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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 30 post(s) |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3305
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Posted - 2013.08.30 04:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is a very nice idea and I love that you came up with new stuff!
The only threat to the blink -> bastion idea is on-grid probing. Without that, you could hope deal with approaching tackle with your amazing dps projection, but when it warps at 0 on you, you are hosed.
However, the tank in bastion means the opposing gang needs really serious numbers to break you.
Of course, a small gang of marauders will tear tackle off each others, as they are completely free from formation, being independent operators. Picture held by a slaved, dual plate Proteus which is surrounded by 6 Kronoses, 50km apart, and each one has you in Null optimal. With Talos tracking.
Moridin Mandarb wrote:Alticus C Bear wrote: To be fair it does state it makes them immune to e-war. But that's only while in Bastion mode. When not, it suffers the same problem it always has. In a PvP scenario, no one will want to use the Bastion module, due to the fact that even with the awesome resistances, they cannot hold up against 30 to 40 BSes shooting them at once, and not being able to receive remote reps.
40 battleships is not PVP, it's blobbing, and only very few players in this game cares what happens in those- it's not interesting no matter which ship you are sitting in.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3306
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Meyr wrote:What we're about to see is an absolute pestilence of griefer war decs against small industrial corps ransoming their towers in order to not have them blapped.
Unless you have your POS set up as a deathstar, and enough gunners to man all of the guns, these things are going to destroy hisec T2 production - which seems to be the ultimate goal of CCP anyway, so, in that regard, JOB WELL DONE, MORONS! I guess we can all go PVP in T1 hulls with Meta modules fitted, and maybe then 0.0 ratting will be able to pay the bills.
It's not as if you haven't given Industrialists enough grief with gankers being given Tier 3 BC's, stupidly high DPS on Catalysts, ganking out of noob corps, and Tags-for-Sec-Status - now, they'll have to either move to lowsec or 0.0 in order to keep roaming idiots with a handful of Marauders from destroying the assets that allow them to PVP in 0.0 - that is, IF they can find a place in lowsec or 0.0 that won't simply blow them up out of hand.
You really haven't thought the end effect through very well, have you? Who do you think a huge chunk of those stupid hisec carebears are, you cretins? They're 0.0 PVP'ers paying for the ships they lose, you imbeciles. Now, you make 0.0 life more difficult by forcing hisec alts into even more mission running, FW farming, and Incursion running.
Next up: An announcement from these same bass-ackwards, pants-on-head dweebs that, for one of the 2014 patches, hisec mission running, Faction Warfare, and/or Incursions will be made less profitable.
The biggest issue of EVE is the terrible players, and letting them post on the forums. Retards like you drag this game down, and renders these threads useless.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3306
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 08:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Meyr wrote:Roime wrote:
The biggest issue of EVE is the terrible players, and letting them post on the forums. Retards like you drag this game down, and renders these threads useless.
You're going to have to let history decide who is correct, but, so far, the history of the last two years bears out what I have said, and, since you haven't offered up a reasonable alternative to what I foresee, for now, I'll stick with my prediction. Griefing small hisec industrial corps by war-deccing them for a ransom on their POS (especially faction POS's) is about to become a cottage industry in Eve, if they release these ships as stated. As for being a "terrible player" that's simply your little bullshit attempt at an insult. Read. Expand your vocabulary. Connect a few more brain cells. Plan the insult. Try harder.
No, you need to try harder and put some facts behind your stupid prediction. Why would that happen?
Your post was full of stupid little insults towards CCP, and that tells a lot about your mental capacity, ******.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3307
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Posted - 2013.09.01 13:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:baltec1 wrote: A group of 3 to 5 of these fitted with a sebo and a few tackle frigates will be a good small gang. A 55km blaster mega sounds very interesting to me.
Interesting maybe, but I'm going to have to see it in action before I'll view it as more than a gimmick that can be done just as well if not better for cheaper. For a start a Rokh with a few Tracking Computers can hit almost that far in Optimal + Falloff with Null.
But not as far, and not nearly as hard, and not with the tracking bonus, can't MJD as fast and has nothing close to that active tank. But yeah, it's cheaper.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3307
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote: Granted, High Energy Physics requires Science V which many people will have for +5 implants, but if you're increasing the powergrid on Marauders, Engineering V isn't needed except for Capital Shield/Energy systems. So you're basically screwing over armor dreads and people who use HEP research agents? Disclaimer: this was after a quick scan of Evemon, I may have missed critical items that make Science V and Engineering V "mandatory."
Graviton Physics (DIC and HIC bubbles, now HICs themselves) and Jump Drive Operation (caps) have Science V as prerec.
Engineering V is a fundamental fitting skill and as such mandatory for all combat ships starting from frigs, as well as a prerec for Thermodynamics, another mandatory combat skill.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3307
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:
I know how to read them, I'm telling you that when I click those links to look at them they're completely blank. No ships shown on either side.
The cloaky-tengu joke was literally a joke about there not being anything to see in those battle-reports...
R-click, open in a new tab, just like every kb link on these forums.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3307
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote: PVP wise, marauders DPS is not high enough for the risks of going into bastion, a golem or kronos got the highest DPS (which btw its the very same DPS a normal hyperion or raven,cnr or CNS gets) so you could just as well overtank any of those ships for 1/10 of the price, and achieve the same result.
the damage projection bonus wont help, because in the game you never get to that situation.
Except a Kronos does significantly more dps than the Hype with equal tank, but with significantly better tracking and range, while being immune to rat ewar.
hth
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3308
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Posted - 2013.09.02 12:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: Are you saying that the bastion module makes you feel safer about lowsec pve?
I think most people would see the bastion module as a liability in lowsec, in the same way as triage mode on carriers. Being forced to stay still is a huge liability.
60 seconds+MJD wind-up time, which is only available to the attacker in the rather unlikely worst case scenario (marauder enters bastion at the same time attacker enters system, marauder is in dscan range from the entry point), is not an awfully long time to get scrams on the marauder. I don't see it happening reliably if the marauder is deep inside a plex.
Statistically you'll enter a system with the marauder already x seconds into the bastion cycle, possibly off dscan (lets say 10 seconds for warp), doing KB intel to avoid a trap, dropping probes, two scan passes (10 seconds), warp to marauder (10 seconds), lock and survive. That's +35 seconds and those numbers are quite optimistic.
You can't point it before it exits bastion. My point being that 60 seconds might feel long for the marauder pilot when local spikes at the unfortunate moment of immediately after pushing the Bosstion button, but generally the attackers are actually in a hurry if they want to catch it before it MJDs away to safety and trolls you in local.
Practically speaking, if I'd be hunting for solo PVE marauders after this change, I'd want an alpha- Nado squad with Arazu/Proteus to scram it down and not die in flames, or LR scrams+ Curse or Legion (Geddon?) to neut it, and a number of HACs that can stay under it's guns to actually kill it- I'd bet every marauder that gets scrammed before MJD will bastion and fight back like an animal backed into a corner. It's not like he has much choices. If it's a shield marauder, only thing you can do about it is to alpha thru the reps or endure the hurt until it runs out of juice, armor ones you can at least neut.
This means a rather pricey and coordinated small gang equal or exceeding the ISK value of the marauder- which sounds like balance in my books. And yeah, at least half of the marauders you'll see will be baits :)
tl;dr- I've soloed PVE marauders before, which was awesome, but it's not going to happen anymore. If a ship becomes unsoloable, it is arguably more safer outside hisec. I'd go even as far as claiming that bastion marauders are not easy targets for a typical kitchen sink roaming small gang.
Oh and this was obviously concerning die-hard forever-alone marauderists, nothing prevents bears flying them in pairs or for example with a new CS, raising the bar even higher. It's not something that for example a handful of Taloses can deal with.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3309
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Posted - 2013.09.02 12:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
As what comes to the rebalancing itself, I'd very much prefer a mid/low instead of another utility high (new NOSes don't help marauders much/at all and heavy neuts aren't such a great idea with active tank), they really should have a bit more drone capability, and I'd also like to see their mineral requirements toned down a bit to put them clearly under pirate BS prices.
Alternatively, give them one more effective turret and keep slots as they are.
And while you're at it, **** on-grid probing, multiple ASBs and fix the damn EWAR drones.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3311
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Posted - 2013.09.02 14:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:David Kir wrote:C4 sites, get ready.
You gon' get Vargurified. Despite my reservations about the bastion module, it will at least increase the number of solo-vargurs on my killboard, so I guess every cloud has a silver lining. I'll even be able to probe you out and warp to you in a combat sig before you can drop bastion mode. yay \o/
Ok, so now you've warped to that C4 site in your ship x. Vargur is in Bastion, two remaining Sleepless Safeguards and the Vargur start locking you up. You are pointed, webbed and neuted by all of them and start receiving about 2000 points of damage per second. Sleeper battleships are too far for you to hit, and you can't even scratch the tank of the Vargur.
Your move next- deaggro, pray to last for one minute without cap so you can eject to avoid SP loss, or just wait for the inevitable explosion?
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3311
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Posted - 2013.09.02 15:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Not quite. along with me will be a devoter, a couple of dps ships, some neuts and a couple of logis. You've done wormholes before, right? Your move, big man
I got the impression you meant actually soloing the Vargur since you spoke in singular. Which would have been worth gloating. But yeah, you are correct, you need a small fleet to take down a single PVE ship. Which is dramatically different from the current iteration of marauders.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3311
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
No, I never fly solo in wormholes - and neither will you more than once in a vargur.
I really wish I could say that thse changes will make marauders viable for solo pve in dangerous space - but they won't.
They need to be re-thought IMHO
Well I do fly solo wherever the **** I feel like flying, and my point is that stuff likethis isn't going to happen once these changes go live.
They will certainly be more viable for the actual PVE part than most other ships, high dps reduces exposure, and really- no ship is safe from ganks in w-space, solo or not.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3312
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Posted - 2013.09.02 15:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
I don't think that's how balance works. No amount of ISK should make anyone safe from dedicated group of skilled hunters. Like you said, we work hard to make ganks happen. And I argue that the suggested marauders are harder to gank than current ones, as far as I can see, impossible to solo gank.
Isn't this an improvement?
You'll be able to solo PVE harder sites, giving you higher returns for investment. People have used blinged T3s in w-space, marauders aren't more expensive, but clear sites faster. I've personally never approved of T3s in w-space PVE, but I can actually see it worthwhile to drop MJD Kronoses on a C4 site with the normal precautions. Surely you are under serious risk when in bosstion mode, but you'll also make more ISK. Risk vs reward etc.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3313
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Posted - 2013.09.03 06:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
So many badposters
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3315
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yeah no more than 500hp/s is ever needed in any PVE
Source: anon hisec scrub
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3315
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Posted - 2013.09.03 09:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Damage application & projection = real damage
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3315
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: Maybe it's not the marauders that need to change. Maybe it's just that the players need some education and leadership in marauder use?
This is EVE Online, where people actually think Tengus are super awesome for sleeper sites, and that Lokis and Legions make any kind of sense in sleeper sites. On a more serious note, marauders take what, 3-4 times(?) longer to train to an optimal level than T3s.
That said, I've seen marauders 5-6 times in w-space for PVE purposes. I'm also considering moving back to wormholes just so I can bait bads with a Kronos.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3316
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Posted - 2013.09.03 15:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Roime wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: Maybe it's not the marauders that need to change. Maybe it's just that the players need some education and leadership in marauder use?
This is EVE Online, where people actually think Tengus are super awesome for sleeper sites, and that Lokis and Legions make any kind of sense in sleeper sites. On a more serious note, marauders take what, 3-4 times(?) longer to train to an optimal level than T3s. That said, I've seen marauders 5-6 times in w-space for PVE purposes. I'm also considering moving back to wormholes just so I can bait bads with a Kronos. Do it!!! I will look out for you - we shall have awesome fights. A merry time shall be had by all. \o/
Might even be worth it to buy a marauder character without any KB history :)
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3323
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Posted - 2013.09.04 13:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Well, it massively increases solo PvE income.....if you're willing to take the risk. They can run L5 missions at over twice the rate of any other subcapital, clear nullsec and/or wormhole anoms at over twice the rate, and they can salvage while you're doing this leading to 2-3 times the income that was possible before from any of these sources.
Assuming no-one molests you, soloing C4s or even C3s in one of these returns more ISK/hour than any current PvE activity. C3/C4 sleeper battleships are worth on average about 15-20m ISK EACH, and these ships can fit enough gank to kill one in under a minute while still easily tanking the site. It's much better ISK/hour than capital escalations in a C6 and has probably far less risk, as C4s are very sparsely populated.
Sleeper frigs orbit at 5-6.5km and can all be smartbombed with faction smartbombs, sleeper cruisers die in 3 volleys and 1200 DPS kills a sleeper battleship in about a minute. You can probably exceed 300m/hour if you find an untouched wormhole with 30 sites up.
but but but there is no other PVE besides null anoms and L4s
andandand it's less cost-effective than slowly and tediously grinding the same sleeper sites in a 1.5bil ISK Tengu with **** for dps
somehow
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3328
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
So a T2 resist Mega with fu-Falcon+superLAAR -mode and a bonused web? Hell yeah :D
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3328
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Posted - 2013.09.05 13:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
Scrapping my skill plan and training for Kronos <3
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
The Scope Gallente Federation
3328
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Posted - 2013.09.06 06:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:So, to sum up my previous post:
1. We're generally talking about three usage scenarios here: conventional PvE (anoms / missions), small-scale PvP (solo, small gang), and large-scale fleet PvP / PvE (I think it's safe to lump fleet fights and Incursion / WH PvP into this category, since the mechanics share a lot of overall similarities)
2. These three usage scenarios each demand a different set of competences from a ship
3. A ship that possessed multiple sets of competences would be supremely overpowered
4. A ship that possessed portions of multiple sets of competences would not be overpowered, but would also excel at nothing and therefore be incapable of justifying a T2 pricetag
5. Conclusion: it is best to build separate, specialized T2 hulls for traditional PvE and small-scale PvP, while leaving large-scale PvP and PvE to the more generalist hulls that already exist and fill these roles very well.
Interestingly, the whole "T2 ships not better, but specialized" thing is Ytterbium's own design gimmick, which leaves me even more perplexed as to why he seems to have taken an antithetical approach with his proposed Marauder changes. Ytterbium's proposed ships are a perfect example of #4 here-- a ship that tries to specialize in two things, but makes so many tradeoffs to avoid being overpowered in either role that it ends up offering no useful benefits in either. The current blackops BS have the same problem: if you fit them for combat, you're wasting their logistics bonuses and end up with a ship that's not particularly good at combat; if you fit them as a gang-support ship, you waste their combat-friendly attributes and end up with a ship that isn't particularly good at being a jump-bridge. It would be infinitely preferable to just have a selection of ships where each one caters to one of these usage patterns-- a new PvE battleship for doing conventional, solo PvE; a new Marauder that focuses on being a little bit sneaky and very skirmishy; a new blackops that actually does it's job of being very sneaky while supporting covert gangs well; and the newly-rebalanced T1 battleships for generalist uses like fleet PvP, Incursions and wormholes. By separating the ships out by roles, it becomes possible to create a ship that can justify its pricetag for one activity while not being too good at another.
"PVP" and "PVE" are not roles and "PVE ship" or "PVP ship" doesn't mean anything. And on top of that, designing a ship for PVE would just end up in the state marauders currently are- **** ships that nobody flies, because pirate BS, ships not designed for a ********, non-existing arbitrary misconception of a role are better in PVE activities.
Ships are designed to perform a task, or execute a tactic. Kiter, brawler, logistics, tackler, booster are roles. Marauder is a role, and it's a new role with no existing meta in game- there are no functional T2 combat battleships in game currently. This is what CCP is trying to do, and if they succeed, people will adopt it, metas emerge and then also EVE happens- ship finds other uses.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
The Scope Gallente Federation
3328
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Posted - 2013.09.06 07:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Quote:
Ships are designed to perform a task, or execute a tactic. Kiter, brawler, logistics, tackler, booster are roles. Marauder is a role, and it's a new role with no existing meta in game- there are no functional T2 general combat battleships in game currently. This is what CCP is trying to do, and if they succeed, people will adopt it, metas emerge and then also EVE happens- ship finds other uses.
Well if they have an eye on doing anything PvP wise with them that bastion mode needs help. Local reps only Can't move No damage bonus? What do you do with it other then present a half a dread loot pinata? They are to slow to use against anything but a potato fleet, no damage bonus, can't break slows without multi fleets, bastion mode blocking remote reps means you can't use them defensively, they just get alpha'd eventually.....oh and T2 insurance, a dread would likely cost the same to lose. So WTF are you supposed to do with a presumed billion isk "PvP" battleship. The module mode battleship idea is cool, but we see with triage aka suicide carriers and siege dreads how well local reps work in fleet combat.
This is exactly what I mean, "PVP" is not a term describing an activity in any detail, it's a class of greatly varying activities from solo roaming in FW lowsec, small T3 gangs in wormholes to supercap blobs. Most of the time people only comprehend "PVP" in their own context.
An example: Noob asks random people "Is Proteus any good for PVP?"
Lowsec guy says no, it's too expensive. Hisec guy says it's awesome on the undock with HG slaves and 17 neutral Guardian alts. Another lowsec guy says it's too slow and will be kited to death. Nullsec guy says it's useless as it can't project damage out to 50km. WH guys says it's the best ship for PVP for it's mass/dps/tank ratio.
They are all correct, but the question was broken to begin with. 90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3338
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 08:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
Alternatively, you MJD right into middle of the rat blob, bastion and kill them with close range guns with extended range and bonused web, resulting in faster completion than shooting them from range.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3338
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 08:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Roime wrote:Alternatively, you MJD right into middle of the rat blob, bastion and kill them with close range guns with extended range and bonused web, resulting in faster completion than shooting them from range.
You jump into a blob, turn on your tank... oh, wait: you brought webbers instead of a tank.
Yep, armor tankers have the midslot advantage, but the upgraded resists and bastion bonus to reps means that you can tank rats with less slots. 90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3338
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 09:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks
So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3339
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Posted - 2013.09.07 10:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Roime wrote:Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus? " its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod," There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply. The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions. ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there.
"and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough"
And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus. 90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3341
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Posted - 2013.09.07 12:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Baal Zann wrote:Roime wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Roime wrote:Baal Zann wrote:honestly without the tank bonus they're just plain going to be too soft, i was excited when i heard about this in the first iteration, now im thinking about selling my vargur, without its current rep bonus its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod, and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough, is immobile, and has a ton of close range advantages when its used as a long range ship, seems like its just going to fall through the cracks So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus? " its going to tank uselessly without the bastion mod," There is no rep bonus outside of bastion, so the 100% doesn't always apply. The vargur loses Kin/EX tank outside of bastion, which for those that use it against all factions due to damage type versatility means yes, they are loosing tank against some factions. ED: With the bastion it should handle anything thrown at it, so not seeing an issue there. "and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough" And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus. im talking pvp not pve, pve it could still be usefull i suppose due to specific resist targets, but in pvp you want omnitank, and even with a bastion mod, thats just not enough due to the removal of the hull specific rep bonus
How much do they tank in bastion, and what do you consider "enough" tank for "pvp"? Solo Oneiros amount? Pair of Guards? Dozen triage Archon? Dual XLASB Mael? Triple rep Hype?
Just trying to figure out what you mean, and if it's based on actual numbers.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3342
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 13:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote: That's fine, to my mind. But dropping the Marauder's rep bonus for T2 resists is not. It favours tanking some rats, and leaves you with shite performance against others (and some missions where, eg, Angels employ EM turrets, etc). This isn't always sufficient to realistically rely on bastion; you just get 2 effective reppers and the same achilles heel resist holes.
That is what this hooplah is about.
Bastion mode and everything is more or less fine in iteration 2. The real problem has been the gutting of the rep bonus for useless webs and applying T2 resists. This benefits nothing.
They had to gut it because it was OP for niche situations and of very limited use outside those situations. Replacing it with T2 expands marauder usability, while still keeping bastion tanking viable. It works much better with logi now.
I can see how the web bonus is useless for LR fits, but it's extremely powerful on close range fits.
T2 resists and webs benefit PVP applications.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3344
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Posted - 2013.09.07 13:41:00 -
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MBizon Osis wrote:What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag)
Like T3s, pirate ships and capitals?
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
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Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.07 13:57:00 -
[31] - Quote
MBizon Osis wrote:Roime wrote:MBizon Osis wrote:What ever happens to the marauder class it will prolly be a mostly pve boat (due to price tag) Like T3s, pirate ships and capitals? The caps I can't say as I don't fly em, but the rest do a lot of pve and your point?
That pricetag doesn't make ships "mostly PVE", marauders aren't especially expensive compared to normal T3 fits, and nothing compared to pirate BS fits or caps.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.07 14:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Close range fits for a ship with MJD and extended range bonus? And then sacrifice tank for that "short range effectiveness"?
Yep, MJD that can be used after each bastion cycle allows you to instantly blink to the next spawn, and the extended range extends the effective range of brawler fits. You have better tank due to the resists and bonuses, which allows you to fit a web. And it doesn't affect the tank or armor marauders.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.07 14:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Roime wrote:That pricetag doesn't make ships "mostly PVE", marauders aren't especially expensive compared to normal T3 fits, and nothing compared to pirate BS fits or caps.
wowowowowowo wooooooooooooooo... I can get 2,5 random T3 ships for 1.1bil you better check market before posting.
wowoowowowoowowoooooo common T3 PVP fits cost 1-1.2bil
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.07 14:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
wowowowoowowwooo 90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.08 08:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
So many people who think L4s are the only form of PVE in the whole game.
Harry Forever flies a cap stable marauder and you should too.-á |
Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.08 09:19:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Roime wrote:So many people who think L4s are the only form of PVE in the whole game.
No, but they are the primary use of Marauders at the moment and a lot of us would rather that not be invalidated in the name of other PvE. Besides and honestly I'm somewhat wary of trying to get a Marauder to out-perform a Carrier in null or a T3 (for its mass) in a Wormhole.
Primary use currently yes, which is a result of the Triumvirate of Terribad- L4 runners being terribad, the ships being terribad and L4s being terribad.
Making marauders better can't cure L4 runners or the missions and it's clear that straightforward buffs won't make marauders worse for L4s (it might force L4 runners to rethink, refit and adapt, which seems to be a major issue) but it can expand their use to other areas, and possibly even encourage L4 runners to something else for a change.
As it's been said numerous times, any T1 ship can run L4s efficiently- they should not be used as a yardstick for high performance ships. I'm personally eyeing marauders in PVE context as the default option for C3/4s and L5s, as well as plexing. The rationale behind is this- if you can solo content more efficiently than T3s with the same price tag, it's worth the risk, and if you can solo content where a carrier is viable, it's certainly less risky to use a battleship.
In case of solo or small gang PVE in wormholes, mass is pretty much irrelevant. Leaving out running home sites, jumping a couple of battleships with scouts and Noctis thru a C3/4 several times doesn't close the hole, and you'll close it on purpose anyway after it's done. For wh PVP mass remains a consideration, and naturally marauders won't replace T3s as the rank & file ship, but if the rebalancing succeeds they might have a special role in fleets.
Subcaps are not supposed to outperform capitals in tank/dps, smaller hulls just have other advantages.
Ideally rebalancing makes marauders better for demanding PVE, and viable for some areas of PVP. I seriously doubt succeeding in these would make them worse for L4s. Harry Forever flies a cap stable marauder and you should too.-á |
Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.09 06:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Iome Ambraelle wrote:I didn't really understand why the version 1 numbers were so amazing that they needed to be gutted until I started working the numbers for the shield tanked marauders. I'll post the same type of numbers for the Vargur after I finish them, but needless to say the shield numbers get quite rediculous. Shield tanking is why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Actually you could get some pretty silly numbers out of Armor Marauders too, if you really tried. The first gen numbers weren't bad, but people wanted full T2 resists for PvP and the resist bonus on Bastion would have been OP all by itself if combine with T2 resists so the resist bonus had to go if we wanted T2 resists. The thing is, they were only supposed to be for niche PVP situations and small gang or solo at that, the T2 resists were added because fleet whiners.
Do you find the T2 resists somehow bad for non-fleet whiners? Harry Forever flies a cap stable marauder and you should too.-á |
Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.09 06:41:00 -
[38] - Quote
The problem with the first iteration was that it was too extreme- overpowered in micro engagements without logi, and useless even in small gangs with logi (=solo logi or a pair). I find going for T2 resists expands the viability of marauders a lot.
Harry Forever flies a cap stable marauder and you should too.-á |
Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.09 07:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
Ships aren't rebalanced to be OP in niche situations. Harry Forever flies a cap stable marauder and you should too.-á |
Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.12 13:52:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
The initial proposal was like, "cool!"
Then they changed it and the answer has been like "oh sh*t" in most posts since.
Is there a message?
I think yes.
Message 1: no, the new proposal is not liked by players. Message 2: yes, the initial proposal was liked better. Message 3: why did someone suggest the devs that they should make proposal 2 instead of 1? Who was? Not someone who posted here to defend proposal 2... maybe was the CSM " "representatives" "?
Luckily CCP understands that game balancing involving spaceships/character classes is not so much about what players "like" as it is about creating a functional game that is enjoyable as a whole.
Let's imagine chessonline as an example. Chess developers would be faced with the challenge of the King underperforming, and being less used than the Queen. They post their initial ideas to forums.chessonline.com, and OUTRAEGGG111!!! follows! These people want the King to have movable arms and blinking eyes, castling with any other piece and unlimited movement. Turns out that the players giving the most vocal feedback avoid all human contact and prefer to play against AI on Training-level difficulty, and equally interested in dressing up their Kings with Ken clothes and playing with it, rather than actually trying to defeat their human opponents on the chessboard. . |
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Roime
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Posted - 2013.09.12 18:42:00 -
[41] - Quote
Kara Corvinus wrote:im not a high sec'er, but this is stupid, CCP you gave miners the orca and rorq, i thought the entire point of the marauder was to give mission runners something, and now your taking it away from them?
Mission runners can use any subcap in the game to do their thing. Marauders can be used in hisec. Where did you get the idea that they won't be able to use marauders anymore?
Quote:This is why EvE is not a sandbox, CCP should change it statement to
EVE ONLINE : You can do what ever you want / but unless your in 0.0 we don't give a F' and your games going to be mega boring....
Well the whole premise of hisec is that it's not a sandbox. You can't do what you want and have restrictions at the same time, high security is all about restrictions. Which also makes it boring. No idea how sandox relates to marauders, but your fluffy strawman distracted me there for a moment.
Quote:And as for all these "don't listen to the care bears" bs posts, 90% of people in 0.0 are care bears. we all know this.
This is partly correct. I've come to the conclusion that the biggest issue of null is that it's the only place hibears have ever heard of, and where they migrate when they get old. Wormholes and low get the talent, and nullseccers have to settle for ex-L4 runners. Luckily the guys are experienced dealing with the future nullbears, and will place them in renter alliances to produce rat ISK and fodder for F1 blobs.
Quote:As it stands mission running is a boring repetitive cruncher running the same damn missions over & over, requiring a silly amount of SP to complete l4's properly, with such a bad isk per hour model its a joke.
Silly amounts of SP, ISK, Failfitclinic.com and detailed walk-through guides can substitute for player skill in simple tasks such as L4s, true.
Quote:you already ruined PVE team work by changing the AI so fleet composition of tanks / healers / dps is now pointless. , now your just going to place the final nail in the coffin.
Well this amusing. I mean even more amusing than the rest of your rant, which as a whole is very amusing. Did you know that Sleeper/Sansha AI is especially designed to promote team work, and there's a ton of guys enjoying it all the time?
The best thing about a thriving sandbox is that there's people shifting sand all the time. Those who fail to adapt, get buried under it.
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Roime
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Posted - 2013.10.02 15:37:00 -
[42] - Quote
Glad I didn't buy the marauders skillbook yet, what a disappointment this revert decision is.
Bastion Kronos without the web bonus fails when fit for blaster brawling, it can't hold targets inside blaster range, and with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.
For 600-700mil hull this would be ok performance, but not at nearly billion.
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Roime
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Posted - 2013.10.02 16:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Roime wrote: with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.
With MJD in PvE nothing Should be getting close...
Which means you don't need the bastion mode either.
Confused ships.
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Roime
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Posted - 2013.10.03 06:34:00 -
[44] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.
New Kronos is probably the most pointless ship in the Gallente lineup
Web bonus would make it viable.
That's all there really is to it tbh.
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Roime
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Posted - 2013.10.04 06:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Roime wrote:baltec1 wrote: Webs do not fit the new kronos and would be a waste of a mid and an unused bonus.
New Kronos is probably the most pointless ship in the Gallente lineup Web bonus would make it viable. That's all there really is to it tbh. Its a long ranged boat that is too slow to catch other battleships. Webs are near useless on such a ship, even more so with the vindi which would out class it in every way.
What exactly would make it a long range ship, and where would you use a long range battleship?
Right, nothing, bastion is a close range module, it has tons of utility highs, MJDs worked before people realized they need to fit scrams, and ABCs are 10 cheaper and do the sniping job better.
It's a slow close range ship and as such it needs a bonused web to be worth undocking. Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |
Roime
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Posted - 2013.10.04 09:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
Yeah it indeed does have the tracking bonus, and the falloff bonus with bonused web would make blasters work extremely well even when immobile in bastion mode.
Bastion mode is only useful in close range, you go all in. Going bastion in a LR ship means that inties have ample time to burn to you, or you get probed down and scrammed, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about ships that get under your LR guns without bonused webs.
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Roime
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Posted - 2013.10.04 11:33:00 -
[47] - Quote
Anyway, "sniping battleships in small gang" is really hilarious.
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Roime
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Posted - 2013.10.13 07:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
So I guess there's no chance anymore that marauders would be made usable on TQ?
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