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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
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Posted - 2013.09.08 22:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Simple, fail a margin order and you lose the ISK.
Consider it the same as losing pvp and your ship going boom.
You already do, so what's the problem?
Don't buy things for more than they're worth.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4066
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Posted - 2013.09.09 01:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:No Im saying the dude who put up the buy order, not just the one being scammed.
Scammer gets baited and killed, normal trader with no liquidity can consider it the same as roaming a wh.
This way the skill is useful, but like with everything there is risk.
Also because I want to here the scammers whine about how they lose billions on people falling for their scam and how they should get total profit from it.
The person who attempts to sell goods doesn't lose anything.
The person with the buy order loses money.
That is already the case.
What's the problem?
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4068
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Posted - 2013.09.10 07:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
William Bradley wrote:anyone perpetrating the margin trade scams would very quickly find themselves on the losing-end of heavy fines, lawsuits, and/or extensive jail sentences.
Except that scamming, extortion, most kinds of theft, fraud, cons, racketeering, and a whole host of other things that are crimes in the real world are perfectly legal in EVE.
As you said, EVE is a simulated universe. It has its own laws. Stop trying to apply laws from other universes to it.
Quote:it's flat-out broken.
The Failed Margin order costs the person who put it up ISK.
The person who tried to sell to it is left entirely whole. They have lost nothing.
What's broken?
You lost the money when you bought the overpriced goods.
EVE's not a happy fun place where the game protects you from your own stupidity, and it's not meant to be.
Quote:I sincerely hope that you end up the victim of a severe financial loss in the real world, so that you can feel the full weight of the ignorance of your statement.
Ooohm the "I can't distinguish between real life and fantasy and therefor wish real world harm on people who disagree with me on the internet" argument.
EVE is all about DIY Justice. The real world is not. One is a video game, the other is not.
Quote:No, you are wrong; the only reason the scam works is because there are no meaningful protection systems built into the market to deal with such blatant fraud.
Once again, Fraud is legal among capsuleers. Besides that, there's a whole second tab in the market window that, if clicked on, jumps up and down and shouts "This is a Margin scam" when appropriate.
Quote:and then the system could be left for it's very real and intended purpose
[Citation Needed]
Scams and Cons only work when someone allows their greed for "too good to be true" returns on their investment/time/effort/etc to prevent them from doing the (often dead simple) legwork to reveal the scam for what it's worth (in this case, you have to press a single button uncover the scam).
There's an old saying in the confidence business: "You can't con an honest mark."
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4072
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Posted - 2013.09.10 16:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:In IRL, there are severe penalties if you can't cover your margins...
In real life, trading on margin is using borrowed money to buy things. If I lose the borrowed money, the bank loses the money they loaned me.
In EVE, the margin trading skill has nothing to do with borrowing money. If I can't complete the escrow, the only thing that happens is that I'm out the broker fee without having a completed transaction to show for it. The seller is left entirely whole, having lost nothing due to the order failing.
And that's where that particular argument falls apart.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4074
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Posted - 2013.09.10 23:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
William Bradley wrote:Since practically none of you are posting anything constructive on the matter and are merely regurgitating the same "I want to be able to cheat anyone I please; it's not my fault, it's their fault" scumbag rhetoric as always, I'm not going to be bothering to respond to such vapid posts beyond this point.
"I can't respond to anything anyone's said, so I'll just dismiss it."
Quote:There is no logical or reasonable argument being presented from any of you for why the margin trading system should not be fixed; your only obvious interest is in keeping the system as it is so that you can continue to exploit other players for your own sick amusement.
"The only reason people are arguing contrary to my position is that they have an untoward interest in the outcome."
Quote:That EVE Online is a game is no excuse for you to treat the real Human beings on the other end of each character as inanimate objects for you to use and abuse at your leisure; such an attitude is deplorable, and speaks to your lack of integrity in the real world.
"Your actions in a game carry the same moral weight as actions in the real world, thus taking a Queen in Chess should have you hanged on a count of Regicide."
Quote:I sincerely hope CCP does do something to fix the margin trading system, if for nothing else to protect the undeserving victims of such scams from the greed and bile of sociopaths like you.
"Bad people in EVE are all Sociopaths in real life."
BINGO!
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4077
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Posted - 2013.09.11 03:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:So tell me why this margin trading skill should be introduced?
What precisely does it cover and allow to benefit the game?
It allows market traders without 10s of billions of spare ISK to usefully take part in slower markets.
It allows market traders without 10s of billions of ISK to make a reasonable income by trading.
It allows market traders without 10s of billions of ISK to compete.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4077
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Posted - 2013.09.11 05:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bigg Gun wrote:Hmm didn't read through all that crap, but here's how it could work: The seller receives a message: "The item you're trying to sell is being bought on margin and there's not enough money at the moment to cover it, would you like to sell it anyway and wait until the buyer deposits the sum?" If yes the item is being held in the market.
At the same time the buyer's account goes into the negative. He can't put new buy orders until he pays off the item.
Voila
Hoooray, Free, infinite ISK faucet.
Oh, and the "Margin Trading Skill" and "Trading on Margin" are two entirely unrelated things.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4097
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Posted - 2013.09.11 22:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:brinelan wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:You want less Scam? Improve the UI so can Identity scams faster (if your able to read of course). you mean like adding a tab that shows you the sales history of that item sorted by date, has low and high price and even a large colorful graph.. oh wait... I dont have problems with scaming it was just a small idea to speed up the process and give the player more information that matters.
The UI gives you the following information for every single item on the market:
The highest and lowest transaction prices for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
The median transaction price for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
The volume of transactions for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
A trailing 5d average transaction price for the last year (graph only)
A trailing 20d average transaction price for the last year (graph only)
A list of all open bids and asks with their remaining duration (and their last update time, by proxy) (table only)
What more information could you possibly want?
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4099
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Posted - 2013.09.11 22:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:RubyPorto wrote:The UI gives you the following information for every single item on the market:
The highest and lowest transaction prices for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
The median transaction price for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
The volume of transactions for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
A trailing 5d average transaction price for the last year (graph only)
A trailing 20d average transaction price for the last year (graph only)
A list of all open bids and asks with their remaining duration (and their last update time, by proxy) (table only)
What more information could you possibly want? Still dont get it? Its about >REDESIGN< the UI... 
Ok, what better way is there to present that information than your choice of a graph or table?
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4238
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Posted - 2013.10.08 05:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Decian Falx wrote:You return to Dodixie, manually set the sell price to 24m each (minimum required in escrow w/ margin trading 5, at buy price of 100m). You press sell, the escrow alone covers the 24m*5=120m.
If you try this currently, the order fails anyway: It *seems* to check whether the scammer has the full offered amount rather than the amount asked.
It does work like that. But you're not the first to think of that trick.
Buy order for 10, minimum 5, 100m/unit. Total order is 1b, escrow is 240m.
Sell 5 to the order at 48m/unit. Total order is now 500m, escrow is now 0 ISK.
Now start spamming your 80m/unit sales contract.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4242
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Posted - 2013.10.08 22:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Decian Falx wrote:I was not aware of this, however I don't see how that's really a problem:
Selling at 48m per unit should only use up the escrow for the units sold: selling at double the escrow value should draw half the funds from escrow and half from wallet. Escrow goes away first but on a per unit basis.
Worded another way, if I have a 5 unit buy order left, my minimum escrow is still 24% of the price of those 5 units. The remainder is due on sale or the order fails.
That's not how EVE's Escrow works. Escrow is a pool, not spread over each item, nor each order, simply per character/wallet. And they aren't selling to the order at double the escrow amount, they're selling 5 units at the full escrow amount (240m).
Moreover, changing it to work the way you suggest would do horrible things to the vast majority of traders who use the Margin Trade skill to allow them to compete in larger and slower markets without an unlimited bankroll.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4244
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Posted - 2013.10.09 16:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
James Akachi wrote:
No, it is placing a buy order that looks inviting by controlling the sell orders available, then lowering your wallet balance so when someone attempts to sell you the item, you cannot cover the purchase. With Margin Trading the "buyer" only needs to put a percentage of the buy order in escrow. The only problem I have is that it is then possible for the market to show buy orders that will fail, this makes no sense.
The ability to put up more buy orders than you can cover with your liquid balance is the entire point of the skill. And since a buy order failing cannot possibly hurt anyone (as they are left in the exact same position they were in before it failed), there's no reason to change this.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4248
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Posted - 2013.10.09 22:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
You are mistaken: The margin trade skill allows you to put up an order you do not have the funds to fully cover. At MT5, you need 24% of the necessary isk to create an order.
FYI: There is no such thing as a GUARANTEED buy order. They don't exist in this game. Only sell orders are guaranteed, so run your business using that knowledge and you'll be fine!
There are no guaranteed sell orders either. They can be taken down or completed by someone else at any time.
I've gotten the "there's no such order" error when buying stuff plenty of times.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4249
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Posted - 2013.10.09 23:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
James Akachi wrote:If they are taken down or completed then they go away. They don't stay up for the next several days, indicating a promise that cannot be fulfilled. Since this can apparently be done without having the money to begin with, I retract my suggestions, but this is a disconcerting system to say the least.
I was talking about the times they disappear between the time you click on them and the time you finish the sales window and click ok.
You just have to remember that no harm can possibly come from being left in the exact same position you were in before you tried selling to the buy order, and the buyer has lost their broker fee without a successful transaction to show for it. So why would the system be designed to needlessly charge buyers broker fees?
If there's an order that they can't afford right now, but nobody's trying to sell to them, what's the problem? When someone does try to sell to the order, the broker checks the escrow account and wallet, and if there are not sufficient funds, the exchange doesn't take place and the prospective seller is left entirely unharmed.
It's like going to a store, putting your items in the cart, and finding that you don't have the money to pay when you get to the register. Nobody gets in trouble because no contractual relationship has been in trouble and no transaction has taken place. You simply leave with what you had when you walked in, and the store retains the goods you were interested in.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4250
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Posted - 2013.10.10 00:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
James Akachi wrote:That is a flawed analogy. This is not a store transaction, it is an order which in some cases could never have been funded.
So is putting the goods in your cart when you don't have the money in your bank account (assuming you plan to pay with a debit card). You say "I want to buy this" the broker (cashier) calls your bank (or the computer does it) and the bank says "there isn't enough money in the account, don't complete the transaction." Where is the flaw in the analogy?
There's a reason why most businesses do not take special orders (or usually any order that cannot be filled immediately) without a deposit. They adapted to the fact that (barring a specific contract), an order is not binding until the goods have changed hands. Deposits allow them to recover any expenses they may have incurred by making the goods available to the customer.
Quote:A sell order cannot be put up and maintained without having the physical goods that are being sold. Nor can a contract of any sort function in this manner. I do not understand why anyone would expect a market system to list false buy orders.
Why should the broker check the escrow account unless someone's asking him to?
They aren't false buy orders. The skill allows you to tell the broker "I'll have the rest of the money available by the time someone asks to fill the order." Since you're the only one who can possibly be harmed by your own failure to do so, what's the problem?
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
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4252
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Posted - 2013.10.10 01:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
James Akachi wrote:In that the store didn't put up a notice saying you had the money to purchase those items when you entered the store. It's not at all comparable.
Find where in the market screen it guarantees that all buy orders are always fully supported. Just because you make an assumption doesn't make it a fact.
Quote:It's not about who it harms. It's about buy orders being on the market that cannot be fulfilled, the system knows this because it knows your wallet balance. This is completely antithetical to any market system I know of.
I just mentioned one. Ordering something from a store that doesn't require a deposit. Some of those orders may never be picked up because the person who ordered the item realized they didn't have the money. No goods change hands, no money changes hands, no problem.
Also, the market server doesn't do a database call of every wallet in the game every server tick. That would be insane. So it doesn't actually know every wallet balance in the sense you think it does. It checks the balance of a wallet when it makes sense to check it, that is to say when it needs to know the balance either because someone's checking the balance or trying to make a transaction. It's like an ATM; the machine doesn't know everyone's balance, but it can (and will) check if asked.
If you agree that the system as it is now cannot hurt anyone, why should it be changed?
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2013.10.10 06:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
James Akachi wrote:
Where in the market screen does it say buy orders can be false? I've been playing for 6 months and never even knew this was a possibility until a week ago through a third party website. Who would assume that an in-game market shows you orders that will fail? That's ludicrous.
I never claimed that it said that. I am only claiming that nowhere on the market screen does it guarantee that all orders will complete.
If you assume otherwise (as you are doing in trying to shift the burden onto me), that's on you.
Quote:I didn't mean to say it should; I was referring to the game knowing you don't have the funds when you place the order initially. Checking balance periodically to remove unfunded orders is one of the possible solutions I presented earlier before knowing orders could be placed without having the funds to begin with.
So you're saying that newer marketeers (y'know, the ones for whom the skill is most important) should have to work out in advance what order (generally largest to smallest) to place their orders in so that they can place all the orders they want before running into an arbitrary liquidity requirement?
Why should the balances be checked until someone tries to fill the order? Why should new marketeers be arbitrarily punished for momentary liquidity crises (you know, the type that new, inexperienced, relatively poor market traders are likely to have)?
Quote:It can, but only those who don't do their research. I agree that scam is a non-issue. It should be changed because it's misleading to list orders that will not go through, especially if they would not have even gone through when they were placed.
They are left with exactly what they had before they tried to sell to the order, so how are they harmed by the order failing? Are you claiming that there should be some sort of guarantee that there will be a customer ready to buy an overpriced item you bought just because you bought it at a ridiculous price?
Check out the Fiddle Game scam for the RL equivalent of the Margin scam. The scam is over when you buy the fiddle.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4254
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
James Akachi wrote:Do people really come into this game and not assume that orders displayed by the game's own market system for months would have had a possibility of being fulfilled at some point in their lifetime? I find that hard to believe.
So you're saying that you did make an assumption, it turned out to be wrong, and now you're angry.
Every game is different, and it behooves you to investigate investments before making them.
When I first saw one of these, I asked someone what the hell was up, and had it explained to me. It's pretty damn obvious that there's something fishy about a buy order for hundreds of millions of ISK more than the lowest sell order.
It doesn't take all that much clear thinking to just not buy the fiddle.
Quote:Should I need to conduct a thorough investigation of skills to make sure other critical game systems such as contracts or manufacturing job requirements aren't lying to me?
If you don't have Production Efficiency 5, the Material requirements a blueprint will show you will be wrong if the blueprint has extra materials that also appear in the normal materials.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4256
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 03:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
James Akachi wrote:Actually I have never seen this scam or had a buy order fail, I've repeatedly mentioned I have no problem with the scam's existence. That is irrelevant to my point, which is solely that the market should not display incorrect information.
What's incorrect about it? Someone has placed an order for those items and has promised to have the ISK by the time someone tries to sell to them. They've paid their fee to the broker, so why shouldn't the order remain until it completes, expires, or fails?
Quote:I am aware. Unlike the market issue, that is a bug.
I thought after 9 months it became a feature... 
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4273
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 01:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Yolo wrote:When a trade fails because you have no funds, the margin is transfered to the person trying to sell to you instead of returned to your wallet.
You can already do that. You just sell your item at ~25% of the listed price (the minimum escrow amount with MT5).
Of course, if they already did that...
Mnemonym wrote:The order should cease to exist BEFORE it gets the point of failure, if the wallet cant cover the order it has no validity.
Why? The only person hurt by a failed order is the one who posted the order. They lose their broker fees, and don't get a successful transaction.
Besides, the entire point of the skill is to allow you to have more buy orders than you can afford right now.
Quote:Orders should not fail, this is the issue.
Why not? Why should the order complete if the buyer doesn't have the money to pay for the goods?
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
4274
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 08:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Yolo wrote:Orders should not fail, this is the issue. Why not? Why should the order complete if the buyer doesn't have the money to pay for the goods? They want the margin trading scam to actually work.
If the order completes, it changes from a scam to an infinite, free ISK fountain.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
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