giving you a total cost to build of 40025199.85isk+ factory costs
Now the best price for the Ishtar on the market is 150000000isk.
This is a markup of 109974800.15isk for each unit, a 375% markup.
QUIT whining and suckup the cost.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.12.31 05:52:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Xtci
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Now, end price of a product always been carreid over to the end cosumer (the buyer). If the cost of RAM Starship techs rise to a mill a part, that would mean 12 mill added to build a HAC, also added to the price of the end consumer.
Your argument holds no water. Let me throw some numbers out there for you..
Using an Unresearched Ishtar as my example and best prices in Essence Region
Item (Amount) {Cost} total
Construction Blocks (110) {470.33isk) 51736.3isk
Crystaline Carbonide Armor Plate (330) {7500isk} 2475000isk
Fusion Reactor Unit (165) {29500) 4867500isk
Ion Thruster (110) {14999isk} 1649890isk
Magnetometric Sensor Cluster (275) {12000isk} 3300000isk
Morphine (110) {24500isk} 2695000isk
Mocxium (111) {349.95isk} 38844.45isk
Oscillatpr Capacitor Unit (165) {10891.22isk} 1797051.3isk
Photon Microprocessor (165) {14225.32isk} 2347177.8isk
Pulse Shield Emitter (330) {14400isk} 4752000isk
RAM - Starship (12) {1000000isk} 12000000isk
Vexor (1) {4051000isk} 4051000isk
Giving you a total cost to build of 25199.85iskactory costs
Now the best price for the Ishtar on the market is 150000000isk.
This is a markup of 109974800.15isk for each unit, a 375% markup.
QUIT whining and suckup the cost.
I dont build hac's regulary, sometimes I do when a mate lend me his print. I just told how it is, not how would be perfect for everyone. Its the buyers who set the price. No buyers want to buy? You will see price go down. But you dont see price go down do you? And items get sold still.
This thread is about supply and demand of RAM TECH's. Pricing of t2 products doesnt really matter.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Xtci
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Posted - 2005.12.31 06:00:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
This thread is about supply and demand of RAM TECH's. Pricing of t2 products doesnt really matter.
No this thread is a whine about the price being charged for those RAM Techs on the market. The availability of RAM has greatly increased, even if the number of people actually doing the missions and getting them has not. Continually through this thread is complaints about people charging 1million isk for each RAM Tech and that the tech 2 BPO owners are either not going to be able to produce or will have to pass the charges on to the buyer. My point is that its total crap. The tech 2 bpo owners have inflated the prices so much that they don't want their profit margin cut into.
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Telemicus Thrace
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Posted - 2005.12.31 06:46:00 -
[88]
Did a quick scan and decided I have better things to do than read this whole thread flames and all. Sorry if this info is already known, unwanted or off topic.
Thrace Inc and a few others have put their surplus of RAMs on the market in the Heimatar region. Ours go for less than 500k per unit which given the demand at the moment seems a fair price (profit margins are not exclusive to lottery winners )
"I cannot hear what you say for the thunder of what you are." - Zulu proverb. |
Xtra Bitter
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Posted - 2005.12.31 09:18:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
....
1 There is not enough RAM's available i dont know where you get the idea enough are dropping from but its completely incorrect.
2 The BP's that we have taken out of production due to small margins are currently being researched once this is finished depending on lab availability we may well do some copying. Dont expect too many to come from this route there isnt exactly a huge surplus of labs.
3 Once you can explain why iso is being price fixed at 100 to 120 unit and not bring sold at 64 i will take your argument about pricing by producers seriously. Nobody with any commercial sense sells anything for less that a buyer will pay for it ever in any world and I fail to see why so many people think otherwise. The ideal position for most tech 2 producers is to sell 100% of what they produce on a weekly basis. If a weeks production sells in a day or two the price is increased until it takes roughly a week. If they dont sell at all the price is decreased. No one suddenly decides to increase a price if an item isnt selling quickly.
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Leowen
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Posted - 2005.12.31 10:49:00 -
[90]
The thing that gets me about threads like this is it gets comments from so many people who really don't have a clue
Once again... Somewhere in the region of 50k RAM Starship are needed PER WEEK to sustan T2 production as it has been. There are not enough mission runners out there to get that many RAMs from agents at the current drop-rate.
Where they are is irrelevant, what price they are is irrelevant. There are not enough. Period. CCP know this which is why they are fixing it. The gems of wisdom in this thread from people who have never built T2 yet claim to know it all won't change that.
Leo
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