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Algey	Posted - 2005.12.31 02:03:00 - [1] Earlier today I was cruising around in 0.3, minding my own business and slaughtering poor defenseless NPC rats. I was flying a Ferox, 2 assault, 3 heavy launchers, and 2 250 rails. This has a low cap need, and allows me to run a medium shield booster for a reasonable time. I was jumped by a pirate in a cruiser, who shot in like a missile (a MWD I expect) and began nossing me. I was unable to continue tanking, but fortunately I had a warp core stabaliser fitted and ran off (to taunts in local, seems I should have stayed there to let him blow me up). This happened a couple more times around the system, so I decided to go and collect a nosferatu (had to train the skill for it as well, but thats ok). Shortly after this I was again mooching around when an assault frigate decided to do the same thing. However this time I turned on the two nosferatu that I had replaced the rails with, the scrambler, and proceded to slowly club him to death with 5 heavy missiles and drones. Scratch one assault frigate, and watch the -10.0 pirate decide to walk home in a pod. The thing is I doubt that I could have killed this frigate without draining its cap, and I had removed all of my anti frigate weapons in the hope of meeting the other pirate in his cruiser. The question has to be, aren't these weapons a little too powerful against smaller ships? The frigate was toast as soon as he came close enough for the nos to work, and I didn't have a small nosferatu fitted. Also is there a defence against the nosferatu, or are they something that you have to have in a viable pvp setup?
Icee Cold	Posted - 2005.12.31 02:06:00 - [2] nos is the one thing that actually protects you from retards orbiting you at 500m. that and webber+drones. that being said i am one of those retards who orbits you at 500m ;)
Shintoko Akahoshi	Posted - 2005.12.31 02:49:00 - [3] Nosferatus are just another weapon, useful in certain circumstances and less useful in others. A larger ship with nosferatus can typically destroy a smaller ship that allows itself to be nossed, but that's the case with any weapons, really. A larger ship (say, a Ferox with heavy missiles) can destroy a frigate, if the missiles can hit it. Same thing. There are a number of things that smaller ships can do to avoid this: Stay out of nos range, swarm the target, jam the target, etc...
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.12.31 03:28:00 - [4] It should win anyway. It is a smaller ship. Smaller is not just a meaningless adjective. There are disadvantages at being smaller. A bigger ship would seek to exploit them. Your tactic was no more wrong that the tactic the gentleman mentioned of a smaller ship tightly orbiting a larger ship. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2005.12.31 03:41:00 - [5] Erm, did you have ab or web? Makes no sense to me that the af couldn't just move out of scramble range and warp off, unless you had one of those 2 mods fitted. p - l - u - r
Algey	Posted - 2005.12.31 07:23:00 - [6] Originally by: Ras Blumin Erm, did you have ab or web? Makes no sense to me that the af couldn't just move out of scramble range and warp off, unless you had one of those 2 mods fitted. He was in a Vengance, which couldn't get out of the 20km range quickly enough once he realised what was happening. That slug isn't hugely faster than a Ferox, and I surprised him and then chased him. Trust me I was more surprised than you, I expected to be popped by an assault frigate after I'd removed all of my light weapons, not to be looting a can of tech 2 stuff.
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.12.31 07:50:00 - [7] NOS is a potent equaliser at short range. Some of the theoretical engagements I've been running have indicated that Command ships may actually be better off keeping at 30km+, simply because of the effects of Heavy NOS on engagements. It's truely bizzare given prevailing tactical doctrine. Harry Voyager ____________________ I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums.
Tar om	Posted - 2005.12.31 08:28:00 - [8] NOS are pretty much the only advantage that big ships have over small ships these days. I think they should be kept. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
Prall	Posted - 2005.12.31 11:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Tar om NOS are pretty much the only advantage that big ships have over small ships these days. I think they should be kept. agreed.
Shin Ra	Posted - 2005.12.31 12:08:00 - [10] Nos is one of the only modules that gives a great advantage versus large and small ships. Unfortunatly, most ppl seem to think that a bs being able to kill a frig is a bad thing?
Grimwalius d'Antan	Posted - 2005.12.31 12:11:00 - [11] Lone frigs should have SOMETHING to stop them, and that is Nosferatus. More than 2 frigs and the bigger lone ship is gonna have trouble disabling them all.
Algey	Posted - 2005.12.31 12:20:00 - [12] Originally by: Shin Ra Nos is one of the only modules that gives a great advantage versus large and small ships. Unfortunatly, most ppl seem to think that a bs being able to kill a frig is a bad thing? I'm quite happy with being able to drain a frigate, however I think that maybe it should drain slightly slower on smaller targets, give them more of a chance to run off. What actually worries me is that I can't see any alternative to using them when I do start to pvp. Every single pirate that has jumped me has used a nasferatu, and if I don't fit one myself and there is no counter they will always kill me. Really I'm not keen on them, but I can't see any way round using them when I start to pvp seriously. Admitedly I only have 1.5M skill points, but I can't see them being much less devistating when I have more (Lo3d3R certainly had a lot more skill points and a tech 2 ship to boot).
Laythun	Posted - 2005.12.31 12:34:00 - [13] tbh, that pirate was a noob. the nos isnt ovr powered it was just poor planning by the pirate in the 1st place, you did exactly what you had to do. tbh the pirate should have tested your setup first, ie get in close and see if u have nos etc etc. and i dont know wat he was doin in an AF without a mwd or afb tut tut serves him right See Me! http://195.225.8.195:7090/listen.[/url]
Yarek Balear	Posted - 2005.12.31 12:41:00 - [14] Afterburner and MWD ain't gonna do much with no cap. He might have had either fitted and couldn't use em...
Algey	Posted - 2005.12.31 12:43:00 - [15] Originally by: Laythun tbh, that pirate was a noob. the nos isnt ovr powered it was just poor planning by the pirate in the 1st place, you did exactly what you had to do. tbh the pirate should have tested your setup first, ie get in close and see if u have nos etc etc. and i dont know wat he was doin in an AF without a mwd or afb tut tut serves him right He had a nice T2 ab, just no cap to run it with.
Laythun	Posted - 2005.12.31 13:06:00 - [16] well tbh, a med nosx2 shouldnt have killed his cap so quickly. i fly vengences all the time and even with an mwd the cap holds out. he most probably underestimaed you and got in close too fast. vengence w/t2 ab can hit 5-600 m/s and there should have been enough time and enough cap to get to 13km. See Me! http://195.225.8.195:7090/listen.[/url]
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.12.31 13:17:00 - [17] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 31/12/2005 13:23:58 In Yet Another Nos Thread. There are two different questions. The first question is, should a big ship be able to defend itself against smaller ship classes. The second is, are nosferatus fine as they are. As soon as someone start mixing both questions (especially since it's useful to do so because of how the confusion this brings into the debate helps drowning the fish) then the debate becomes irrational. Evidence? This forum needs a search function. One note though. People said that nosferatus allow battleships to fly solo. Whatever makes a ship able to fly solo and kill whatever size of ship solo, also makes mixed fleets a waste (in terms of opportunity costs), which is bad (why else would one bother specializing in any other kind of ship than the one able to deal with everything). And, as in the WCS discussion (Yet Another TM), whatever allows you to fly solo forces the enemy not to fly solo. Circular argument it is, says Yoda. In the meanwhile, fit nos, and "bigger = better". The basis of thinking with only one dimension (god forbig ships had specific roles). That's always where the discussion ends up so here's the shortcut. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. ---
Algey	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:30:00 - [18] Originally by: Laythun well tbh, a med nosx2 shouldnt have killed his cap so quickly. i fly vengences all the time and even with an mwd the cap holds out. he most probably underestimaed you and got in close too fast. vengence w/t2 ab can hit 5-600 m/s and there should have been enough time and enough cap to get to 13km. Thats good to know. That just leaves the second question. Is there any way for me to counter fast pirates with nosferatu, other than fitting them myself (a ferox can't really go faster)?
Lorth	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Shin Ra Nos is one of the only modules that gives a great advantage versus large and small ships. Unfortunatly, most ppl seem to think that a bs being able to kill a frig is a bad thing? Nope NOS are fine and needed. I'm going to take a guess and think you might be refering to me, or people like me, as Im been in more or less everyone of the Deterious(sp?) threads. BS's can and should be able to kill frigs. What they should \nt be able to do is be able to kill people using them in groups as an effective team. Nor should they be so adapt at killing frigs as to be immune from a group of players who only have a few tacklers. Its a balancing act. Not making frigs so powerfull against larger targets, yet ensuring that they don't die so readily that they are virtually usless as tacklers, and even in swarms. Right now I think they have it about right. Frigs survive ong enough to be effective tacklers, and in groups become a real threat to a battleship. Yet are still vonrable to many things such as nos, leaving more then enough options for the BS to dispatch said frig.
Artemnic	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:32:00 - [20] Originally by: Laythun well tbh, a med nosx2 shouldnt have killed his cap so quickly. i fly vengences all the time and even with an mwd the cap holds out. he most probably underestimaed you and got in close too fast. vengence w/t2 ab can hit 5-600 m/s and there should have been enough time and enough cap to get to 13km. Guess you never did any pirating? soon as you warp in red flashing your prey warps away no time to check out his setup befor scramming him, oh and ab/mwd doesnt work when your cap is dry
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.12.31 23:31:00 - [21] My personal opinion is this whole situation stems from the huge disparity in value between pilots and the ships they fly. Basically, a single pilot is worth more than any battleship, and, in many cases, even a Dreadnaught. We simply don't have the pilots to spare manning small ships, unless those ships have some semblance of parity to their larger brethren. If it weren't for the value of pilots, it would be perfectly acceptable to lose 20+ Tech I frigates to kill a single Battleship, yet because of the sheer value of the single player, a mere Frigate requires very nearly the same investment as a Battleship. In the long term, I think the only true solution will be to allow players to control multiple ships on a local scale, and limited by only the Server needs and financial resources. Only then would it become viable to have a system where large numbers of small ships can engage small numbers of heavies successfully, yet with significant losses, and retain balance. I think that Carriers are a step in the right direction, though I'm not as happy with the simplistic manner in which fighter and ewar drones have been implemented. What we need a controllables that can do what frigates do, but at the costs and skill investments that frigates require, not ships that cost 1/10th of a frigate and do 1/10th the effect. Harry Voyager ____________________ I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums.
Necrologic	Posted - 2006.01.01 00:24:00 - [22] Edited by: Necrologic on 01/01/2006 00:25:10 Here are the two previous major Nos threads/flame fests. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=215223 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=264100 Official Nos Troll
Dust Angel	Posted - 2006.01.01 00:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Artemnic Originally by: Laythun well tbh, a med nosx2 shouldnt have killed his cap so quickly. i fly vengences all the time and even with an mwd the cap holds out. he most probably underestimaed you and got in close too fast. vengence w/t2 ab can hit 5-600 m/s and there should have been enough time and enough cap to get to 13km. Guess you never did any pirating? soon as you warp in red flashing your prey warps away no time to check out his setup befor scramming him, oh and ab/mwd doesnt work when your cap is dry Laythun has done quite a bit of piracy.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.01.01 01:17:00 - [24] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 01/01/2006 01:18:09 Originally by: Lorth BS's can and should be able to kill frigs. What they should \nt be able to do is be able to kill people using them in groups as an effective team. Nor should they be so adapt at killing frigs as to be immune from a group of players who only have a few tacklers. Well, right now it's so easy to beat off a wolfpack its sadf. Only marginally related to nos, but I'm still of the opinion that nos need reduced effectiveness against smaller targets. (say BS size does 100 toBS, 75 to cruisers, 50 to frigs and 35-40 to inties). Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2006.01.01 01:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Maya Rkell Only marginally related to nos, but I'm still of the opinion that nos need reduced effectiveness against smaller targets. (say BS size does 100 toBS, 75 to cruisers, 50 to frigs and 35-40 to inties). I agree. H Nos/neut is an "I win button" against smaller ships. p - l - u - r
Phlaago Rexor	Posted - 2006.01.01 01:36:00 - [26] Originally by: Artemnic Originally by: Laythun well tbh, a med nosx2 shouldnt have killed his cap so quickly. i fly vengences all the time and even with an mwd the cap holds out. he most probably underestimaed you and got in close too fast. vengence w/t2 ab can hit 5-600 m/s and there should have been enough time and enough cap to get to 13km. Guess you never did any pirating? soon as you warp in red flashing your prey warps away no time to check out his setup befor scramming him, oh and ab/mwd doesnt work when your cap is dry If the pilot in that AF had used a 20km warp disruptor he or she could leisurely have proceeded to check the targets setup by carefully entering just into nos/web range to see if they were ready to use a nos. could be fooled if the target keeps off his nos button until the attacker is in tight orbit though.. :D
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2006.01.01 02:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Maya Rkell Only marginally related to nos, but I'm still of the opinion that nos need reduced effectiveness against smaller targets. (say BS size does 100 toBS, 75 to cruisers, 50 to frigs and 35-40 to inties). Your Wrath Precision Cruise Missile hits Guristas Webifier, doing 445.5 damage. That says it all really. Ravens now have extreme anti-frigate abilities at the touch of a button. Being attacked by 5+ frigates? Worry not, simply switch ammo and pop them in less than a volley each. So to be honest a nerf to Nosferatu would be nice, but things are far from being balanced.
Lygos	Posted - 2006.01.01 11:35:00 - [28] I've thought about this problem way more often than can be healthy. I like that small numbers of frigates can damage all but the best BS sized tanks, and also that a larger ship pilot has to make a choices about what size ships it can fight effectively in the fitting room. The battlefield has changed enough in the past few patches that I think things are more or less reasonable now between classes of ships. All classes of ships, even cruisers, are useful now. Once upon a time I would have suggested sig or tracking effects to affect nos, but I no longer consider that necessary. Still, nos and especially neuts are murder to all smaller vessels. While I consider it great that a neut can shut down a mwd or even hybrid/laser weapons, I tend to think that a radical approach such as requiring charges for armor repair modules, and less capacitor, would provide a little extra padding in the variables to allow some wiggle room without disrupting class balance unduly. This would have several effects. Ships could tank for a little while longer with little (not zero) cap. They could also tank a little more effectively in the short term. However, no ship could ever tank indefinitely. Perhaps it could become a choice rather than mandatory. A different category of repairers altogether. (And for the love of <insert deity> make it take as few skills as a normal armor repairer.) I disfavor this, but so long as the new reppers become the defacto standard for pvp, all should be well. Some other beneficial, yet unrelated side effects would be to make the recent hp increase more bearable, makes battles more tactical, makes supply lines and logistics more valuable, and increases pressure on CCP to lift the gate locking mechanic on aggressing ships. Charges for nos/neuts is also not the worst idea I ever heard, but I need more time to think about it. "I'm being facetious half of the time, ironic the other half, and serious for the remainder. By now, no one is ever certain which."
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.01 11:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Algey The thing is I doubt that I could have killed this frigate without draining its cap, and I had removed all of my anti frigate weapons in the hope of meeting the other pirate in his cruiser. The question has to be, aren't these weapons a little too powerful against smaller ships? The frigate was toast as soon as he came close enough for the nos to work, and I didn't have a small nosferatu fitted. Also is there a defence against the nosferatu, or are they something that you have to have in a viable pvp setup? The problem is, the vengance (and amarr ships in general) have a very low nos tolerance - without cap, absolutely nothing works. Minmatar ships and caldari missile ships can keep firing regardless of their cap level, making nos less of a threat. Of course, it still prevents you from tanking when your cap has gone. As for defending yourself against it, the only way is to stay out of range. I have mentioned on a number of occasions that a "Capacitor Hardener" should be added to decrease the amount of cap taken/killed by nos/neut (to make it balanced, it only prevented against remote capacitor drain to stop ships countering the penalty for using neuts). Until then, enjoy your nos. I fit 2 on my rupture and it does a rather nice job of killing everything I've taken on with it (besides the bastards who fit stabs). ------------- Please make Minmatar overpowered, CCP
Pottsey	Posted - 2006.01.01 11:55:00 - [30] ôAlso is there a defence against the nosferatu, or are they something that you have to have in a viable pvp setup?ö There sure is a defence. Passive tank and Nos has 0 or little impact on you, depending on your setup. There are far more deadly modules then Nos. _________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you.

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