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Mark19960
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Posted - 2005.12.31 22:12:00 -
[1]
ok, this has happened to me a few times now.. (in .5 and up space)
It goes like this:
2 or more players, one in a shuttle or small fast ship
player one approaches lonely miner or mining group in his fast ship
and opens the jetcan he is filling during his mining operation
he removes some or all ore and places into his can, now becoming flagged.
This person then hits their mwd and gets some distance or warps out
player 2 comes along and takes the can from player 1s can and places it into a second can
player 2 is usually in a battleship or some other heavy ship, and tends to be much slower.
now player 1 and player 2 may not nessesarily be in the same corp, every time i have seen this tactic the thieves are not in the same corp.
the issue here is now the guy in the shuttle is flagged and the guy in the battleship is not.
if you make the mistake, and they are banking on it... and take the ore back, your dead meat.
I have seen this happen and have had it happen to me.
note they never pop your jetcan.. as in they never fully empty it. they usually leave 1 unit of ore or something like that.
its done very fast and tends to be well organised.
if this does not solicit a response from you, like in my case the guy in the battleship
will come take the remaining ore from your can, so now you have 2 flagged players around you... and if you still dont bite they target you..
last but not least, and its happened once to me, one player thats flagged will fire a snowball at you, in an attempt to really provoke an attack. (oh yes they are using these in this game as bait)
now, it gets even more interesting here...
if you DO attack, and say.. toss out in your corp channel that your currently being thieved and your corp members from to your aid, once they engage the thieves usually another 3-4 pop out of the woodwork and go after your miner(s)/hauler(s)
I have seen several full out battles in paye just today over some people using these tactics. its getting out of hand and i think this whole flagging buisness is flawed.
it has done nothing but give the pirate an upper hand and a means to extort miners.
anyone care to comment on this? since the flagging its only gotten worse.
the introduction of snowballs has totally sent it over the edge.
you need to be a REALLY cool customer.
thing is, once you fire on the guy that stole your ore... its just all downhill.
thieves should have some kind of punishment dealt them, but when its multiple thieves operating in a group there is hardly anything you can do.
ideas on defending against groups of thieves?
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Ellandrian D'Amerathe
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Posted - 2005.12.31 22:20:00 -
[2]
Mine in to secure cans so they can not bait you in the first place?
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Arcsine
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Posted - 2005.12.31 22:21:00 -
[3]
Sounds to me you need to learn how to secure your ore.
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Vixa Ambrodel
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Posted - 2005.12.31 22:21:00 -
[4]
That tactic has been mentioned in.... oh, say, 50 other threads since RMR came out? And a few more BEFORE release?
We know how this works. The fact that people still get killed by it, is in most cases called griefing. In a large part it is also stupidity. And in all of them, a complete lack of intelligence, from either part...
Can flagging was introduced to give miners a way to hit orethives. That some people take advantage of it, is only for the first few months, then it wears off...
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2005.12.31 22:28:00 -
[5]
That actually sounds like someone thought you were macro mining and was performing an operation to kill you
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Mark19961
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Posted - 2005.12.31 22:54:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: ToxicFire
That actually sounds like someone thought you were macro mining and was performing an operation to kill you
That is what I thought as well.
as far as it 'wearing off' I can see no end in sight. its actually getting worse, fast.
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ZYMOTICAL
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Posted - 2005.12.31 22:57:00 -
[7]
The only thing this has to do with flagging is that you can't take your ore back from their can without being flagged yourself. Either mine into secure cans or bring enough firepower to chase them away.
Third option is to simply relocate the mining operation.
Don't blame the flagging system because you were dumb enough to attack someone for stealing ore from you and then you got ganked. Best choice usually is to write off the ore as lost and move to a new area.
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Sleazy P
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Posted - 2005.12.31 23:54:00 -
[8]
Use secure cans. They secure your ore plus they actually let you carry more ore.
Mammoth with 4 decent expanders 21% approx will get you over 15000 cargo space. That will fit 5 huge secure cans that each have a capacity of 3900. This gives you 19500 m3 of ore space.
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Huroken
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Posted - 2005.12.31 23:57:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ellandrian D'Amerathe
Mine in to secure cans so they can not bait you in the first place?
Too small, perhaps its time for some bigger Secure Containers, Some new sizes up to what an Iteron V with full set of Locals can carry.
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Macro Slasher
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Posted - 2006.01.01 00:12:00 -
[10]
Too small? Just put more of them in row.
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Drakus Felborne
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Posted - 2006.01.01 01:22:00 -
[11]
I've tried mining to secure cans, which is what drove me to get multiple accounts. Secure cans can't even be ejected within 5000m of ANYTHING, and relocating cans everytime the belt diminishes takes more time than mining, since the belts in .5 and up are rather thin to begin with, and a minefield of other cans. |
Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2006.01.01 02:05:00 -
[12]
Solution (which I have suggested before, even before RMR, as I saw this coming.....)
When a player is flagged for stealing ore, ALL cans he owns are now treated as being "owned" by the person he stole from, including cans he created before he stole ore, AND can he created after. The cans are treated as being owned by the victim for the duration of the flag.
The above makes it impossible to cause a miner to flag himself, no matter how many times the ore switches hands (unless the miner waits until the flag expires, but only macro users are likely to do that....).
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Daac Iomen
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Posted - 2006.01.01 02:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Daac Iomen on 01/01/2006 02:09:14
Can Flagging has done nothing to STOP ore theives, nor was it intended. It just gives you, as a miner, concord clearence to hunt down your theif.
No where did anyone say can flagging will stop ore theives altogether, it only gives you a chance to attack unprepared ones and get your ore back. All it's stopped is the random indy strolling through a newb belt and taking every can it sees.
Consider what it has done though...now a theif has to utilize multiple accounts, or coordinate with friends, take more time and effort to execute the grab, and be prepared to defend themselves (and lose expensive ships) if someone brings the fight to them. On top of all this, they probably won't be able to hold nearly as much ore in combat ships as they did in their indies.
Can flagging has hurt ore theives plenty, but it's certainly not true "protection" for miners that so many think it is...it's just another option for a miner to follow if they so decide.
(if you wanted an easy solution, then the can wouldn't be tagged, the objects stolen would be. So for 15 minutes, you can either blow up the theif and take his stuff and yours back, or walk up to ANYONES "bait can" and take just your stuff back without any consequence.)
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Serpensis
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Posted - 2006.01.01 02:19:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Serpensis on 01/01/2006 02:19:48
Originally by: Mark19960
ideas on defending against groups of thieves?
Yes. Join a corp if you havent. 2-3 barges sitting in a belt with a hauler jumping in and out, and all barges in an NPC corp is going to draw attention. Macrohunters chase these miners first.
Joining a corp enables you to have a dedicated protector on-site, to deal with orethieves, as the thief will be flagged to your corp.
Problem solved. Not a problem at all really, just learn to protect your ore. Mining into a can has always been, will always be and will not be anything else than _stupid_. Flagging can be used as tactics to bring PvP into high-sec space.
--
"Fear accompanies the possibility of death,
calm sheperds its certainty." |
Slink Grinsdikild
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Posted - 2006.01.01 02:24:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mark19960
Stuff
This was said by me and many, many other players WEEKS before RMR made it to TQ. At the time nobody cared enough to rethink the can flagging system, appearantly. 
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Copine Callmeknau
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Posted - 2006.01.01 02:30:00 -
[16]
Solution.
Park next to container, start warping to a safespot. Just before you finish aligning grab the stuff from the can.
You'll get flagged, but you'll warp right away =]
-------
With five million sheep in this army
I seem to be the only one fit to command
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Jozeph Spinne
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Posted - 2006.01.01 02:30:00 -
[17]
Mark19961 & Mark19960 - if I saw those two guys in my system - mining away - with the names like that I would be tempted to believe the dude is macroing like a minx.
Did you even notice that you posted with your ALT, they both have awfully familiar names, I know.
Anyway, I think they thought you were macroing and as I mentioned above, if I sa you and your ALT around I would think that too. Just too much of a coincidence, or very nlucky name you picked pal.
Happy new years.
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subvert
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Posted - 2006.01.01 02:37:00 -
[18]
This is a case of learning to adapt. There isn't really a better solution. CCP did all they could, and to be honest ore theiving is a part of this game. That's why eve is fun, you can do anything and be anything. The only thing that could stop can swapping is make jet cans completely off limits, which defeats the original purpose of jet cans, or flag the ore and items which would be a major hit on the servers.
I thought the flagging system kind of sucked because jet cans are originally space trash, and it was only a secondary exploitive use that caused them to become ore containers.
Use secure containers! You can make more ISK if you bother to setup containers, and it's better in so many ways.
-No ore thieves
-You set them up in multiple belts and fill them with the most precious ore, can make more ISK. Jet mining you often settle for crappy ore just because you can't leave your jet can.
-Passworded cans, you can share them with your friends and work as a team.
-If you feel like going afk your ore and cans aren't going anywhere.
-If you only have a short time to play you could still do some mining and haul in your cans later.
-It's more fun!
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Tony Fats
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Posted - 2006.01.01 03:42:00 -
[19]
*sigh* once again this ghey whining.
Miners asked for this. They asked to be able to shoot ore thieves, well you have your wish, you can shoot at them. You were expecting the ore thief to just come steal in their hauler still? Since you can shoot at them, now they come in a BS, you changed the rules, they changed tactics.
Why can't you people understand?
There should NOT BE safe /AND/ efficient mining. Either you mine safely into a secure container, or you do risky and efficient jetcan mining. You can't have both.
I told you people this would happen. I told you, before RMR, that after this change, carebear miners STILL would not fire on ore thieves. If they were capable of protecting their ore, they wouldn't be in highsec to begin with.
If you are mining in highsec, you are assumed to be a helpless newbie. As a helpless newbie you must use the game mechanics to secure your property.
Either create instadock to base, insta to rock, warp back and forth, have a big cargo hold, or use secure containers in lower than .7 or have a partner with a hauler.
Thats how you protect your ore in .5 +
But I know you carebears. You'll be here tommorrow whining about the same thing. Why doesn't CCP protect my ore. Waaah waaah waah.
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Firebreak
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Posted - 2006.01.01 06:30:00 -
[20]
Before I start, let me say that I have been away from Eve and just rejoined yesterday, so I might not understand correctly. But here's my point of view:
Before the flagging, thieves would come and steal your ore and that was it, no way to hit back. You then had the choice to continue mining and risk further incidents, move your op or deploy secure cans.
Now that there is flagging, thieves come and steal your ore, but you can either attack or not attack. There's still nothing you can do about them actually taking the ore. Your options now are to continue mining and risk further incidents, move your op, deploy secure cans, OR fight them.
You see, nothing has really changed, we just have an added option to attack. Attacking has repercussions, only do so if you are confident you can win. I have no idea what these snowballs are yet, so I have no idea what effect they have. Anyway, am I way off base? If you don't have the firepower to deal with them, then don't attack. Consider the ore lost and decide how you want to move forward, just as you would before the flagging.
I'm assuming you could choose to bait the baiters by having a war fleet of your own waiting in a belt to warp in and ambush the theives. Sounds like fun to me. =)
Fire
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5, 6, 7, 8! Who do we... uhhh.. I can't think of anything that rhymes with 8! |
Cmdr Sy
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Posted - 2006.01.01 06:40:00 -
[21]
It's a textbook anti-macro tactic. 
Funny thing is, the macros are adapting, and getting them flagged is becoming trickier, stealing their ore too. If macros can adapt, so can players.
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Lord Frost
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Posted - 2006.01.01 07:03:00 -
[22]
How much ore can someone in a flipping shuttle or Frig take anyway? let them have their... woop woop.
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Shugo Kazuma
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Posted - 2006.01.01 08:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lord Frost
How much ore can someone in a flipping shuttle or Frig take anyway? let them have their... woop woop.
The shuttle can move all the ore from can A to can B and then switch to a hauler and take it all away while his BS equiped mate stands guard. It can actually make ore theft easier than before since you can take whole cans rather than just what your cargohold can contain.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.01.01 08:45:00 -
[24]
At one point I recall there being talk of flagging the stolen goods themselves. Everyone who handled them would be flagged.
I'd like to see that implemented.
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Thayel Starsong
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Posted - 2006.01.01 09:23:00 -
[25]
Ok I agree can switching sucks, but I also have to agree that jetcan mining is a stupid idea in the first place. Leaving a jetcan sitting next to you while you mine is like dangling your wallet on a piece of string at your side as you walk out of the bank. Someone is going to see it and take it from you. The ONLY defence against thieves of any sort is to not be a target in the first place. If you leave a Jetcan out you are basicly painting a target on your butt that says, "come rip me off I am a moron"
The only one to blame for your ore getting stolen is YOU! You don't want to be hit by thieves then don't mine in to a can plain and simple. There will always be people that will do anything they can to exploit and take advantage of things.. its human nature. You may not be one of them but you are both dumb and blind if you don't understand that other people are.
There are several ways to mine safetly, many have already been mentioned. If you are alone you are going to collect ore slow. Deal with it! I do. I am not in a corp nor do I want to be anytime soon. When I mine I fill my hold and warp back to station and drop off... or I use Secure cans if I am mining where my hauler is. ( I am too lazy to move my hauler from system to system.. its too damn slow) I may nat make millions of ISK a day mining, but I know my ore is safe and I don't freak out when someone comes in to the belt thinking, "oh no big bad thief come to steal my ore because I left it floating in space like a fool!"
Bottom line.... people asked for a way to attack ore thieves in Empire... you got it. As the saying goes... be careful what you ask for you just might get it.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2006.01.01 09:37:00 -
[26]
the original poster and his alt are macro miners - i guess they lost a few ships learnt to speak english and are now whining - well mr macro miner alt solution is quite simple use a sec can or have a hauler next to youre jetcan and dont use macros as they cant determine who owns the can (though a human player would check and also get the warning screen)
Im a happy little camper now - CCP 4tw. |
MellaRinn
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Posted - 2006.01.01 09:45:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ellandrian D'Amerathe
Mine in to secure cans so they can not bait you in the first place?
Sorry for the rant, but have you ever even mined in EVE? Are you using Imicus frigate and basic miner? I can fill a secure can in about 8 minutes and I'm sure there are people who can fill it faster. not a possibility if you want to mine for anything else than nice yellow beams' graphics...
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Serpensis
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Posted - 2006.01.01 10:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: sonofollo
...learnt to speak english and are now whining
You give them far too much credit, its probably the sweatshop owner who wrote this :D
--
"Fear accompanies the possibility of death,
calm sheperds its certainty." |
Ashwa
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Posted - 2006.01.01 10:35:00 -
[29]
Hmm, correct me if im wrong, but when someone steals from you, they get flagged. Then you AND all of your gang or whoever you invite to gang after the incident gets kill rights for the thief? If someone attacks him he gets killrights on the group, but noone else in his group or whatever. so that basically means hes alone agains all the miners friends. noone can help the thief unless someone shoots on the other guys too.
so the point here is that eve is about playerinteraction and cooperation. if your bugged by thiefs hire escorts. i bet my milkmoney that there are ALOT of people who would like some chance to catch thiefs. and the shuttle thief can only move what? 10m3 a time? so i guess it will take some time to empty anything at all.
This interaction wasnt possible before the patch but it now is and i think its great, so stop complaining about thiefs and hire some muscle
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Dwight Hammerhead
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Posted - 2006.01.01 11:33:00 -
[30]
Why dont u mine with friends that can guard u? It's not like u are goin to zap an ore thief with your strip miners.. Besides even if u dont have anyone to mine with (in which case u may have gone into the wrong corp too..) this lame tactic can only work once. Instead of whining put a bounty on the ppl who pwned u the fist time CCP wont wipe your mining backsides everytime smth that lame happens. Get the help of profesionals:)
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