| Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
24
   |
Posted - 2013.08.23 23:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok earlier I posted the proper fix to making the market more of a level playing field, ie giving players the ability to have auto adjusting orders.
That idea has a drawback, though, requiring a lot of additional programming.
A simple fix that could serve until a more comprehensive change is in place would be to lengthen the order modification delay.
Currently the delay is at 3 minutes. This is way too short and the only people who like this short delay are the bot operators. There should be a rule that if you CHANGE an order, the change must stand for ONE HOUR during which time it can neither be changed again nor cancelled. This still allows you to immediately change an order you placed in case you screwed up, but once you have made a change you have to live with that change for an HOUR.
This would be, in my opinion, a very easy fix and a huge improvement over the current system.
|
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises
Ad-Astra
35
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 23:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Droidster wrote:Ok earlier I posted the proper fix to making the market more of a level playing field, ie giving players the ability to have auto adjusting orders. That idea has a drawback, though, requiring a lot of additional programming. A simple fix that could serve until a more comprehensive change is in place would be to lengthen the order modification delay. Currently the delay is at 3 minutes. This is way too short and the only people who like this short delay are the bot operators. There should be a rule that if you CHANGE an order, the change must stand for ONE HOUR during which time it can neither be changed again nor cancelled. This still allows you to immediately change an order you placed in case you screwed up, but once you have made a change you have to live with that change for an HOUR. This would be, in my opinion, a very easy fix and a huge improvement over the current system.
Actually the delay is 5 minutes, it's a minor quibble but details are important.
I also think that the ability for market orders to play the .1 isk game is important, it allows the market to respond organically and having things only be modifiable ever hour would be bad for the Eve economy for several reasons:
- It encourages the posting of small volumes of items repeatedly rather than posting everything and then modifying it.
- If the above isn't possible then trading in large volumes of anything becomes impossible -OR- people, and especially people using bots, would just turn to using multiple accounts posting stuff slightly out of sync with each other.
- It could be abused by pulling orders down and re-listing them and if that's not possible then it's a major inconvenience if you ever make a mistake with an order (and it will happen, either you posted your sell 1 zero too high or one of a dozen other things, never mind the immediately disastrous ones like posting a buy one digit too high.
- The market would either become very very slow to respond or would start shifting wildly since people can no longer dynamically adjust prices they would have to guess where the price is going, which leads to prices fluctuating wildly up and down or not moving at all as everyone posts for the current price figuring it'll stay steady.
Plus market bots aren't much of an actual issue, as is mentioned in the Market Discussions FAQ if you're sitting there modifying your orders all day then there's a good chance someone else is too.
What this seems like to me is a suggestion to benefit lazy market traders who feel they should be able to post an order and walk away for a few days and come back to a wad of ISK. |
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 23:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
A FEW DAYS ??? I said one hour. Read the post.
Obviously you are not a trader. If you think we like sitting around adjusting orders for hours on end you are nuts. The currently delay is way too short. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises
Ad-Astra
35
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 01:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Droidster wrote:A FEW DAYS ??? I said one hour. Read the post.
Obviously you are not a trader. If you think we like sitting around adjusting orders for hours on end you are nuts. The currently delay is way too short.
Nope, I'm not, but I know a fair number of traders who honestly do enjoy playing market games. Either they find it calming, or they enjoy the psychological warfare element of it, or they just enjoy making tons of ISK.
If you don't enjoy playing market games then you might be better off finding something you enjoy more or at least getting into a market with less price flux rather than making posts here trying to get your set of mechanics into the game. That's pretty much screaming into the void. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
349
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 05:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Recent expose on Eve Uni shows how rife and how accepted market bots are, when every Eve Uni director claimed that what the cheater was doing wasn't illegal, despite CCP always saying it was. Trying to pretend market bots aren't a major part of the 0.01 isk war is a joke. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises
Ad-Astra
36
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 06:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Recent expose on Eve Uni shows how rife and how accepted market bots are, when every Eve Uni director claimed that what the cheater was doing wasn't illegal, despite CCP always saying it was. Trying to pretend market bots aren't a major part of the 0.01 isk war is a joke.
So, I assume you're referring to this bit from way back in February. If you actually read through it Kelduum never claimed that what he was doing was legal, he simply stated his understanding of the situation and his displeasure with CCP's handling of it. I was in Eve Uni at the time and had the chance to talk with Kelduum and some of the directors and can confirm that the story is actually reported fairly accurately there (if you're getting your info from a certain blogger who got kicked from the Uni then you should find other news sources).
The other problem with your argument is that someone got banned and therefore bots are prevalent... except that they banned this guy, which means they can detect and ban market bots, which kind of undermines the whole "bots are everywhere" bit.
Second, I've already shown how the OP's idea could be better exploited by a bot setup than by an actual player through the use of multiple accounts, repeat small order, ect.
I also stand by my conclusion that increasing the edit time to an hour would not have a beneficial effect on the Eve Economy. The 5 minute order timer allows people to adjust and respond to each other without causing wild speculation or making fluctuations in the market impossible. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 07:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
The way to defeat market bots is joining them?
Sorry, we don't want more bots. We don't want your bot programs programed into EVE. Go away. |
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
146
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 08:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Droidster wrote:A FEW DAYS ??? I said one hour. Read the post.
Obviously you are not a trader. If you think we like sitting around adjusting orders for hours on end you are nuts. The currently delay is way too short.
Funny how you state that he's not a trader, while he actually corrected you on the 5-minute modification delay ((yes, I did read the post he actually isn't a trader)).
That being said, I rarely notice any problems with market-bots (I'm not stationed in Jita though). And some people actually are sitting around adjusting orders for hours on end. In fact, that's what we used to do in my alt's corporation (mining corp) when we had a wardec (which actually happened quite a lot since it was a rather new corp that was very fragile).
Thumbs up for thinking about improvements of the game though, but to be honest I think this is less of a problem than you think it is. Perhaps you can open a petition next time you think an order is being adjusted by a bot (give all the known information about the order like item, buy/sell, time left, amount etc. Triggering the order to find out the name behind the order is optional, but probably not required). This way CCP will take care of it in case it actually is a bot.
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3496
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 09:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm no market guru, but how will automating the system for everybody make the situation better? You'd be going from an arbitrary number of people botting to basically everyone.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Icarus fall
research U
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 09:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Droidster wrote:A FEW DAYS ??? I said one hour. Read the post.
Obviously you are not a trader. If you think we like sitting around adjusting orders for hours on end you are nuts. The currently delay is way too short.
I don't sell things often but when I do
I play the 0.01 isk game till my items are sold. |
|
|
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 10:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:I'm no market guru, but how will automating the system for everybody make the situation better? You'd be going from an arbitrary number of people botting to basically everyone.
Doing what I suggest will simply end the whole order adjustment process because the system will do it automatically instead of forcing players to do it.
Allowing order parameters as I suggest will each player enter in the range of their desired sell/buy prices and quantities once, instead of over and over again the way it is now. This will be a relief to the players, eliminate the need for botting and will take load off the system. Its a win-win for everybody. Non-traders will benefit because price spreads will be narrower (ie the average person will generally get better prices).
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
217
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 11:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
I don't actively trade on Eve, but I have been an active trader in real financial markets, and I have written a great deal of software to enable automatic trading in real financial markets.
Automated trading demonstrably increases liquidity in markets, bringing the buy and sell prices closer together.
This is actually positive for all 'normal' market participants, i.e. people who just want to buy and sell the occasional thing, since it reduces the 'friction' between the buyer and seller - both gain.
It does mean of course that professional participants (market makers and speculators) must up their game because if their systems are inadequate they lose trade and margins to more agile and better equipped competitors.
The most liquid and fair markets in the world are actually the FX (foreign exchange) markets, which are completely unregulated (or have been up until very recently).
The scandals and scams actually occur in the very heavily regulated markets like stock and derivatives markets. It seems to be because the presence of regulation makes uneducated participants feel unreasonably safe.
In short, based on empirical evidence of real markets, I propose that allowing and encouraging an API for trading bots, and removing the rules is actually more likely to improve fairness and utility in Eve's markets than to damage it.
A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors.
An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another.
Please learn the difference. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3497
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 11:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Droidster wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:I'm no market guru, but how will automating the system for everybody make the situation better? You'd be going from an arbitrary number of people botting to basically everyone. Doing what I suggest will simply end the whole order adjustment process because the system will do it automatically instead of forcing players to do it. Allowing order parameters as I suggest will each player enter in the range of their desired sell/buy prices and quantities once, instead of over and over again the way it is now. This will be a relief to the players, eliminate the need for botting and will take load off the system. Its a win-win for everybody. Non-traders will benefit because price spreads will be narrower (ie the average person will generally get better prices).
Automating the process will do exactly nothing to take load off the system. Quite the opposite actually.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
146
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 11:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Automating the process will do exactly nothing to take load off the system. Quite the opposite actually.
I doubt that since the modification time will be increased to 1 hour instead of 5 minutes. I for one re-check the market price about 2-3 times on average when I notice I made a mistake or when I noticed someone's order is above mine within the 5-minute modification timer which I won't have to do anymore in that case. In fact I would rarely have to re-check it since it would be automated anyway...
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3499
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 13:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Grauth Thorner wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
Automating the process will do exactly nothing to take load off the system. Quite the opposite actually.
I doubt that since the modification time will be increased to 1 hour instead of 5 minutes. I for one re-check the market price about 2-3 times on average when I notice I made a mistake or when I noticed someone's order is above mine within the 5-minute modification timer which I won't have to do anymore in that case. In fact I would rarely have to re-check it since it would be automated anyway...
That brings me back to my original point. Why should CCP automate the game for you? Reporting bots is pretty effective.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 13:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
Automating the process will do exactly nothing to take load off the system. Quite the opposite actually.
I doubt that since the modification time will be increased to 1 hour instead of 5 minutes. I for one re-check the market price about 2-3 times on average when I notice I made a mistake or when I noticed someone's order is above mine within the 5-minute modification timer which I won't have to do anymore in that case. In fact I would rarely have to re-check it since it would be automated anyway... That brings me back to my original point. Why should CCP automate the game for you? Reporting bots is pretty effective.
LOL if reporting bots were effective there wouldn't be any.
Market bots are not reportable anyway, CCP considers them a valid use of game mechanics. |
Psychoactive Stimulant
TinklePee
27
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 13:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
On ebay, you can set a maximum bid, rather than a static current bid. If prices need to raise, then they need to just get it out of the way rather than doing this whole .01 fiasco. Demand isn't enough to push the prices where they need to go.
Having a silent auction method of doing things would make a bit of sense.
example: someone wants to buy a plex, and they say I'll pay no more than 540m for one. but the highest someone else has set is only 535m.
So rather than having the new buy price set at 540, the silent auction would reduce the buyout price to 535 + 0.01 isk. And if someone wanted to bid it up, they'd have to set their maximum bid higher.
This would make more sense than the current instantaneous setup.
It would be identical with sell orders. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3499
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 15:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
Droidster wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
Automating the process will do exactly nothing to take load off the system. Quite the opposite actually.
I doubt that since the modification time will be increased to 1 hour instead of 5 minutes. I for one re-check the market price about 2-3 times on average when I notice I made a mistake or when I noticed someone's order is above mine within the 5-minute modification timer which I won't have to do anymore in that case. In fact I would rarely have to re-check it since it would be automated anyway... That brings me back to my original point. Why should CCP automate the game for you? Reporting bots is pretty effective. LOL if reporting bots were effective there wouldn't be any. Market bots are not reportable anyway, CCP considers them a valid use of game mechanics.
Really? EVE University disgrees with you, so does CCP.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises
Ad-Astra
37
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 21:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Droidster wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:I'm no market guru, but how will automating the system for everybody make the situation better? You'd be going from an arbitrary number of people botting to basically everyone. Doing what I suggest will simply end the whole order adjustment process because the system will do it automatically instead of forcing players to do it. Allowing order parameters as I suggest will each player enter in the range of their desired sell/buy prices and quantities once, instead of over and over again the way it is now. This will be a relief to the players, eliminate the need for botting and will take load off the system. Its a win-win for everybody. Non-traders will benefit because price spreads will be narrower (ie the average person will generally get better prices).
Except that with an automated range you end up with the same thing happening, where someone finds the minimum range someone has set and either buys up all their stuff and makes a profit with it or finds your minimum and sets their minimum... wait for it.... .01 isk below that. |
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
148
|
Posted - 2013.08.24 23:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Droidster wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Grauth Thorner wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
Automating the process will do exactly nothing to take load off the system. Quite the opposite actually.
I doubt that since the modification time will be increased to 1 hour instead of 5 minutes. I for one re-check the market price about 2-3 times on average when I notice I made a mistake or when I noticed someone's order is above mine within the 5-minute modification timer which I won't have to do anymore in that case. In fact I would rarely have to re-check it since it would be automated anyway... That brings me back to my original point. Why should CCP automate the game for you? Reporting bots is pretty effective. LOL if reporting bots were effective there wouldn't be any. Market bots are not reportable anyway, CCP considers them a valid use of game mechanics.
Changing the client in any way is against the EULA and so is botting... Have you ever even tried reporting them other than trying to find a button saying 'report market-bot'?
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |