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Sky' Darkstar
Dark Star Operations.
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 13:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
So,
I'm pretty sure this would be the correct place to post this.
First off, if you came expecting a rage thread about being blown up and a pirate lying through their teeth, I'm afraid you will be sorely disappointed.
This is actually quite the opposite.
This is a simple question to all of the pirates, victims of piracy, low-sec dwellers who have seen the pirate/victim banter in local, and just generally anyone with an opinion on the "honor" within EVE related to piracy/ganking/griefing.
I'll cut to the chase.
I've been reading various threads within C&P as well as other sub forums, and I am getting a sort of hypocritical and inconsistent viewpoint from the EVE population relating to what "honor" is in EVE concerning piracy/ransoms specifically.
CCP Falcon can be quoted shaming "dishonorable" piracy, in which the pirate does not honor a simple ship ransom, but then will post in heist threads congratulating the corp thief.
Popular/Well-known pilots from pirate alliances such as (just an example) Shadow Cartel can be found strongly disapproving/calling out pirates who blow up a ship after a ransom is already paid, but can then found mocking a "stupid" Indy pilot who just lost his Itty I/Badger to their 25 man camp with no chance of survival.
Now, as I said before, I have absolutely no problem, and actually encourage any sort of piracy in EVE because it is one of the most fun activities to partake in. However I am slightly confused on the aspect of how "honoring ransom" is such a huge " OMG NO HONOR UR NOT A REAL PIRATE U HAVE NO HONOR IN A SPACESHIP VIDEOGAME!!" freakout when it comes to this one specific aspect of piracy.
(no sarcasm) Is it a business thing? Do other pirates really believe that if their pirate...er...competition.... doesn't honor ransoms that it will cut into their profits?
In modern day EVE, where people don't even bat an eye at a billion ISK exchanging hands, is ransoming income still actually used as a means to fuel an account/ship replacements?
It is just odd to me that we have these "white knight" pirates/mindset that think they can define piracy just because they perform it a certain way and attach "honor" onto situations that fit them, while disregarding it when it doesn't apply to their play style that day.
If blowing someone up after they paid a ransom to you while warp scrambled and helpless is not "honorable piracy", then neither is smartbombing on the exit gate of Amamake, getting close to a CEO just to steal 100B down the road, or recruiting a corpmate that flies shinies only to blow them up. So why do we pretend to ignore "honor" in those cases and just say the catchy "EVE is a hard backstabbing universe etc etc", but scream "NO HONOR URA FAKE PIR8!!!" when it comes to not honoring ship ransoms?
Honor =/= Being a pirate, and that's totally fine!, and also a great/enjoyable part about being the outlaw. I would like opinions please! -Sky' |
Kristoffon Ellecon
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
99
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 13:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
tl,dr |
Sky' Darkstar
Dark Star Operations.
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 13:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:tl,dr
Yes you did, because you saw Shadow Cartel in it. -Sky' |
Pouzdani Patches
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 15:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Consider this:
-In an incident such as a gatecamp, a corp theft or other activities that are thought of as morally dubious, the concept of 'honor' is never introduced in the first place - you act as a hunter and the person on the receiving end is prey, there's no consent, there's no compromise, there are no rules of fair engagement and therefore no one in their right mind will complain about it being dishonorable - of course it's dishonorable, but that was never questioned and it can't be any other way. There are no honorable gatecamps/corp thefts/other manipulative and devious scenarios.
-On the other hand, you have a ransoming situation. The victim has stopped resisting and has willingly gave itself over to the aggressor's mercy, instead of going down fighting and screaming bloody murder in Local. This is where 'honor' comes into play - it is introduced into the scenario by both the victim and the perpetrator consenting to negotiations. There are only two outcomes here (apart from the possibility of a third party joining):
1) The pirate honoring the ransom, willingly reducing his profits and killboard in favor of cutting the victim some slack for whatever reason
2) The pirate not honoring the ransom, abusing the trust the victim gave him for extra profit, out of sadism, spite, Schadenfreude or whatever other reason.
You might ask 'but how is this different from a contract scam, or a corp theft or safari?'. The answer is easy, and it returns us to what I wrote in the first paragraph - there was never honor in such schemes. For example, it is impossible to AWOX in a honorable way, and it's entirely possible to honor a ransom and therefore be a honorable pirate.
I think the distinction is clear enough, but if anyone can correct me, feel free to.
|
Malcolm Shinhwa
bad touches
172
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 15:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Some honor ransoms, some don't. I don't get the big mystery. If I personally offered someone a ransom to keep me from blowing up their ship, I'd honor it. But I love Psychotic Monk like a brother he doesn't know he has, and he'll ransom your ship, blow you up, and post your tears on his blog and I'm Ok with that too.
Pirates... do piratey things like lie, cheat, steal, kill. I have 5 different chars that I play. This may be my main, or maybe not. I have no idea. |
Baaldor
Capsuleer Outfitters Easily Excited
70
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 16:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
"Honoring" ransoms for most organizations is just good for business.
The "Honor" Bushido crap comes from the entitled crowd of lemmings that believe their world view applies to all.
Days of Ginger, Tiller and the lot are gone.....these days are strange indeed. |
Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
490
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 16:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote: So,
I'm pretty sure this would be the correct place to post this. P
First off, if you came expecting a rage thread about being blown up and a pirate lying through their teeth, I'm afraid you will be sorely disappointed. Sad
This is actually quite the opposite.
This is a simple question to all of the pirates, victims of piracy, low-sec dwellers who have seen the pirate/victim banter in local, and just generally anyone with an opinion on the "honor" within EVE related to piracy/ganking/griefing.
I'll cut to the chase.
Unfortunately, by this point, I didn't care about the chase. http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/ |
Sky' Darkstar
Dark Star Operations.
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 16:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Princess Bride wrote:Quote: So,
I'm pretty sure this would be the correct place to post this. P
First off, if you came expecting a rage thread about being blown up and a pirate lying through their teeth, I'm afraid you will be sorely disappointed. Sad
This is actually quite the opposite.
This is a simple question to all of the pirates, victims of piracy, low-sec dwellers who have seen the pirate/victim banter in local, and just generally anyone with an opinion on the "honor" within EVE related to piracy/ganking/griefing.
I'll cut to the chase.
Unfortunately, by this point, I didn't care about the chase.
Cared enough to post. -Sky' |
Mike Adoulin
Trans-Aerospace Industries
316
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 16:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
'Old' school piracy (where you could actually make a business out of ransoming miners, haulers, etc) is dead and has been for quite a while.
It has been replaced by griefercorps who either threaten to wardec a mining/indy corp if they aren't paid, or they ask for the money after the wardec and they have disrupted the targets operations.
Most hisec non-combat corps either dock up or pay. A rare few fight, or hire mercs. Sometimes they even hire good mercs..... |
Baaldor
Capsuleer Outfitters Easily Excited
70
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 17:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mike Adoulin wrote:'Old' school piracy (where you could actually make a business out of ransoming miners, haulers, etc) is dead and has been for quite a while.
It has been replaced by griefercorps who either threaten to wardec a mining/indy corp if they aren't paid, or they ask for the money after the wardec and they have disrupted the targets operations.
Most hisec non-combat corps either dock up or pay. A rare few fight, or hire mercs. Sometimes they even hire good mercs.....
That is because you had a bunch of fags running around stomping their webbed feet clamoring "Hell no we won't pay"...so the best way to get them is to war dec. |
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Comrade Answers
State War Academy Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 17:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Follow up questions:
Is low sec piracy still a thing? Can you turn off smartbomb cycle fast enough to demand ransom?
|
Sky' Darkstar
Dark Star Operations.
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 17:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Comrade Answers wrote:Follow up questions:
Is low sec piracy still a thing? Can you turn off smartbomb cycle fast enough to demand ransom?
1. Absolutely. It's a blast, and one of the main reasons I play EVE.
2. I have no idea from personal experience. But the server ticks one second at a time, so I'd assume if you were lucky when deactivating it and didn't alpha the ship, it could work.
-Sky' |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
143
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 18:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hisec piracy is where its at. Just like climbing a trellace into your girlfriends bedroom and delivering the goods while her parents are sleeping next door, nothing is a substitute for getting away with asshattery in hisec while CONCORD is nearby on gate...
Would you like to know more? |
Karl Planck
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
338
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 18:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Comrade Answers wrote:Follow up questions:
Is low sec piracy still a thing? Can you turn off smartbomb cycle fast enough to demand ransom?
yes, i received a 200mil pod ransom yesterday.
yes and no, you can blow up a ship and leave the pod to be ransomed, technically. However they will be close enough to jump out so its not really an option.
To answer the OP, honoring ransoms and 1v1's are not accepted across all groups. However, most long term lowsec organizations that typically affiliate themselves with piracy honor ransoms because we have a reputation of honoring them and profit from it.
The same goes for 1v1s, which again, most reputable lowsec organizations honor. We do so because it benefits our game style as well as our day to day play.
When comparing ransom honoring against gate camping or suicide ganking it isn't really a fair comparison. Ships are almost NEVER ransomed because it is more profitable to simply blow a loot pinata up and see what drops. PODS on the other hand are worth ransoming as usually there is not a direct profit that can be gained from killing pods.
Is gatecamping / smartbombing / hot dropping / ganking / blobbing / falconing / off grid boosting / scamming / market manipulation / general eve gameplay honorable? IDK, does it really matter? The whole thing about this e-honor of piracy is that many strive to uphold a reputation that gets them more good fights and nets a small profit from a situation where there typically is none. Proud CEO of Heretic Army and loyal servent to Mother Amamake. COME AT ME BRO! Forums: http://forum.heretic-army.biz/index.php-á Killboard: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/ Follow me on twitter @KarlPlanck |
El Zeta
Industrias del Norte
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 21:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
I am selling apples and oranges
never mind you cant tell the difference |
Zappity
Kurved Space
300
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 22:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Not honouring a ransom is shortsighted stupidity. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Sky' Darkstar
Dark Star Operations.
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 22:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Not honouring a ransom is shortsighted stupidity.
Why?
Just from a business/ISK making perspective?
-Sky' |
Sabriz Adoudel
Oppan Ganknam Style
658
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 00:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
I always encourage people to honour ransoms, because it is more profitable in the long term.
Particularly in AWOX situations, where you might just be able to find someone still in space AFK in a Mackinaw after you ransom the corp Orca, and the reputation you got for letting the Orca go (for 400m or whatever you charge) stands you in good stead to get 150m out of the Mack pilot. Let them go, then demand 250m more to drop corp, and suddenly you are up 800m ISK as opposed to just 400m and a killmail. Miner euthanization expert. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. |
Zappity
Kurved Space
301
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 01:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sky' Darkstar wrote:Zappity wrote:Not honouring a ransom is shortsighted stupidity. Why? Just from a business/ISK making perspective?
Yes. See the post above for one example. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Sky' Darkstar
Dark Star Operations.
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 01:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Sky' Darkstar wrote:Zappity wrote:Not honouring a ransom is shortsighted stupidity. Why? Just from a business/ISK making perspective? Yes. See the post above for one example.
Gotcha, and fully understood. It's the "pirate honor" concept that is lost on me.
I can completely get the business perspective. -Sky' |
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Andracin
Sickology
196
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 02:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
I look at it in organized crime terms. If Im shaking down a gas station owner for money and he pays me what good does it do for me to shoot him? The next guy guy I shake down probably isn't going to pay if he hears about the first. If your in a location in low sec long enough your reputation proceeds you, especially with repeat vic...er customers.
For me I enjoy low sec around FW areas because there is almost always instant pvp as soon as I log in. I don't gank people in plexes to be a deuche. I do it because Im looking for a fight. There have been several times I've talked with my victims after and the polite ones usually end up getting ships, isk and adivce on things from fittings to tactics. Im not alone one of my corp mates fit and gave away an incursus to a guy he had just killed who had only played for a week. |
Maccian
Soul Takers
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 02:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Interesting post.
Honour is such a big word.... I think its more about respect and trust. If a pirate pods someone after successfully ransoming their pod the pirate involved will loose respect and trust from that victim and gain a reputation for it. That goes for the corporation/alliance as well. Next time around that pirate or entity encounters a situation where he sees profit from a deal of sorts with their victims there is less chance a deal will be struck because of a lack of trust and respect.
Tell me if you think otherwise but I think "almost" all pirates would agree with the above.
Personally I almost never ransom people, unless on the rare occasion I think the ISK that could be made beats what I value the kill mail. I may however want to ransom only to troll someone. More often than ransoming I have let people's pods go. For me, there isn't enough profit in ransoming pods. I have also tried in the past and been refused, whether it was because of the general trust in a pirates honour or because I just ruined their day I don;t know. The few ransoms I bothered with and were successful I honoured.
Another point is Its similar to honouring agreed 1v1s. If a corp doesn't have a reputaion for it they can't expect anyone to ask or believe them.
Mac |
Tara Read
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
554
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 04:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sky' Darkstar wrote:So, I'm pretty sure this would be the correct place to post this. First off, if you came expecting a rage thread about being blown up and a pirate lying through their teeth, I'm afraid you will be sorely disappointed. This is actually quite the opposite. This is a simple question to all of the pirates, victims of piracy, low-sec dwellers who have seen the pirate/victim banter in local, and just generally anyone with an opinion on the "honor" within EVE related to piracy/ganking/griefing. I'll cut to the chase.I've been reading various threads within C&P as well as other sub forums, and I am getting a sort of hypocritical and inconsistent viewpoint from the EVE population relating to what "honor" is in EVE concerning piracy/ransoms specifically. CCP Falcon can be quoted shaming "dishonorable" piracy, in which the pirate does not honor a simple ship ransom, but then will post in heist threads congratulating the corp thief. Popular/Well-known pilots from pirate alliances such as (just an example) Shadow Cartel can be found strongly disapproving/calling out pirates who blow up a ship after a ransom is already paid, but can then found mocking a "stupid" Indy pilot who just lost his Itty I/Badger to their 25 man camp with no chance of survival. Now, as I said before, I have absolutely no problem, and actually encourage any sort of piracy in EVE because it is one of the most fun activities to partake in. However I am slightly confused on the aspect of how "honoring ransom" is such a huge " OMG NO HONOR UR NOT A REAL PIRATE U HAVE NO HONOR IN A SPACESHIP VIDEOGAME!!" freakout when it comes to this one specific aspect of piracy. (no sarcasm) Is it a business thing? Do other pirates really believe that if their pirate...er...competition.... doesn't honor ransoms that it will cut into their profits? In modern day EVE, where people don't even bat an eye at a billion ISK exchanging hands, is ransoming income still actually used as a means to fuel an account/ship replacements? It is just odd to me that we have these "white knight" pirates/mindset that think they can define piracy just because they perform it a certain way and attach "honor" onto situations that fit them, while disregarding it when it doesn't apply to their play style that day. If blowing someone up after they paid a ransom to you while warp scrambled and helpless is not "honorable piracy", then neither is smartbombing on the exit gate of Amamake, getting close to a CEO just to steal 100B down the road, or recruiting a corpmate that flies shinies only to blow them up. So why do we pretend to ignore "honor" in those cases and just say the catchy "EVE is a hard backstabbing universe etc etc", but scream "NO HONOR URA FAKE PIR8!!!" when it comes to not honoring ship ransoms? Honor =/= Being a pirate, and that's totally fine!, and also a great/enjoyable part about being the outlaw. I would like opinions please!
I've covered this in detail in an earlier beta guide defining Piracy and specifically in the case of ransoming. Shadow Cartel holds itself to a higher standard than typical scum and for good reason: through trusted word uneasy bonds are formed. Those who call upon us for juicy kills be they a Nyx, Erebus, Moros, or other typical big targets requiring firepower we can muster knows that one simple fact remains: our word is bond.
Go back on your word and people stop calling. Trust dries up. You garner a reputation of "just being like everyone else." Piracy "Honor" is simply a matter of convenience tied in with the truth that motive and bigger gains are to be had if one only has the patience and looking at the forest from the tree's in matters than even those seen in the immediate.
I'll put it to you this way in the case of ransoming. Reputation is everything. Sure you could go back on your word, kill a Faction BS and take whatever loot drops plus the bounty. But think of the long term. No one trusts you. No one accepts your offer of ransom. Because you burned a crucial bridge between victim and Pirate.
Power is not just blowing someone up or bragging on a certain killmail. It's control that counts. Instilling dominance over a potential target, letting you show them that through frail mercy restraint and maturity is proven in spite of short sighted gains. And THAT is when you've arrived.
Piracy isn't a meager profession. It's a way of life. A way of code bathed in the blood of enemies, forged through the fires of combat, tested in the face of riches, and one of the harshest yet most rewarding paths you can take in New Eden....
"Honorable" Piracy is far from dead. In fact it's stronger than it has ever been. Ransoms have turned into huge potential kills, victims to entire fleets, and simple "loot" into swathes of Billions of isk... Adapting is always at the forefront of those in Eve. Adapt toward the new ways of Piracy and great reward is to be had if only you have patience. Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at hoistthecolors.org |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
232
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 05:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sky' Darkstar wrote:
I've been reading various threads within C&P as well as other sub forums, and I am getting a sort of hypocritical and inconsistent viewpoint from the EVE population relating to what "honor" is in EVE concerning piracy/ransoms specifically.
CCP Falcon can be quoted shaming "dishonorable" piracy, in which the pirate does not honor a simple ship ransom, but then will post in heist threads congratulating the corp thief.
Its not an inconsistent outlook imo.
It is reasonable for a victim of someone that doesn't honor their word to spread the word about that fact, and its reasonable for a CCP employee to encourage that behavior. ie they intend after all for there to be reactions to actions in the game. CCP would also be perfectly happy to see 20 such victims jump through the gate where that pirate worked, and give that pirate and his crew a royal spanking, and thats not going to occur if victims never think about standing up for themselves in a multiplayer game.
It is also reasonable for a CCP employee to encourage perpetrators of heists, because they also intend for it to be part of possible gameplay, and falcon would be just as likely to congratulate a recruitment officer for spotting an applicant with a history if he happened to be engaged in that thread.
I'm also perfectly happy with _my_ lowsec being defended by bloodthirsty dishonorable pirates who would take my ship if given a chance, since I don't have to pay them and I'd have to shoot bear that was in _my_ content myself all the time otherwise.
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Don Purple
Snuggle Factory
68
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 05:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
I honor my ransoms if we have time to chat, most of my work is done through contracts and I believe any of my previous clients can vouch for me. I will not shoot a contract holder even if their minions are trying to station camp me or some foolish notion like that (unless told otherwise). I got bored in low sec real fast, all the fun is our here in high sec. On another note a good friend tossed me 10b in a game to question my integrity and I gave it back without a second thought. On hindsight I probably should have kept it, so many gank talos's lost . (said person may or may not have had large amounts of blackmail material) |
Sabriz Adoudel
Oppan Ganknam Style
658
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 06:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Comrade Answers wrote:Follow up questions:
Is low sec piracy still a thing? Can you turn off smartbomb cycle fast enough to demand ransom?
Lowsec piracy is in a bad way at the moment unless you pick one of a small number of systems where it is effective. Doing this might involve dislodging an entity that are already there.
Jump freighters in particular, and ore compression to a lesser extent, drastically reduce the amount of vulnerable slow ships travelling through lowsec. Exploration changes in Odyssey partially improved this, but they don't encourage people to fly expensive ships in lowsec. Whilst you will occasionally catch someone with valuable cargo, it's not that often.
Highsec piracy is better as there is just much more prey.
As for smartbombs - ask one of the experts in Rancer local. Make sure to enter via Crilere (sp) so you live long enough to ask. Miner euthanization expert. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. |
Lugia3
Pirates Incorporated
542
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 09:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Honor is bad for business. Yarr |
Tara Read
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
556
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 10:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lugia3 wrote:Honor is bad for business.
You are so wrong.... Business is propagated through reputation. Have a reputation for being an awoxing, lying sack of monkey Sh%t and no one will every consider you for "business" no matter what including risking assets or letting you come along for juicy kills. I have the privilege of being a contact for various persons if needed to be called upon.
That's something I pride myself on. Garnering a reputation for being fierce, ruthless, yet almost fanatically loyal in word and action goes along way when something big is on the line.
Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at hoistthecolors.org |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Suddenly Spaceships.
800
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 10:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
Sky' Darkstar wrote:Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:tl,dr Yes you did, because you saw Shadow Cartel in it. **** now I have to read it
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Zappity
Kurved Space
303
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 11:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Lugia3 wrote:Honor is bad for business.
When you grow up you will understand the importance of a reputation. It has tangible value and you are clearly not capitalising on it. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
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