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Hey CCP, it's long past time to nerf local.

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Rells	Posted - 2006.01.05 20:58:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 05/01/2006 20:58:36 Local is one of the most annoying things in the game and the effect of local impacts on many other things in the game. Basically it gives people in a system 100% intelligence that causes there to be few real decisive engagements in the game. One fleet is in a system, another fleet jumps in 15 ships to the other fleet's 10 and the first fleet runs off. Similarly local has the effect of making behind the lines work or sneaking nearly impossible. But the reality is that local even does these actions via uses of it that were definitely not intended by the devs. If you are an alliance pilot like myself you probably have most of your enemies in your buddy list. That way you can see in local who is hostile or not. This of course increases lag, is unweildy and singularly unnecessary. On the other hand it is clear that local is needed for local communication (the original purpose.) It is also clear that there needs to be some form of way to scan a system to see if there are hostiles there. However that scanning action shouldnt be free, indefinite, instant and require no effort. Instead I think 2 things should be done. 1) Local should be nerfed so that the only pictures that show up in local on the character list are the recent speakers (similar to how the help channel works). 2) A new skill and modules should be introduced for scanning a system. For now I will call them Warp Signature Scanners and Warp Signature Scanning Skill. The module when fitted to the ship would scan the system and report the results using your overview settings. Note that this is different from the scanner now as this would cover the whole system. Those that have this new Electronic Warfare module fitted to their ship can scan the system at a certain interval of time. The better the skill, the more often they can scan. Results would be reported with display similar to overview settings taking into account color and icon settings for security status, war targets and so on. Another skill, Warp Signature Differentiation, could be introduced which increases the chance of reporting the class and type of ship scanned. The better the skill, the more chance of the report being something other than the pilot name with "unknown" for ship type. What these changes would do is allow people to communicate in local and turn local scanning into an active task. This would re-introduce stealth and guile to the game as well as allow for things like suprise attacks and so on. At the same time people would still be able to talk to each other on local. Comments? Suggestions? ◄ I must not fear. ◄ Fear is the mind-killer. ◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. ◄ -- Paul Atreides
Kyle Caldrel	Posted - 2006.01.05 20:59:00 - [2] signed ******************************************************* What ya gonna do, when I come for you!?
Volatar	Posted - 2006.01.05 21:02:00 - [3] this is a great idea!
Winterblink	Posted - 2006.01.05 21:02:00 - [4] I think there are bigger fish to fry right now than local... winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Rells	Posted - 2006.01.05 21:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Winterblink I think there are bigger fish to fry right now than local... It is a small thing with wide impact. You will be suprised what will change if this is done. ◄ I must not fear. ◄ Fear is the mind-killer. ◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. ◄ -- Paul Atreides
Winterblink	Posted - 2006.01.05 21:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Winterblink I think there are bigger fish to fry right now than local... It is a small thing with wide impact. You will be suprised what will change if this is done. I'm not saying I don't agree with you, I'm just saying I'd rather see them keep the game's entire economy from falling apart. That's a big thing with a wide impact. :) winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Juan Sancho	Posted - 2006.01.05 21:20:00 - [7] I like this idea.
Coasterbrian	Posted - 2006.01.05 21:32:00 - [8] We're sorry. The service you are trying to reach is unavailable, as it is busy trying to deal with server stability issues and isk farmers. Please try again later. ---------- Originally by: riker to thebold first post w/ your main. Soft and Crunchy 4tw! \o/
Stogee	Posted - 2006.01.05 21:35:00 - [9] I was thinking this very same thought only the other week. signed
Rells	Posted - 2006.01.05 21:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Rells Originally by: Winterblink I think there are bigger fish to fry right now than local... It is a small thing with wide impact. You will be suprised what will change if this is done. I'm not saying I don't agree with you, I'm just saying I'd rather see them keep the game's entire economy from falling apart. That's a big thing with a wide impact. :) Doing big things is good, dont get me wrong. However, if you always push off the small stuff for later, it will never get done. This is a connuncdrum common in computer programming. This task could be done in Kali with very small investment of time and resources compared to fixing bigger issues. ◄ I must not fear. ◄ Fear is the mind-killer. ◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. ◄ -- Paul Atreides

Zhainey	Posted - 2006.01.05 21:44:00 - [11] Well at first I thought that was gonna be a whine but actually: what a cool idea, although personally I'd go with just a skill and no mod for system scanning, and another skill for telling ship type like you say. I dont think people should have to damage their set ups to scan local but it should require some effort and awareness beyone putting local channel in it's own box and staring at it.
Demangel	Posted - 2006.01.05 21:48:00 - [12] Signed! Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
TFer Atvar	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:00:00 - [13] I think it's a good idea to nerf local, but not in the way you've suggested. A simpler, and far easier way to implement this would be to simply not have people in corporations you are at war with show up in chat windows. You're not going to be talking with them anyway, so you don't lose anything. Negotiations can still go on through Eve-Mail, and I believe that simply removing characters you're at war with would provide what you're looking for without the need for new skills or anything so complex.
TimeKeepr	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:00:00 - [14] sounds like an excellent idea, it would be nice to see this someday. maybe not right away, as ccp has other issues to deal with right now...but sometime.
Virago	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:02:00 - [15] LOLERS Dear CCP, we can't seem to catch ppls with our blobs....they run and hide.... This is a ridiculous idea. Try PvPing smarter ...
Lividicus	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:03:00 - [16] Local most certainly does need to be changed, its too easy to avoid combat with your enemies. And makes covert ops work impossible. The easiest way to do this would be to not show names at all in the sidebar, only in chat, if you want to be seen, you can speak, if you dont, you can choose not to speak.
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:03:00 - [17] There was a big developer blog on this about a year ago. They want to for many reasons was the gist. but for a few others they do not.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:15:00 - [18] /signed 100% The first part should be pretty easy to implement as well since it's already in use on the help channel. It should also help the lag since every local in Jita wouldnt have to update whenever 1 person out of 350 decides to jump in or out. It would make it harder to find ppl in 0.0, but the map is pretty good for that right now anyway. Nyxus Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:17:00 - [19] excellent idea! a shame it wont ever happen. why? ask the devs, only they know! all we might get is a compromise of your suggestion which neither suits us who want that change nor those who are against this change ... but still, this compromise will suit both of us player types in some way so we keep paying our subscriptions. Greetings Grim
Clytamnestra	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:19:00 - [20] I think it would be a good idea to chance Local so it shows the portraits when someone says something - like the Alliance chat. As someone pointed out, it makes covert ops viable, among other things - and it forces people to use the scanner if they want to know who's around. --

Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:20:00 - [21] Hey CCP, it's long past time to nerf Rells. Local is necessary. Without it, you give every advantage to the hunter and to the camper, not the defender and the traveler. (They must maintain vigelence 23/7, toy just when you move). You would rapidly depopulate 0.0 of anyone except the hardcore and pirate PvPers. If I travel in 0.0 wth no local, I cannot leave the gates. To do so would be to risk being blobbed or ganked by a force I could not see. Ditto, I would not bring a blob unless I was sure BEFOREHAND that I had the larger force. Give it up. Moerover, your "change" would, if anything, remove any need for scouts - EVER. Today, scouts are an invaluable part of any fleet or operation, and you would make them utterly useless compared to a BS pilot, sitting in a safe with the new skills. How DOES that help again? Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Nyxus /signed 100% The first part should be pretty easy to implement as well since it's already in use on the help channel. It should also help the lag since every local in Jita wouldnt have to update whenever 1 person out of 350 decides to jump in or out. It would make it harder to find ppl in 0.0, but the map is pretty good for that right now anyway. Nyxus Bull****. You know fullwell, as a 0.0 dweller, how useless and unreliable the map is these days. You cannot trust it to tell ANYTHING - it is entirely possible to move a fleet of BS across the map with NO BLOB. Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Galk	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:25:00 - [23] Not in empire space. Local channel often acts as a social experience, people meet and make friends in local channels. However, the tactical advantage of local channels in 0.0 is something i don't quite see as fitting the balance. ______ 862 buses later, galks back on the road again:)
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Cdr Foxbat The only things invisible in local should be Cov ops ships, the classic type - they are invisible in local while using a cloak and say 15secs (enough time to recloak after jumping tru. Actually, I think there should be a very simple rule: If you're cloaked, you're invisible to localchat. I'd absolutely go for that. -------------------------------------[04:04:04] Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk [04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw [07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Zachios Primos	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Zhainey Well at first I thought that was gonna be a whine but actually: what a cool idea, although personally I'd go with just a skill and no mod for system scanning, and another skill for telling ship type like you say. I dont think people should have to damage their set ups to scan local but it should require some effort and awareness beyone putting local channel in it's own box and staring at it. I think needing a mod is a great idea; supports the roll of a cloaker. if everyone can use it, it will ruin surprise attacks...figured 5 people in a system waiting. 10 min scanning interal, one scans every 2 mins. if a mod is needed a cloaker can fit it. have it as a mod taht can be activated while cloaked. that was fleet engagements are hindered (since most fleets have a c-ops) and if there is a solo miner in a .4 or less he ca lose a miner II and fit this, and still have some security great idea. signed __________________________________ Botox Bandits - Got shot? __________________________________
Ellandrian D'Amerathe	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:47:00 - [26] It is a double edged sword, the pirates however have no way of knowing you are in the system, they would have to scan for you to even know to start checking the asteroid fields and the complex for you. If you are prudent and running regular scans yourself, you could potentially be aware of them before they ever knew to start hunting for you.
Zachios Primos	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:50:00 - [27] Originally by: Maya Rkell Hey CCP, it's long past time to nerf Rells. Local is necessary. Without it, you give every advantage to the hunter and to the camper, not the defender and the traveler. (They must maintain vigelence 23/7, toy just when you move). You would rapidly depopulate 0.0 of anyone except the hardcore and pirate PvPers. If I travel in 0.0 wth no local, I cannot leave the gates. To do so would be to risk being blobbed or ganked by a force I could not see. Ditto, I would not bring a blob unless I was sure BEFOREHAND that I had the larger force. Give it up. Moerover, your "change" would, if anything, remove any need for scouts - EVER. Today, scouts are an invaluable part of any fleet or operation, and you would make them utterly useless compared to a BS pilot, sitting in a safe with the new skills. How DOES that help again? your right about scouts and that locations may depopulate. but what if, and this is a major what if, if the map returned to its original state (when it would update every 2 -5 mins) and local didn't show who was there. taht wahy you could see what was in the area but didn't know who - except through word of mouth and by people who happen to be in the area __________________________________ Botox Bandits - Got shot? __________________________________
Rells	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:53:00 - [28] Edited by: Rells on 05/01/2006 22:55:11 Originally by: Zhainey Well at first I thought that was gonna be a whine but actually: what a cool idea, although personally I'd go with just a skill and no mod for system scanning, and another skill for telling ship type like you say. I dont think people should have to damage their set ups to scan local but it should require some effort and awareness beyone putting local channel in it's own box and staring at it. The thing about the module is that without the module its just like it is today only more annoying in that everyone can scan but has to wait to do it. The module puts scanning into the hands of force recon or a pilot that has made a choice. Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari One thing that bothers me about this is that it makes it way too easy to for pirates to sneak up on people with zero warning. For example: -- snip -- Without localchat, I'm a complete sitting duck. Any time I'm in that complex, a pirate could just appear out of nowhere, with no warning at all, and catch me long before I have a chance to get out. CCP doesn't hold your hand, but they generally give you tools to protect yourself against things (can theft, pirating, corp theft, etc etc), and this is one of those tools. I find it hard to understand opinions like yours. The reason is that you act as if there would be no way to tell Snigg jumped in the system when in fact I provided a way. You simply have to train the skills, fit a module (or even perhaps without a module) and regularly scan the system. You would simply have to do this actively. If anything it would be easier for you since you wouldnt have to check the bio of the pilot. It seems there are a lot of alarmists in this thread and I encourage them to read the idea in full and think abotu it before posting. ◄ I must not fear. ◄ Fear is the mind-killer. ◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. ◄ -- Paul Atreides
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:58:00 - [29] The idea of training a skill to see local would be nothing but a timesink, as everybody would have to do it or else be crippled... And having to fit a module to see local doesn't sit right with me. A lot of people like to suggest "You should only be able to do XYZ with a specific module" and it just seems like a bad idea. -------------------------------------[04:04:04] Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk [04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw [07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Rells	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:58:00 - [30] Edited by: Rells on 05/01/2006 23:00:26 Originally by: Zachios Primos Originally by: Maya Rkell Hey CCP, it's long past time to nerf Rells. Local is necessary. Without it, you give every advantage to the hunter and to the camper, not the defender and the traveler. (They must maintain vigelence 23/7, toy just when you move). You would rapidly depopulate 0.0 of anyone except the hardcore and pirate PvPers. If I travel in 0.0 wth no local, I cannot leave the gates. To do so would be to risk being blobbed or ganked by a force I could not see. Ditto, I would not bring a blob unless I was sure BEFOREHAND that I had the larger force. Give it up. Moerover, your "change" would, if anything, remove any need for scouts - EVER. Today, scouts are an invaluable part of any fleet or operation, and you would make them utterly useless compared to a BS pilot, sitting in a safe with the new skills. How DOES that help again? your right about scouts and that locations may depopulate. but what if, and this is a major what if, if the map returned to its original state (when it would update every 2 -5 mins) and local didn't show who was there. taht wahy you could see what was in the area but didn't know who - except through word of mouth and by people who happen to be in the area Nah maya is just being alarmist. If anything it would increse the role of scouts and recon people. She forgets the fact that the other guys dont have local as it is today either. That is what many of the pirate worryers forget as well. The pirates will have as hard of a time locating you as you will locating them. They will have to actually scan the area to find their targets. It turns a passive, silly and hacked together process into an active and formalized one. Local was never meant to be a makeshift system scanner. Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari The idea of training a skill to see local would be nothing but a timesink, as everybody would have to do it or else be crippled... Life is full of choices. Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari And having to fit a module to see local doesn't sit right with me. A lot of people like to suggest "You should only be able to do XYZ with a specific module" and it just seems like a bad idea. Why? It specialized the roles of people. We could just remove everything from the game, count up guns and declare a winner. That wouldnt be fun. DIversity insipers diversified roles and experiences which constitutes replay value. One of Eve's main strengths is in its diversity. ◄ I must not fear. ◄ Fear is the mind-killer. ◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. ◄ -- Paul Atreides



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