As already noted, these boys will do fine on their own in small to medium sized engagements, but have been purpose designed to not be the ship of choice for a large fleet battle.

Tractor bonus is clearly to keep it useful singleboxing PvE like they said they wanted. I doubt if it was removed that we'd get another replacement so its fine.

Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius...

oh look, chance to hit is different than tracking. Chance to hit includes tracking. Wow, its as if what i just said was entirely accurate.

I feel like you are entirely missing the point of the original comment. His implication was that 800 Autocannons would apply damage as well as medium blasters. This is blatantly false.

Not really, if anything it becomes more relevant because it becomes harder to get additional boosts to tracking and you start losing a larger relative percentage of damage to signature resolution. Due to stacking penalties at a certain point you're likely to be better off adding a Target Painter than another tracking computer depending on the signature size of the target.

For a start, I'm actually very well versed in how the formula works, I've spent the last week playing with it in various spreadsheets to figure out the implications of the HAC MWD bonus (it's pretty darn awesome).

Second if you drop the tracking on the Auto-Cannons to .15 and throw a 30% sig buff on a 140 sig target you actually gain more DPS than with the .17 tracking and no sig buff.

You're missing the point: this dude comes in and says, "my 800mm ACs will have the same rad/sec tracking as my medium blasters, ergo they will apply damage just as well." The point is that he's wrong since tracking is only one determiner of hit quality.

You should give them a fuel bay and make them use fuel.
Using their mini siege mode for free forever makes them virtually impossible to kill solo, or even with small numbers.

I was actually expecting the Marauder changes to add more ... flexibility to the hulls. I kinda feel that putting them in "Siege mode" is going the other way,

Well here is the thing... You are very well aware of what marauders can do. Engage it without proper intel and you deserve the hotdrop.
But cyno can be fitted on pretty much aything. Difference is, that the marauder is more likely to survive.

It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.

It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.

A rather massive spike in the price of the Kronos says people are really excited about this. Granted this is the Eve markets and they may be betting against what they think the idea will turn into but this at least shows a fair amount of interest in the concept.

Also that special snowflake situation would be most level 4 missions and probably a good number of low and null scan sites.

[quote=Rroff]
I would be somewhat interested in seeing a source for this. While it's not a large market it's a rather expensive one and the timing coincides almost exactly with the start of this thread.

personal slander...pot ....kettle

Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you

just more of a visual learner

The first iteration had me excited... This new one is total bull, who needs a web anyway when NOTHING survives to web range? My Paladin even as it currently is on TQ can kill pretty much everything with _TACH BEAMS_ before the rats get closer than 40km. Usually they die before they can get up to speed.

Only things that actually need droned to death are the Mk2 web drones, because they got devhaxx and fly to you @5km/s, and whne mission has them, those are the last ones to take out anyway.

While I like the idea, somehow having something that can fix itself in space doesn't seem very Maraudery.

When one marauds, one is roaming in search of plunder or prey. That is the aspect that should be looked at.

Why this marauder idea is bad:

GÇó capitals are brought on field if subcap fight looks favorable
GÇó t2 buffer marauders roflstomp all other subcap fleets (possibly even worse with target spectrum breakers putting the EHP into good use)
GÇó only bang for buck counter is dronefleet


What could be done about it:

Make the bastion a siege mode with guns gaining double rate of fire but hopping tracking and resolution to dread levels. This would make marauders an anti-capital power creep mechanism. The bastion mode would only hit structures and capships, for subcaps you use them like normal BS. Cut the t2 resist crap and roll bonus into bastion which now won't work against subcaps. Cut the ewar immunity crap. Keep the damage projection bonus in hull stats to make them decent for pve. Cut the MJD crap.

This is a good thing. The difference in range, lock timeand numbers still vastly favor the marauder blob. It's not supposed to solo kill a capital, that would just be redundant power creep.

It's the subcapital anti-capital wing.

Dropping dreads on 200 marauders each pushing 2000-3000dps against capitals, each sporting target spectrum breaker to make the dread pilots hate their lock time... Not a good move.

The first Vargur iteration could local tank three sieged dreads. The Golem could tank four.

I never said it was a good idea to do this, I just said it was possible in response to the other guy's criticism that the posted strategy wouldn't work because local tanking dreads was/is impossible.

I don't disagree that T2 brawling battleships might be interesting, but PVE marauders are probably not a good place to start.

wait a tick.

think about the name...Marauder.
from wiki-
ma-+raud-+er
/m+Ö-êr+¦d+Ör/
noun

noun: marauder;GÇâplural noun: marauders

1. a person who marauds; a raider.
"a band of English marauders were surprised and overcome"
synonyms:
raider, plunderer, pillager, looter, robber, pirate, freebooter, bandit, bandito, highwayman, rustler;

to me, this sounds like a ship thats designed to get in fast, strike hard and leave. they should not be tanky bricks, they
should have t2 resists, be as fast as command ships, strike with lethal force and fade. they should have mobility and
the mjd bonus fits that well. low sensor str is one thing, but it needs high scan res. has to lock and dish out the pain.
the sensor str being limited and only pumped up in bastion mode actually fits this play style. "forget electronics..when
we hit bastion mode, NOTHING CAN STOP US!"
lesser tank (not minimal) is ok, if we have good resists. somewhere between a command ship and a t1 bs with a bonus
attached similar to the damnation.

now, we can add the bastion mode which would give whatever bonuses you guys determine, but a marauder is a
quick striking ship. this train of thought would fit right in with the mjd/sniper mode. or, one could set it up for gank
with burner/mwd and speed in to orbit. it doesnt need more damage bonuses, it need application. more tracking, more range, explosion radius or velocity or just:

-make the golem a hybrid platform and just have gun mode in all things. bastion gives good gun bonuses along with
tank or rep. the golem was made when the raven was a beast of a torp boat...old skewl.
-take some armor, give us the 7.5% rep rate back.
-give it an rr bonus similar (but way less) than logi. maybe out to 20k on large reppers.
-how about similar to the damnation, a 7.5% bonus to armor or shield per lev? we have less armor than normal, but through experience, we learn to "fight the ship"?


this way fits a marauder style better. to go in, wreak havoc, patch each other up and leave.
self reliance as an individual or a team.

Pretty much this. I didn't understand either until I started running the numbers for myself. I thought my spreadsheet was broken lol. Thus my signature.

Please, find me a definition ANYWHERE that specifies that Marauders are a fast moving force.
Well, at least anywhere apart from writing your own definition.

Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations.
They've been used as hit and run tactics to steal valuables to try and shut down their opponents supply lines.
They've been used in castle sieges.
They've been used to raise villages, including slaughtering the people.

By definition, anyone who enters somewhere in search of loot or booty is a Marauder.

I can break into your house, and I am a Marauder.
I can rob a bank, and I am a Marauder.
I can siege FT Knox, and I am a Marauder.

All of these require different speeds and tactics, and the last actually would require heavy armor and vehicles.
This isn't exactly fast, but it's still Marauding.


And yes, if I come to your castle with the intent of looting, then reguardless of what weapons I bring to get into your castle, I am still a Marauder... Even if I bring a trebuchet..

That is not in the definition, but is however, covered by the definition.

I had a list of definitions, but for some reason, I can't post with those attached definitions.
Just google Marauder definition.


Not one of the definitions specifies hit and run tactics.


However, to be exact, they more specifically refer to "attacking" and/or "raiding".
Neither of these two words specify hit and run tactics either.
You can "attack" or "raid" a castle.
The only thing specific to Marauders is that they are there specifically in search of loot/spoils/booty/whatever other word you want to use.


As Marauders are now, they easily fall under the aspect of being a Marauder by definition.
Players use them in missions specifically because of their tractor, salvaging, and cargohold.
They can loot and salvage while killing... I.E. a Marauder.

Actually, by definition, their use in PVP is less like a Marauder than their current PVE use.
This is because they typically aren't used to loot and salvage in PVP.

Therefore, they're more likely raiding/pillaging in PVP.
Very few players use them in PVP with their Marauding capability, but rather by-pass marauding for more utility.

So, IMO, if you want a hit and run ship, then CCP needs to create a new class of BSs that are Raiders or Pillagers.
They come onto the map specifically to destroy.. Whether this includes speed with hit and run tactics is up to CCP.