It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP.
I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there.

I understand the the change from 30% resistance bonus in Bastion Mode to having T2 resists to try to appeal to the PVP/PVE crowd who want the remote reps.

What I DO NOT understand is why you are trying to take away the basis of what these ships have been in the local rep bonus. You are taking a ship and adding new skills and modules to get results close to what the ship already had.

I for one did not need the target painter on my golem I surely don't need a web now.

In your effort to make this ship appealing for use in PVP don't ruin the ship for the PVE crowd who have been using the ship for years.

Role bonus: 100% Damage / T2 Resists

Battleship Bonus: 5% Damage and 10% Range (optimal / falloff / missile speed) per level
Marauder Bonus: 5% Rate of fire and 7.5% Tracking / Exp velocity

Bastion Module:
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25% (as originaly posted with all the cooldowns and restrictions)

+50% Reduction in local rep cap consumption

PvE Out of Bastion:
High resists with high dmg projection will be the ship of choice for group content like incursions, WHs and so on.
PvP Out of Bastion:
High resists and high dmg projection, utility high slots to spare. Will give the other faction battleships good competition for a spot in the fleet.

PvE using Bastion:
Suited for solo or smaller groups. The improved resist profile and the repair boost will compensate for the lack or remote reps and make it a viable choice
PvP using Bastion:
Small gang and solo pvp


This way the ship will be viable choice for both PvP and PvE with or w/o the Bastion. If you want you have fun with friends grab a marauder w/o a Bastion module and have a logi with you. If you are alone, put a bastion and have all the tank you need to overcome the nasty NPCs.

I have to say this looks just plain wrong. It looks like the red-haired stepchild of a drunken night between a RNI and a Vindicator. There's no direction with these bonuses.

Most PvEer's comments I've seen is "MJD out there and snipe those frigs"
Most Incursioners comments I've seen is "Get in there and web those frigs"

The Golem can do neither. Even with Cruise Missiles, the above bonuses, 2x Rigor IIs, 3x RBTPainters and 2x Domination Webs,.. and frigs heading straight towards me, I'm gettin' 423 DPS to 14km and 139 DBS to 45,.. from theoretically 8 Cruise Launchers.

With Torps as we all know,.. it'd be even worse!

Sure Gunnery Marauders can 1-Blap Frigs as they're barreling straight at you, a Vargur has little change in DPS between Frigs, Cruisers and BCs given the "straight at you" situation,.. which can be controlled and reset every 54-57 seconds. The Golem (in my experience) requires Light Drones to deal with frigates. Elite Frigates get pounded as EWAR happens,.. the rest are ignored until I vacuum up a mission site.

Please remove this Web Bonus on the Golem's Hull. While the Target Painting Bonus is useful against Cruisers+,.. the Web Bonus has no use on a ship that can't apply damage to frigates in the first place. A bonus to TORPEDO Velocity would be appreciated,.. because sure, applying Cruise Missile DPS ASAP is great,.. when your targetting range is only 250km,.. and your midslots are tied up with TPs and a new MJD, who has the room for a Sensor Booster.

Do as others have stated and put the web bonus in a script for the Bastion module, I really can't see how webbing frigates will benefit Large Missiles at all,..

Though if someone could point out how I COULD use Webs on frigates with Large Missiles,.. I'm all ears,..

Ah there you are wrong Mate. Amarr racial enemy, the Minmatar, deal ALL damage types. Thats why Amarr should have more of a omni tank (but still with exlpo/kin being the highest).

The problem is that while in PvP I can cover resist holes with modules - I don't care where the hole is - I will be omni tanked anyway (so the resists spread is of lesser consequence in PvP). But for PvE I am forced to cover em/thermal hole (coz Paladin being a lazor ship should fight sansha/blood what escapes some peoples attention here...) while Kronos and Golem can use those slots for damage projection mods. Thus Kronos/Golem are much more effective at PvE because they can focus on dealing dmg (faster mission speed) while in my Paladin I have to cover my resist holes first. That is HUGE disadvantage.

Also remember: with laser I can't chose my dmg types. So I'm forces to either fight rats which hit my resist holes or rats that have high resists against lasers. So its lose/lose scenario. Vargur is less affected coz it can fight all rats (can change dmg types), Golem the same, while Kronos has highest resists for rats that is't weaponry is good against.

Again for PvP I will be omni tanked anyway and will cover any large hole no matter which one is it. Just change Paladin resists profile so its better for PvE, so it can fit damage projection mods in lows instead of tank mods.

I still think the web would benefit gunboat more than a TP but i suppose it could work .

As it stands right now i get almost double the amount of DPS with my skills vs being in a marauder. I have the skills to pilot all the mara's for every race and while ive tried them all their DPS is horrid even compared to the new rebalance work done on the navy ships.

Right: this new iteration is garbage, the old one was far better, i >currently< use the vargur in pvp, adding webs to it is indeed usefull if ships come close, it is also pointless because of the range of the ship, the vargur plays out in pvp like a versatile assault ship, able to tackle any assault role fairly well, but is also slow and currently has ewar issues and due to that ends up getting picked apart solo, with the old boosts they were boosting the way i play, and have scene played, vargurs in general, cant say for other marauders because i don't fly them mind you, the tank nerf is exceptionally disapointing, as in pvp, the vargur always gets primary, its just shiny like that, and without rr or nice local tank to back you up you just fall apart, now if its the bastions tank that's annoying incursion runners just have the module not run in incursion systems, i could not care less about incursions, and i will not be using a vargur for pve

easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship

was afk getting pizza, sorry the reply is late: yes. fleet issue phoon can get 1800 dps at the same range give or take as a kronos, im going to assume a cnr can get even more, a vindi with gank fit can even get 3k, so yeah, kronos is probably the weakest marauder atm imo, due to lack of range

Why not roll the web bonus into the Sebastian module, but make it a range bonus. This way you can give a rep bonus back to the marauders, but instead of doing rep amount bonus why not provide a 7.5% nanite usage bonus for AAR's and a 6% cap booster capacity bonus to ASB's? Keeping the 100% bonus in Sebastian mode. Combined with a proper T2 resist profile you give players a reason to still use normal reps, but give them a good advantage when using charged reps.

*Just thought I should add that this would give AAR's 11 cycles and ASB's 12 cycles.

How to rebalance marauders, Wizz style ^^

Version 1

Role: specialized to work under "unsafe" conditions. Can do stuff in PvE due to damage application bonuses.

Role bonus:
100% to damage
25% damage absorbed by overheating modules
25% reduction to nanite paste consumption while repairing modules
20% bonus to modules repair speed while using nanite paste

Racial BS skill bonuses (both indirect damage application of primary weapon system)
+7.5% expl radius
+7.5% expl velocity
or
+7.5% tracking speed to respective turret type
+5% faloff and optimal

Marauders skill bonuses
+7.5% primary tanking type boost amount
+5% bonus to overheated module primary effect *
*Non-overheated AB gives for example 200m/s, overheated 250, overheated with Marauders5 200+(250-200)*(1+0.05*5) = 262.5

Fits into: survivability in hostile space. Requires a careful selection of what to overheat and when thus requires high piloting skills. t2 resist profile and repair bonus, making it imba sustainable tank, but intentionally left prone to alpha

CCP, tell me u just didn't said u have not enough imagination ^^

I don't understand the backlash against the web bonus:

a) Two of the Marauders already had it (actually a 75% more effective bonus, in terms of target velocity, than that proposed...) and it is a requirement for a good blaster boat

b) You don't need a repair bonus for PVE activities - 'low end stuff' (Missions/Complexes) are trivial with MJD and a long reach, 'high end stuff' (Incursions/Wormholes) you will be relying on remote repair, for which the T2 resist bonus is awesome.

Also

I wanted to add that the name may need to be changed as bastion would be specific to the Marauder.


One more thing to add.
The changes to TP cycle time is EPIC, however, since they're the least effective ewar out there, perhaps they should also have their optimal/falloff removed and instead be able to work at any range, as long as you can lock the target.
This sounds fair to me... Or at least give them a max range instead of optimal/falloff, and then give specific ships (like golem) a TP range bonus.

It seems to me (very confusing with 1 correction post in the middle of everything) that the Marauders are loosing their PVE specialization with less tank overall plus slow speed.

Tanking some enemies will be better and others worse, e.g. a Vargur will be tanking Blood/Sansha/Amarr better with the T2 resists, but tanking Angels/Mercenaries a lot worse from the removal of the 7.5% SB bonus pr. level plus slightly worse cap recharge. Tanking Serpentis/Guristas will also become slightly worse... Which seems strange, going from fast well tanked mission beasts, to slow bricks that tank worse against their most common PVE enemies.

But with those enemies they are now weaker against, one could ofcourse fit arties, MJD far away, deploy bastion and slowly pick them off, then MJD back to the next gate.

I don't know... It was nice being able to just fly into the face of the enemies and brawl them at all times, and being quick about transportation. This seems impossible with Bastion mode since there are no bonuses to tank, or what? Is the "100% bonus to shield or armor repair amount" removed, as with the 30% more resistance in bastion?

Why not just assemble and edit info on page 1 along the way so it's clear what the current plan is?



Besides that I'm really looking forward to seeing the animations :)

i would find if neat if the bastion module was designed to absorb heat and would thus allow you to perma overheat.

Glad I didn't buy the marauders skillbook yet, what a disappointment this revert decision is.

Bastion Kronos without the web bonus fails when fit for blaster brawling, it can't hold targets inside blaster range, and with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.

For 600-700mil hull this would be ok performance, but not at nearly billion.

You're missunderstanding the intent behind the removal of tractor bonus.

CCP announced that they are releasing a small deployable structure that can tractor wrecks and I think cans, and loot them.

So we're wanting to swap it for a salvager and/or salvage drone bonus..


However,

That's assuming the tractor structure doesn't suck, and that the Marauders can carry one.

the marauder siege range bonus is next to useless since it is stacking penalized imho it should not be and give a flat 25% that stacks

I don't really care for or against the new hull, I just hate the bastion transformation...

Seriously, WTF was the art department working on?
Is it all in game?
Cause it's pathetic.

Currently on TQ, max range with torpedos rage is 43.2 km with a CNR using :

1 x 5% hardwiring velocity or flight time, doesnt matter which
1 x T2 velocity Rig
1 x T2 flight time Rig
1 x T1 flight time or velocity Rig , doesnt matter which

As long as you don't use 2 x T2 Rigs of the same type (velociry or flight time) you won't get stack penaltized.
All velocity\flight time relevant skills maxed.

In the same sense and with 1 less T1 Range rig slot, the respective TQ max range with torpedos rage for Golem is 38.2 km

** Im unable to test so would appreciate a little feedback on this. If the bastion 25% range bonus is stack penaltized then it becomes aproximately a 21.75% bonus, applying it to the TQ Golem makes its max range with rage torpedos 46.6 km. If its not stack penaltized then its 47.8 km. In either way, PvE wise, its not a bad increase at all, taking into account the huge dps increase with rage torps (in conjuction with tp duration changes).Only a few npc battleships try to orbit you above 45km (<= 51 km).I can imagine fom now getting in L4 rooms with javeling torps at start,clear the more distant targets and then when everything is below say 46-47km switch to bastion\rage and clear the rest.That might be enough to help finish the tougher L4 missions faster.

Ofcourse im not sure if the numbers above are accurate, can anyone confirm?

Try it...

it costs 100 isk for modules on test server

I'd question your math if you found an increase from 199 (or 203) to 249 to be only 3%.

Valid statement but...

Thisis why T2 resists will be a better option because it'll benefit both in and out of Bastion. As is, the Golem gets a 0% EM resist regardless of T1 or T2 ship resists, you'll have that hole no matter what.

Painters are okay, but the ship already has an explosion velocity bonus, which still don't do jack for T2 Rage torpedoes, but you can whack frigates with CN torpedoes pretty easily with a single paint. Because paints will have a 5s delay instead of 10, and my 5s ROF, I'll only need 1 paint, and one of your rigs should be a T2 Rigor rig anyway.

Gank is tank, so replacing the 7.5% per level boost bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus would significantly increase the DPS of the Golem, and its overall damage application especially with faction missiles and launchers.

Dear CCP,

I would like to point out to some issue I found testing different setups on SiSi last night. Issue is ASB tank on Vargur and Golem. So I had a very plain fit on my golem: MJD, 2x XL ASB, 2x Invuls, Shield boost amplifier and TP, damage control, 2x bcus, co processor, t1 resist rigs and rapid heavy launchers.
I was sitting on one of the combat beacons with bastion mode turned on when 2x Paladins, Bhaalgorn and sleipnir engaged me. Despite having 0 cap thanks to Bhaalgorn I had no issues tanking them. After 10 minute fight I realized that my ship would run out of missiles faster then it would run out of Cap booster 400 for reloading ASBs. in 10 minute fight I only realoaded ONE of my ASBs ONCE. I find this odd. I understand that this is not issue of ship but broken ASB mechanics you have implemented and refuse to fix. While armor ships are still vulnerable to neuts and u cannot do anything about ASB fit battleships unless you don't poses a huge alpha to simply break through it's rep cycles. I've to admit that rep amount on shield ships is stupidly high, full shield in 1 cycle?
In other threads I already pointed out on issue of fitting oversized reps to shield tanked ships (X-L on cruiser and BC) while armor is still limited to only 1 AAR. ASB tank is much stronger on shield ships rather then on armor. For example you have to invest around 5-6 bil ISK into fit for Kronos to get almost half of ASB Vargur/Golem's tank. Why cannot you limit size of booster for individual class and limit number of ASBs fitted on ships? Shield looks a bit OP compared to armor tank just because of Shield boost amps, Active invuls that you can overheat and of course Crystal set implants. I would appreciate to actually get an answer on my question at least once, or should I simply do a mass petition so you can pay attention to this issue?
Thanks ahead.

The only time any additional DPS is gained is if a low slot were opened up, all other situations are just potential increases in applied dps, but the ship dps has not gone up. Mid slots are only going to help apply existing dps, often times the stacking penalty and redundancy (unecessary need). The range bonus is a slight increase to where you can apply dps, for some weapon systems, and even then the bonus is minor, additionally as has been pointed out numerous times, to alleviate stacking penalties means when you're not in bastion mode, you've impaired your range. Meaning much of what is being described as a bonus from bastion is actually a zero net gain.

In addition, being unable to move means you can not adjust transversal you are at the mercy of others, the times in which bastion appears to be beneficial can already be achieved without its use. Again, being able to track better, but have 0 control on transversal is not a net gain. Going to extreme ranges to counter this is not something unique to the module, as the bonus to ships fit for this already is minimal, the opening of another slot by bastion is redundant so it doesn't help the situation.

In short, if you could still move and got the range bonus from bastion, then yes you are completely right, you still can have the same transversal, and better tracking which means you can apply dps better than if you did not have the additional tracking, however, this is not how bastion works. There may be some scenario's where you're applying more dps, likely however, this had nothing to do with bastion, and had more to do with what the other ship was already going to do, regardless of the use of bastion.

Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos?

Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards.
Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec".
Every one of your actions displays what you think.

Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.

You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others.
Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.

Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.

And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.

Correct

Can't find it in this thread, was there already an explanation given why the optimal and falloff bonus is the same and not double falloff similar to tacking comps and enhancers? Are we back in 2008 where falloff is somehow supposed to be as strong as optimal?

While this sounds plausible, wrecks are generally in random directions, so you can easily have wrecks in 80km in one direction and 80km in another direction, MJD to one set of wrecks and find yourself 180km from the others.

From my point of view, if you're going to increase the effective killing range of a marauder (25% optimal 25% falloff), you might as well increase the marauder's effective role bonus along with it (50% tractor beam) ~70km tractor beams would make the bastion module very viable and give it a distinct advantage to a pirate BS without making it more powerful than a noctis which is a ship specialized to salvaging that most Pirate BS pilots utilize.

Cap booster charges, and it's hold is massive. Compare the 2 shield marauders to the 2 armour marauders.

Vargur & Golem - Capless weapons and the option of ASB's (capless tanking, improved by the capless bastion module)

Paladin & Kronos - Needs cap for weapons and tank, bastion module requires no cap but what does it matter if you can't run that bastion boosted repper.

Armour marauders are getting the shaft being very vulnerable to cap warfare whilst the other 2 are virtually immune.

The reality is that the web bonus was getting nerfed to 7.5%, so are you saying that even at 37.5% you can still live with the change? Because I suspect the answer is still no. Is it just the loss of the stasis web or is it the drone bandwidth as well? Because the other modifications (with one or two minor exceptions) are almost overwhelmingly positive on the latest iteration. And the drones were getting nerfed, regardless.

Fine. Adjust the bonuses as follows (this should make everyone happy):

Paladin: Battleship - 5% capacitor, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 7.5% optimal, 5% damage, 7.5% armor repair
Golem: Battleship - 10% missile velocity, 5% explosion velocity; Marauder - 5% rate of fire, 10% TP, 7.5% shield boost
Kronos: Battleship - 5% damage, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 10% falloff, 7.5% tracking, 7.5% armor repair
Vargur: Battleship - 5% rate of fire, 10% falloff; Marauder - 7.5% tracking, 5% optimal, 7.5% shield boost

I'm not lying, and I haven't tested it (full disclosure). But since I run an insane amount of L4s, I can tell you flat out that the RNI I use will easily outperform the Golem - and it's not just because of the DPS from the two extra Sentry drones. With three rigors and the explosion radius bonus on the RNI I'm hitting for under 100m - which means I'm doing almost full damage to cruisers without the need for target painters. Also, because the RNI sports 8 launchers I take less of a DPS loss from NPC defender missiles. Not only that, but I can pre-load a wider assortment of ammo because I have twice the launchers.

Sure, the Golem will definitely out tank a RNI - to be certain. But since my effective combat range is 100km and I tank most of the damage with an orbit/afterburner, I don't really need much. The Golem is stationary, so if it has to activate its tank there's a good chance it needs all of it and more. The Golem will also out-salvage my RNI, but again - I'm not using my RNI for salvage.

I could also point out that for the price and training required to run a Golem, I could run two nicely fit Ravens with a RHML setup that would literally run circles around the Golem in an L4. Golems have less passive tank, so it also makes them a more expensive gank target. I know you don't care, I don't really care for the Golem (the third iteration is definitely the best of the mix, but still falls short of what it could've potentially been) - but since you took the time to reply I did the same.

Don't like it (Golem), won't use it (Golem). Plus I hate the color.


^^ This guy gets it.


^^ Also gets it. And the Nightmare isn't even a Machariel or Vindicator, either. This isn't to say Marauders suck. Maybe they're well-suited for a different aspect of gameplay (such as L5s). But L4s, Marauders are the low hanging fruit.


Well, I can run a Raven for 1/8th the cost of a Golem and a fraction of the SP requirements. That's a lot of free ammo. Sure, Marauders can salvage - but they're dreadfully slow at getting around - and nothing outperforms a Noctis. Again, not saying Marauders suck - just not for me (and I suspect a lot of players).

I'll probably still stick to Golem noctis combo.
Clear a few missions, the. Come back and salvage.
Noctis is much faster, even after you factor leaving and returning.

I run 4 tractor, 4 salvage... I can lock 10 targets, so I tractor 4 while I'm salvaging 4.

1 false, mobility is reduced, esp during close range combat and bastion mode. Yeah yeah, frees a slot. What should the vargur use in the additional mid? If TC tracking is already fantastic, falloff and bastion falloff start to conflict at that point. Dual prop is pointless for most missions. More or less, use bastion w/o falloff bonus and mobility or don't use it and don't get the extra slot. This is one of the reasons I think drones would be a nice addition.

2 irrelevant concerning small drones. Also, Vargur can usually down a frig with less than a full AC volley. If taking the penalties CCP wants to give it, it needs a bit of a dmg buff. Mach gets x2 drone bandwidth, about 9.5% more turret dps, and better mobility. Maelstrom gets the same turret raw dps, but has twice the bandwidth.

3 marauders are useful against high ewar and high dmg that doesn't require logi. Also, mjd and long range focus make the tracking bonuses less useful.

4 noctis isn't a combat ship. As with point 2 the point about salvaging is irrelevant. Concerning tractors, the Vargur currently can make very good use of the tractor bonus because it usually kills things within tractor 48km tractor range. One more reason to hate the ranged role and low mobility. Honestly if you arent looting in a marauder, another ship will make you more isk/hr in 4s

Both the Raven and RNI have higher dmg potential, golem takes double penalties for defenders compared to RNI, and can be subjected to higher amounts of overkill

bastio does help cruise golem by drasticaly lowering the defender missle damage drops and thats a big gain and there is that pretty handy speed gain that comes handy when sniping at 100km - less wasted ammo
so you cant say that cruise golem does not gain anything from bastion

I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.

I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.

In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:

= 1400 fits =
1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.

= AC fits =
The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.

= Suggestions =
Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:

Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).

Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)

Add additional falloff the vargur hull.

Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur

Add additional turret dps to the vargur

I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now....

Like I said, vargur is a freak of nature.

Also, it's an 800's vs cruise issue.
800's carry a ton of ammo, have a faster cycle time, don't have to swap ammo for smaller targets, have instant damage application.

With missiles

I can only carry 27 per launcher, I have to wait for the missiles to travel so I can cycle to the next target, have to swap ammo for smaller targets, and they cycle slower.

and they both have damage selection.

In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.

1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.

2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.

3. Extra tank is unnecessary.

Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.

4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.

So I have 3 suggestions.

1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.

2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.

3. Give some or all of the speed back.

You sound like one of the guys who can't use the vargur or 1400s T2 on TQ at all. 1400 work not better in bastion then out of it. Tornado will probably stay the best ship for artillery in rubicon if you want to stay mobile and Maelstrom will be the best ship for artillery with a decent buffer tank in rubicon. You will not see Arty Vargurs. If you do it is for brain afk lvl pve-ers.

1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.

25% still wont help torps to beat that 50km mark you need a 30/30% buff to get over it

1. Its not debatable, its just wrong. Remove tracking bonuses from all marauders and force them to use Target Painters by wasting med slots, or delete target painter bonus on Golem to place this ship in line with others.

2. Golem got cap intensive shield tank which uses.. med slots, and if u equip MJD, cap injector/recharge and TP in very same med slots, u got only 4 slots left for tanking mods. Compare this to other marauders who can use their ship bonuses and have 7 slots tank in same time.

3. Kronos, Paladin and Vargur got additional damage bonus (5% to damage or 5% to rof) while Golem is the only one who doesnt got damage bonus. Argument that Golem can choose damage is false since Vargur can do it too and he got that bonus. Not to mention fact that all other marauders deals insta damage, while Golem missiles need to fly to target (target which can just warp off). Thats why Golem should be on prefered status in case of ship bonuses, not the opposite. Lets face it, Golem is the last ship in case of PVP.

4. Last but not least. Since bastion module will make them immune to tracking disruptors (in favour of 3 marauders using turrets), will bastion module make Golem immune from defender missiles too? How many times people need to ask this question for u to answer

Eh? At that range they have their pseudo-MWDs on and are suffering from huge sig bloom.


And what Angel missions are actually close range missions? It seems like there's always one spawn that's waaaay out there. And since Javelins can't compare to Fury Cruise, there's not much point in using torps on a Golem anymore.



Quite the opposite. In terms of level 4s, Bastion means you can mount a one slot tank (Pithum C-Type MSB,) 4-5 TPs, and a prop mod or two. You'll have a ~400+ perma-ish tank against most enemies in Bastion. For, Sansha/BR or Mercs, fit an Invul II.

Slap on some speed rigs and those cruise missiles can go up 18km/s (no more volley counting.) 4-5TPs will make up for not having Rigors. Or mount Rigors, b/c even at 13km/s volley counting isn't a problem.

Rubicon Marauders are now insanely easy mode for level 4s due to the Bastion module. A scorch Paladin can effectively perma-run a MARII (with 2xEANMIIs for tank) and 4 Pulses with Scorch with 95km optimal. A Cruise Golem is probably the laziest thing to fly (or would be if you could group TPs.) A Vargur can mount 4 Gyros, a DCU, 3x TCs, MJD, MWD and Pithum C MSB for 74km of falloff (however, it's the only one that actually needs the MJD to minimize DPS loss to falloff) and ~480 perma-ish tank against Angels.


And as for the deployable tractor, there's a 45 second activation delay. And I'm willing to bet they just tractor the nearest thing, i.e. firgates, instead of cherry-picking the more valuable, larger ship wrecks.




Seriously, can we quit whining about Rubicon Marauders in level 4s? The only people who have valid complaints are those can afford losing a billion isk hull in PvP, and those who need the webs for Incursions, WHs, and similar.

Or just tank it.

A golem can and will tank most small cruiser gangs and the new heavy rapids sting. If they had the bonus I feel the golem would have too easy a time ripping these small gangs apart if they hang around.

clearly you have no clue of missile mechanics i strongly advise you to read and understand the link i posted few pages ago...

you only compare explosion velocity and velocity....but the damage modifiyer is dependent on 4 values

ship veloocity
ship signature
missile explosion velocity
missile explosion radius

you neglect 2 of the 4 ...and to those are applied :

mwd 500% malus
bonused target painters
and probably rigor rigs

so there it will be the other way arround leading to a not so big advantage on side of the cruiser (those 4 values are calculated into one a*b/(c*d)^c )

i never said it would not (but you although i seriously doubt your given numbers from your sisi cause it would strongly deviate from TQ)

to my point you tried to make a point with a totally wrong example 150m/s / 2000 m/s would not be the factor of dmg reduction actually the factor would be way bigger thus you tried to make your point with false data so either you have no clue or are dishonest in your arguments.

Was brought up some 170 pages ago or so.

CCP is concerned with overpowered pulse laser fits, that's why the optimal bonus is above a meta 14 officer TC, yet falloff is below tech 2.

It seems fairly clear that the speed reductions all but limits the Marauders to a long-range role. To make them slightly more useful in short-range rolls, I would suggest the following:

GÇó Increase the base speed of the Kronos to 115 m/sec (-5) and the Vargur to 120 m/sec (-10).
GÇó Replace the Golem's Marauder TP bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus (in-line with the T1 Raven bonuses)
GÇó Replace the Vargur's Marauder tracking bonus with a 5% damage bonus (in-line with the T1 Tempest bonuses).

If Marauders are all about projection and not damage application, why is the Paladin the only one that doesn't have an application bonus?

Kronos: Tracking
Vargur: Tracking
Golem: Target Painter

Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair".

Please. The velocity bonus gain on the Golem is equivalent to an extra T1 hydraulic rig that any T1 or Faction hull can run. Without having to remain stationary.

I like the idea of Bastion mode but with the change that you are doing means that we (golem users) have even less mid slots available to us ( painters, MJD, Tank) and if i understood correctly we should be able to make even stronger tank with Bastion mode but as far as i did test the setups on that was not the case exactly While getting the bonuses from Bastion mode did not make up enough impact for me to call it success. (we are immobile huge chunk of metal)

Now the bigger issue i think is that everybody compares Marauders against Pirate BS (and i truly hope big nerf on pirate BS) but when i compare my current Golem versus my CNR i get about same tank with both same DPS with both but CNR can deal with missions/sites 50% faster than Golem so somehing is wrong (and i know i overtank my CNR but i like it) (and i use torpedos on golem) (and my skills are maxed)

Golem should be able to deal sites/missions atleast same speed as CNR and 1 way to do it is with removing the need of TP's (maybe giving each marauder a internal self build TP or tracking enhancer or similiar) and increasing damage bonus and/or explosion velocity/radius (Torpedos need buff on golem)

Ofcourse for PVP cant say anything since i dont like it anymore (Yes i am carebear and i love it) for PVP balance you have to ask somebody elses opinion

Just on a sidenote : The new deployable "Mobile Depot" structure

If they can be deployed very fast, wont that mean that it will make our Marauders a lot more flexible? We have very large cargo holds to start, so we can carry full refits, we are going to anchor next to it anyway, meaning we can switch from say Cruise to RHML's to clean up, etc etc

I mean, I can see myself putting a bunch of tractors and salvagers in the hold, together with a deployable tractor module, put that out right away to start pulling, then when everything is dead refit to "full Noctis" to do a fast cleanup.

If that Depot also allows to refit Drones, I mean, we can carry a TON of spare drones as well.

Am I missing something? Cause it sounds pretty cool.

You know, that is an interesting PvE concept.
I am pretty certain someone will do it.

But of course, the Paladin is still a doomed ship without its web bonus.
Unless of course, you don't mind losing several million in small drones every mission. (I won't even bother discussing how the ship is done in VG incursions. That discussion has been put to bed)

I tried a very similar fit on Sisi and a Blaster fit Kronos since I have almost max skills for both, and... it was highly dissapointing with the golem to say the least.

On serpentis battlecruisers for instance it takes approximately x5 more time to kill them with two target painters. (I had only two TPs though. Aren't they stacking penalized ?)

3-5 shots when they DONT burn at high speeds you mean? Because their MWD is advantageous for player - it blows their sig by a factor of 5 while only doubling their speed (spider drones are an exception, as well as sleepers and incursion Sansha).

The MWD isn't always on. NPCs will "coast" in at high speed with the MWDs off in order to decelerate into their predefined orbit range. It's during this coasting period that you'll experience damage degradation.

/note_to_self: Wander over to F&I and recommend that NPCs use ABs.

We're not whining, nor arguing. We're debating.

Like true internet mentlegen.


*smokes pipe*

Guristas.

M1k3y Koontz is the kind of person who is clueless about eve - missiles are childs play. Totally clueless.

Yes - was seething at one point about the Vargur, now just sad resignation. I lose a PVE ship and gain a wholly bizarre PVP ship. One that will sit and wait to die.

Humph.

Let me point you to:

Vargur was the marauder that lost MOST speed.

Vargur was the marauder that reduced the LEAST its signature radius.

Vargur is the marauder that gained LEAST range from bastion.

Vargur is the Maraurder that has highest difficulties on fighting at 100 km ( MJD).

Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.

It's now a totally inferior Maradeur it lost a lot of it's speed in mvd/ab setups, gained a useless bonus for an mjd and gains the least from bastion bonuses compared to other ships. It's also less cap-stable now

You made a funny. I like you.

---

Honestly, this ship is garbage. Get a T1 BS with a salvager, drop a mobile tractor beam and go to town with the same effect. Maybe even just run a noctis, that ship that made the marauder useless to begin with.

I still think the best option was to get rid of the tractorbeam + salvager bonuses. Replace it with more combat suited bonuses of some kind and let it out into open-world with the bastion mod still. If it had more of a combat role vs a NPC-fighting setup it would be used in PVP more often.

Not so sure about this.
The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's.
And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed.

The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion.

The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.

Well loosing the web-bonus is bad, but still they outperform Vargur in other aspects completely.

Nerfing the Maradeurs? - they are still worse than pirate ships and even some navy ships. Also they are the only t2 combat ship not seen/not needed in pvp, so yeah, lets nerf them!