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Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.09.03 13:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
We could regulate the blue doughnut via a limited number of treaties and get rid of the blue lists at corp & alliance level. Instead of making someone blue you will have to make a treaty with that entity. Something like this:
- Alliances: limited number of treaties, can only make treaties with other alliances. - Corps: limited number of treaties, can only make treaties with other corps. - Players: can make unlimited number of player friends.
CCP then will only have to balance the numbers of treaties that an alliance or corp can make from time to time to ensure that we have conflict and the blue doughnut is gone for good. You could also have some sort of treaty history and see who has honored or broken his treaties. |

Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Linistitul wrote:We could regulate the blue doughnut via a limited number of treaties and get rid of the blue lists at corp & alliance level. Instead of making someone blue you will have to make a treaty with that entity. Something like this:
You'd also have to remove the ability to set oranges/reds at corp/alliance levels, as nothing stops "the blob" from oranging their allies and shooting everyone not orange/red. Doing this, you'd outright kill NRDS and severly limit the ability of corps to warn their members of known gankers in their home systems. In addition, even blue'ing on an individual level would have to be limited; setting tthe 10 - or even 100 - splinter alliances that re-form after the large entities have been disbanded to blue on an individual level seems hardly an excessive effort if it only has to be done once... In the end you'd have to completely gut the UI to ensure that groups organized outside of the game have no easy way to reckognize each other inside the game. Now, that might just be me, but "let's make our UI obscure and confusing so people have no idea who they're dealing with" does not seem to be a strategy that wins you any game design awards...
That escalated quickly. I think you are stretching things too much mate, there's no need to go that far. And please, quote the relevant text:
Linistitul wrote:We could regulate the blue doughnut via a limited number of treaties and get rid of the blue lists at corp & alliance level. Instead of making someone blue you will have to make a treaty with that entity. Something like this:
- Alliances: limited number of treaties, can only make treaties with other alliances. - Corps: limited number of treaties, can only make treaties with other corps. - Players: can make unlimited number of player friends.
CCP then will only have to balance the numbers of treaties that an alliance or corp can make from time to time to ensure that we have conflict and the blue doughnut is gone for good. You could also have some sort of treaty history and see who has honored or broken his treaties.
"Players: can make unlimited number of player friends." - that means no corporations or alliances. Good luck setting 20000 players blue...
I agree with you that many should have a less enjoyable game so that a few can be happy playing NRDS politics, it mimics real life. Treaties could be a nice feature if we could solve that red/orange problem that a minority of players have. For that we could use relevant (to where you are) security status.
Ex: you're an entity that has sov space. If a third party (that means not the sov holder or blues) commits an aggressive act towards somebody in your space, his corporation/alliance will get a sec status hit towards your faction (including your blues) and while in your space it will display as criminal in your overview.
So if you're CVA and a neutral attacks somebody in your sov space, his corp/alliance will get negative sec status (until you decide to reset - people should be able to do that) and everyone from that corp/alliance will start displaying as criminals in your and your allies overviews as long as you see those criminals in your sov space or allies sov space.
No longer you will see meaningless (to 0.0) flashy hi-sec criminals, you will see only those that are relevant to your faction. Of course, the current rules for empire criminals will still be available in empire. The beauty of the relevant security status is that the mechanics are already in place. |

Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 14:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Where exactly am I "escalating" or "stretching" things? You threw at me a slippery slope argument.
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Talk about "escalating" things quickly. So far your proposed changes negatively impact: -Members of the blob that are happy being in a large alliance From where did you get that idea? They can make their alliance as big as they want.
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Anyone using positive standings to keep track of corps that are "generally cool guys". Dude, really? Really? This is where I'm stopping taking you seriously.
Barzai Mekhar wrote:And everyone not in CVA (from my impression most players in providence) is unable to recognize the threat that known criminals are in the current system? You can add the tag "Criminal for sov owner". Was that hard? |

Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.09.04 15:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yeep wrote:So you want to remove all the politics and metagaming and replacing it with a neutered, hardcoded version of NRDS? You can shot whoever you want, this part is for addressing the concerns of the NRDS minority. For us, the NBSI majority, treaties should be enough. A sketch of the idea can be seen here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3567705#post3567705 |

Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.09.04 16:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Oh sorry, I didn't realise this was in addition to your other stupid idea rather than instead of it. Oh, I see, show me on the blue doughnut where the bad people touched you. Argument from consequences much? |

Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.09.04 16:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Barzai Mekhar wrote:So... if alliances can be as big as they want... how is your suggestion supposed to break up the doughnut? If anything it is likely to cause even larger alliances, as it encourages the fusion of alliances that are currently content to blue each other. There is a skill that limits the alliance size.
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Even with your suggested change I still believe this system is prone to abuse and insufficient to enforce NRDS due to its automated nature, baiting residents into shooting neutral logis (and thus getting their entire alliances set as criminals) comes to mind. It's not that hard to educate people. And if someone is repping criminals, current rules apply. The safety mechanism could be modified to work in sov space also. |

Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.09.04 17:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Want to provide industrial goods to an alliance during a war? Sorry can't do that; Linistitul says we're not allowed to set you blue.. And finally wars will have a meaning and alliances will no longer be able to bypass them using blue hauler corps. No longer will wars hurt only the poor noobs on Jita undock, they will actually be used as a tool for denying you resources.
Yeep wrote:Secondly people will stop giving neutrals any leeway at all because they could be harmless or they could be someone Linistitul says we're not allowed to set red. I don't think that missing a red tag will make people stop shooting each other. It's your choice if you want to be NRDS or NBSI.
Yeep wrote:See that large gang moving through our space trying to find a fight? Sorry we'd love to set them red but Linistitul says we can't until they actually manage to shoot somebody. Again, why do you need to set them red if you want to shoot them? You just shoot them, it's your space. They are not shooting back? Cool then, easy kills. |

Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.09.04 17:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Have 5 neutral logis on field, use only 4. Someone screws up, shoots the 5th logi, suddenly 10% of all "good citizens" of the region become flashing red criminals. While the ensuing chaos might be quite hilarious for observers, I believe the people directly concernd might be slightly disgruntled. Sorry, 4 logis are in your fleet? Or in enemy fleet. Or there are 5 random logis? Did they set safety off? Though luck then.
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Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.09.04 17:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Lucky no one seems to be listening to Linistitul then Humm, the ad hominem argument.
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Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.09.04 18:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Linistitul wrote: I don't think that missing a red tag will make people stop shooting each other. It's your choice if you want to be NRDS or NBSI.
No its not. Under your proposed system your choices are Not Blue Shoot It or Not Conforming To Some Specific Gameplay Mechanic Don't Shoot. You can't be NRDS because you can't set individuals or corporations red as an alliance. Standings are a purely social mechinc. Trying to force them to conform to some stupid gameplay rules does nothing but remove depth from the game and is a terrible idea. You got it wrong. All the rules are there to ensure that NRDS is not hurt. You will tell me that you got it right and soon you will start arguing that black is white. |

Linistitul
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Linistitul wrote:Barzai Mekhar wrote:Have 5 neutral logis on field, use only 4. Someone screws up, shoots the 5th logi, suddenly 10% of all "good citizens" of the region become flashing red criminals. While the ensuing chaos might be quite hilarious for observers, I believe the people directly concernd might be slightly disgruntled. Sorry, 4 logis are in your fleet? Or in enemy fleet. Or there are 5 random logis? Did they set safety off? Though luck then. The agressor brings 5 logis which are in currently neutral corps (or let's just say X logis, I have no idea how many logis typically are involved in fleet engagements), but utilizes only X-1. Those X-1 logis influence the combat, do not provide criminal sov tags when attacked (as they support criminals) and are too important to be ignored. The Xth logi acts as "innocent bystander"/bait, in order to draw fire from the residents so that their alliance receives a criminal sov tag. Residents and allies can shoot whoever they want in their or allies space. No need for criminal tag to shoot them. It's 0.0 space. |
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