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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:31:00 -
[1]
part of the hardware upgrades include moving to 64 bit architecture. this obviously updating a lot of the server software
i was just wondering:
How long does it take (man hours) to update the server software?
How many man hours would it take to do 64bit client software?
Are there any plans to do so?
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:34:00 -
[2]
It's not a case of simply upgrading the software. A lot of work would need to be done in order to make the most of the 64 bit processors some people have.
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Sakira LeCastantas
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:36:00 -
[3]
Omg I want an eve client running 64-bit 
my 64-bit amd-proccie would get some use then lol
____________________________________________________
Turbo-Mode
The sig I had before had no hills, hail Justus Imperius |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:42:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Nyphur
It's not a case of simply upgrading the software. A lot of work would need to be done in order to make the most of the 64 bit processors some people have.
i recognise it would be a pretty large amount of work - i was just wondering how large exactly, and how much of the work would already have been completed by updating the server software (which is being done)
the obvious problems are:
not everyone uses 64 bit processors (and many of those who do don't use a 64bit OS)
it means keeping 2 active versions of the client at any one time
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babyblue
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:43:00 -
[5]
If it's coded properly, it should just be a recompile to x64 target  .
The main trouble is that you have to "touch" all code paths, to fully test it. This is a VERY time consuming process.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:44:00 -
[6]
I'll bet they could make a 64 bit version of the core rendering engine without a serious amount of work. Then they'd have a 64 bit client and a 32 bit client and you could run whichever one you want.
The source engine just released a 64 bit version.
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Tar om
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:44:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Tar om on 29/12/2005 22:44:20
Another question would be: "How much of an improvement in performance would you get from a 64 bit client?" It seems that the server needs 64bit because the single threads which run a system (or more) are reaching the limits of addressable memory under 32bits, is the client hitting similar limits?
EVE certainly benefits from a hike in raw CPU "power" (CPU power being something quite hard to quantify), but maybe CCP would be better rewarded by rewriting the graphics system to take advantage of hardware acceleration available from modern graphics cards rather than going 64 bit?
Tar om
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
"The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions." |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: babyblue
If it's coded properly, it should just be a recompile to x64 target
i've never coded anything (and my code is pretty simple - nothing like a game engine) into anything but x86 - i kinda assumed it would be harder than that to make it x64
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babyblue
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: babyblue
If it's coded properly, it should just be a recompile to x64 target
i've never coded anything (and my code is pretty simple - nothing like a game engine) into anything but x86 - i kinda assumed it would be harder than that to make it x64
Well x64 is shorthand for 64 bit. Compile to target, fix the warnings then spend six months testing.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Nyphur
The source engine just released a 64 bit version.
thats where i got the idea 
theres a 64bit version of far cry floating around as well
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babyblue
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Nyphur
The source engine just released a 64 bit version.
thats where i got the idea
theres a 64bit version of far cry floating around as well
Ahh. I bought farcry, installed it, went for a swim (the beach just looks ******* gorgeous), then didn't play it any more. I'm saving it for a future cold winter evening.
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Cairo dog
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:51:00 -
[12]
Originally by: babyblue
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Nyphur
The source engine just released a 64 bit version.
thats where i got the idea
theres a 64bit version of far cry floating around as well
Ahh. I bought farcry, installed it, went for a swim (the beach just looks ******* gorgeous), then didn't play it any more. I'm saving it for a future cold winter evening.
I've got an AMD 64 bit but when I tried that Far-Cry 64 bit it never worked :( Never got round to trying to fix it though.
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The Holy God of Yemen ( It's a real place! Why has knowone ever heard of it?)
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Fooball
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Posted - 2005.12.29 22:52:00 -
[13]
Although you wouldn't get everything out of the version compiled against the 64-bit Windows and DirectX libraries, those parts would act faster. The more of the Client is written in high level languages and with good level of abstraction and with good style the easier it also is to compile.
Some software has been ready in almost like a snap of fingers. However the 64-bit Windowses are more like intermediate versions with their current driver support etc. It's better to wait for Vista. 
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Ukucia
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Posted - 2005.12.30 06:57:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ukucia on 30/12/2005 06:57:30
Originally by: Fooball
It's better to wait for Vista.
Or you could wait for there to be a compelling reason to upgrade to 64-bit on the desktop.
Only environments I'm aware of that actually benefit from real 64-bit (not just the faster 64-bit processors) are very large server apps, like Eve's servers. There's very few times when being able to count to 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 is handy on a desktop.
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Embattle
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Posted - 2005.12.30 07:04:00 -
[15]
64bit Eve on the client side isn't needed.
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Navy Raven just went up in smoke.....nuts. |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.12.30 07:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Embattle
64bit Eve on the client side isn't needed.
Considering 32 bit processors are being completely left behind on the market, yes it is. 64 bit game clients will be coming out for all major games, I gather. Eve should not be any different.
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Ardipithecus Ramidus
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Posted - 2005.12.30 07:24:00 -
[17]
Oh, so just do it because everyone else is doing it? I prefer to have all the devs working to make one client work better, not to split them between two different versions.
The last thing I want is for CCP to start doing what all the other companies out there are doing simply because they are doing it. If they do something like issue a second version of the client, there'd better be a compelling technical reason to do it, not just a "everyone else is doing it." The system is too tempermental to be tampered with on a whim. CCP does an excellent job, I wouldn't want them to scramble for something that adds little to no functionality for the end user.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.12.30 07:29:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ardipithecus Ramidus
The last thing I want is for CCP to start doing what all the other companies out there are doing simply because they are doing it.
How about to improve performance?
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Steven Dynahir
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Posted - 2005.12.30 08:32:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Another question would be: "How much of an improvement in performance would you get from a 64 bit client?" It seems that the server needs 64bit because the single threads which run a system (or more) are reaching the limits of addressable memory under 32bits, is the client hitting similar limits?
Let's assume from former experience..
Setup1: Opteron, 7800GTX, WinXP x32, HL2 x32, FPS 100
Setup2: Opteron, 7800GTX, WinXP x64, HL2 x32, FPS 100
Setup3: Opteron, 7800GTX, WinXP x64, HL2 x64, FPS 115
In this case, overal increase when switching to full x64 was 15%. This might be the same case for EVE client, so expected performance increase might be near to 20% (I think EVE is more processor heavy than HL2, which is graphics heavy).
And in the case above, only thing happening was that the processor worked on native x64 code, and the processor works better with it.
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Home, sweet home. |
TerrorWOLF
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Posted - 2005.12.30 08:32:00 -
[20]
I think like 95% to 97% are running 32bit systems. And upgrading the processor isn't enough you need to upgrade the OS all drivers (64bit for XP are to loved from hardware manufacturers). The 64bit client will be a necessary when 50% or more are running 32bit systems and most of people don't buy a new PC every year.
May Your Death Be Slow And Painful
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.12.30 09:33:00 -
[21]
I went 64bit because it reminded me of my old Commodore 64.
Oh, and because the 64bit version of my 3d software runs 25%+ faster than the 32bit version.
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The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.12.30 09:39:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Avon
I went 64bit because it reminded me of my old Commodore 64.
Oh, and because the 64bit version of my 3d software runs 25%+ faster than the 32bit version.
I went 64 bit because I am stupid. Seriously, I got the Socket 754 Athlon 64 3000+ when it came out. Emphasis on the "Socket 754". I can't upgrade this thing without getting a new motherboard too. Not that it'll matter because they're doing away with socket 939 soon too.
I wouldn't have been annoyed but some major events delayed the uptake of 64 bit architecture into the software market. By the time anything decent I use has a 64 bit client comes out, it'll be time to upgrade (read: Throw this piece of crap out).
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.12.30 09:41:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sakira LeCastantas
Omg I want an eve client running 64-bit
my 64-bit amd-proccie would get some use then lol
QFT!
And there are a fair few games that have both 32 and 64 bit versions running at the same time, afaik, such as the aforementioned source.
Educating Eve forum denizens as to the error of their ways since 2005. |
Rhyslin
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Posted - 2005.12.30 09:52:00 -
[24]
I am not familiar with the x64 architecture, only with the architecture of a different 64-bit processor. However, it is not necessarily the case that all 64 bit apps will get a speed increase.
1) 64-bit h/w can generally run a 32-bit application without any speed degradation. This is usually a design constraint because almost all applications will not get recompiled for a long time, and you'd lose speed benchmarks during the interim.
2) 64-bit math can usually be done in a 32-bit application without making the whole application 64-bit.
3) A 64-bit application (generally) uses what is called an LP64 model, which means that longs and pointers become 64-bits. This means that data structures generally become bigger. This means they have higher memory consumption while running, as well as worse locality of reference, thus potentially increasing paging, and thus decreasing performance. Also, depending on the instruction set, loading a 64-bit pointer may take more time.
4) If data is to be stored on disk, and accessed by both 32-bit and 64-bit apps, you have to be careful that your data structures didn't change size. Also, if you were sloppy, and used the 32-bit assumption that a C long == int, your code will break.
5) The big win for 64-bit apps is with the amount of memory that can be accessed through a pointer without using some sort of application-based caching/paging. This is why it is often said that 64-bit is only of use on server systems, which have need of > 2 or 4 GB of address space (can depend on the processor and OS architecture).
So, that's why it's not clear that the client needs to be 64-bit. And given the effort at porting, and at testing both versions, it's not clear that it's a big win.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.12.30 10:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Avon
I went 64bit because it reminded me of my old Commodore 64.
Oh, and because the 64bit version of my 3d software runs 25%+ faster than the 32bit version.
I went 64 bit because I am stupid. Seriously, I got the Socket 754 Athlon 64 3000+ when it came out. Emphasis on the "Socket 754". I can't upgrade this thing without getting a new motherboard too. Not that it'll matter because they're doing away with socket 939 soon too.
I wouldn't have been annoyed but some major events delayed the uptake of 64 bit architecture into the software market. By the time anything decent I use has a 64 bit client comes out, it'll be time to upgrade (read: Throw this piece of crap out).
My main box is a 3400+ on 754 and is pretty damn fast.
I went 754 by choice too. (cost:performance)
______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
space fox
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Posted - 2005.12.30 10:15:00 -
[26]
amd venice core 3200+ 64 bit, socet 939, its a dream to use after my 1.8
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Bligger II
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Posted - 2005.12.30 10:51:00 -
[27]
IF CCP is thinking about a x64 client it might be a good idea to publish a beta client very early for an open beta to be used on your own risk. I am shure I am not the only one who would give it a try and help testing
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.12.30 11:00:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cairo dog
Originally by: babyblue
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Nyphur
The source engine just released a 64 bit version.
thats where i got the idea
theres a 64bit version of far cry floating around as well
Ahh. I bought farcry, installed it, went for a swim (the beach just looks ******* gorgeous), then didn't play it any more. I'm saving it for a future cold winter evening.
I've got an AMD 64 bit but when I tried that Far-Cry 64 bit it never worked :( Never got round to trying to fix it though.
you have to be running windows x64 to use it i think
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n1r4
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Posted - 2005.12.30 11:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: space fox
amd venice core 3200+ 64 bit, socet 939, its a dream to use after my 1.8
I had a athlon xp 1.8 and upgraded to a opteron 144 OC @ 2.8 now I can finally max out on games 
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Gothikia
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Posted - 2005.12.30 11:13:00 -
[30]
i would just like to state that it isn't as easy as some people in this thread have made it out to be. I use fairly the same technology as CCP does for EVE and porting EVE to x64 is no small task. The biggest challenge they currently have is porting stackless python to x64, which is why they have brought in Christian Tismer (the guy who created stackless) to help them out. Hopefully Tismer will release some news on x64 stackless soon
And yeah, EVE could seriously do with a graphics overhaul. I think its long overdue and i have a feeling we might see the start of it with KALI, but thats just based on all the dev blogs, news articles, dev posts and things that were said at fanfest. 
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