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Kanyed
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 07:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Now I know it might be the work of trolls or goons, however I have found a few threads here and there talking about the Economy in EvE about inflation and how it is the work of plex's and mission running that has increased all the prices in the market. I always believed that the players of EvE learned about economy as the game went on but every post I read made me more sad and angry. So if it was the work of a troll, my friend you have succeeded.
My first point I want to make and most important one IMO is the importance of mission runners and rat bounties. Missions and Ratting is the only way ISK is generated in EvE. Now some of you might go "rabble rabble you can do plex's, sell loot, market orders, hooblah and hoodnani" however, those methods do not "generate" ISK they merely transfer it from one account to another. Mission runners and ratters are the "tourist" of EvE. They bring in the extra ISK to add to the market for further trade. So a cry for "nerf missions because they inflated the market" is false.
This brings me to my second point. The true reason why the prices are so high are because of 4 things. 1) Hulkageddon. This even which is beautiful part of the game mechanics at work. So before the flames I'm not crying about Hulkageddon. They created an event that is completely legal within the game mechanics so awesome work guys. This event pushed up the prices of Hulks up from 60m-80m to 190m-220m which also created a fear of flying said ships in highsec for fear of losing a now 200m ship, and because of this event the flood of Tritanium into the market was lowered. 2) Drones didn't drop loot that could be reprocessed into ORE which again caused another shortage. Next 2 were done by CCP. Loot dropped in missions was reduced greatly, and also CCP made the manufacturing of T1 ships easier by removing some of the high end ORES needed and make it more expensive increasing the lower end ammounts. With all of this put together we get the high prices for everything in the market.
Thrid Point is that plex's do not hurt the economy. When plexs are exchanged for ISK they are exchanged from player to player. Again no ISK is generated only exchanged.
The one thing that controls the EvE market economy is the ORE Tritanium. Its importance is so high that it could be used as currency. The points I mentioned above are why the market prices are so high. Not because of mission runners or plexs or whatever. It started with Hulkageddon and ended with CCP.
I want to also make a strong point how hard this is on new players to the game. What you would spend on a normal T1 battleship fit is now about the same price for a T1 battlecruiser fit. Market prices hurts new players who can't gather enough of their own ISK.
Well I'm off to bed. I might make another post on the some idea changes for Missions, Mining, and manufacturing that might help creating more ISK sinks for the laster and more ISK for the Missions.
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Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
403
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 07:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
I am never sure about the "New players cannot make their own isk" laments. Sure, they cannot make it as fast as someone blitzing L4s in whatever is the cool ship to do that in these days.
A T1 BC is 40m, the T2 price for mods has barely moved recently, the meta mods likewise, if anything they have dropped, as the days of 16m Arbalest launchers are long gone.
Tritanium is around 4.50.
The price of ships moved due to the rebalancing, and I missed when in the last 4 years Hulks were 60m. Hulks as a T2 ship have been above 100m for a very long time, and now they aren't the ship you mine in anyway, but Mackageddon hasn't caught on as a name yet. Yes, many T1 ships are still below build cost, some are likely to stay there longer than others, this is due to the stockpiles.
I regularly make new alts and run them around with no funding from my main (Yes, I am stingy like that), and yes, it feels like ISK comes in slowly, but then, it felt the same way when I did it the first time round on my main, and trying to get isk for my first BC felt like it took for ever, and then it felt like the worlds most expensive ship. Trying to get isk so my mining char could move from Retriever to Hulk felt like it took forever, although it took just as long as skilling up for a T2 fitted hulk did.
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Conrad Makbure
Division One Security
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hell, bring back gun mining. CCP Soundwave is leaving, so lets forget about this "hate gun mining with a passion" stuff and bring it back. It was a lame move to remove it. |

voetius
L V B Industries STELLAR CONSTELLATION
84
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pretty much what Rhivre said above, most of the things that have increased recently are due rebalancing and other game changes.
In another thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=273303&p=4 someone wrote:
The basic problem with the whole inflation/deflation discussion in Eve is that no one can agree on what the terms mean in the context of the Eve economy. Personally I consider rising PLEX prices as a sign of deflation since it means the value of stuff in eve (both goods and isk) is declining in real value. Since he only thing in Eve that has been experiencing a long-term increase in price is PLEX it seems silly to call that inflation since by definition it means a general increase in prices over time and is not meant to apply to a single commodity.
Highlighted the important bit :) |

Myriad Blaze
69
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
My first point is that I believe that this belongs to the Market Discussions subsection of the forum.
Second: I wouldn't agree that prices are high. But since this statement only makes sense in some sort of comparison (as in high compared to what it used to be 2 years ago) I wonGÇÖt argue against your opinion (perhaps until you give such a comparison).
Furthermore you seem to ignore the rebalancing of mining barges (including added mineral requirements to build them). You also ignore the rebalancing of other ships, the market speculation that came with rebalancing, pre-building massive amounts of ships etc. Take the Armageddon for example and compare the cost to build it with the current market prices. You also ignore the effect of building super capitals and other things.
I also very much disagree with your opinion that current (or past) prices make it hard(er) for new players (and I was a new player myself not so long ago). Without a doubt there are things that could be done to make it easier for new players. But the few ideas you hinted at are most certainly not suited to this task.
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Tialano Utrigas
Critical Mass Inc. Nexus Fleet
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Insurance is the other ISK generator in the game.
Wheras Hulkageddon would probably be responsible for spikes in Hulk prices, it is not the reason they are where they are now. That would be down to the increase in build cost following various moon goo changes. The drone loot changes were a big slap in the face to industry as it reduced the supply or raw materials.
The price of items really comes down to some simple concepts. a) production cost (including transport of the finished product) b) Demand for the product c) Competition
So put that into some actual examples. - With a lot of T2 items, the cost of moon goo spiralled so that instantly reflected in the price. - The removal of drone alloys meant the supply of minerals dropped thus increasing their demand. This increased the supply cost for pretty much everything - Changes in battleship stats mean they became more viable for certain things and therefore their demand increased.
The production cost of T1 hulls still leaves me at a fork in the road. Some say its due to stockpiles, but I dont think they would have held for this long. I think (and this is an opinion) that its simply because the markets are flooding with them and because miners mine the minerals instead of buying them they can afford to drop the price to come under the competition. That and large alliances can probably buy ore from their miners for |

Kanyed
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
The prices have been the same for about a year and half if not 2 years. This is true. When EvE first came out battleships were insanely expensive, reason being at that time Lv4 missions gave around 200m to 500m so the prices were reflective of that. Then lv4 mission rewards and rat bounties were significantly reduced. and within time prices dropped to what they were for YEARS.
You asked for a comparison? Megathron used to be on a good sale 70m, normally around 90m. Now it is 150m roughly, when about a month or so ago or 2 months ago it was 200m. It wasn't the "balance". I also stated in the first post that the quantity of Tritanium required for increased greatly. Also stated that the flood of reprocessed minerals from mission loot and drone loot was removed. I stated a ton of actual facts that happened within the game.
Plex's raise and lower in price due to supply and demand. The demand for plexs is getting higher as more and more players are sustaining their accounts with plexs. However plex's do not generate ISK in the game so it does not cause any inflation or deflation. Think of mission runners and ratters as tourists. Certain cities and countries rely on tourists to bring money in from the outside so that they can circulate and stimulate more money within the economy. If the cities or countries just print money and flood it into the economy then that would cause an inflation. Mission runners and ratters add ISK to EvE. Now I am getting sleepy though and I will read up everything everyone has wrote and reply as best as I can. I will also try to evaluate on my points. |

AngelFood
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
You evidently don't know what you are talking about .. do you even know what a lvl 5 mission is and how much the rewards are? And how many so called elite null players are constantly ratting very large bounties. |

Kanyed
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 08:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
*sigh* Yes my original point in the beginning was to say that mission runners and ratters are not the cause for the inflation/deflation of EvE that so many people have suggested. I am stating a point that players who suggest a nerf to mission rewards and rat bounty's are falsely informed by how these 2 things affect the market and ISK value of the game. |

Rengerel en Distel
1875
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 10:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Citation needed that eve's inconomy is in an inflation.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3764
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 11:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kanyed wrote:This event pushed up the prices of Hulks up from 60m-80m to 190m-220m
No it didn't.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |

War Kitten
Panda McLegion xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
3231
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 11:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kanyed wrote: Certain cities and countries rely on tourists to bring money in from the outside so that they can circulate and stimulate more money within the economy. If the cities or countries just print money and flood it into the economy then that would cause an inflation. Mission runners and ratters add ISK to EvE.
The flaw (one anyway) in your logic is here.
Anything adding isk to the economy is printing money and adding to inflation. Mission runners are not tourists buying trinkets and services with foreign money and then leaving, they are printing isk and conjuring materials from nothing.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |

Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3369
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 11:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Citation needed that eve's inconomy is in an inflation.
DrEyoG wrote:Inflation (CPI excluding PLEX) fluctuated quite widely during 2012, from a monthly low of 4% deflation to a high of 8% inflation. However, taken as a whole, inflation was modest, and stayed within CCP's target range of +/- 1%.
Source: CSM Winter 2012 Summit minutes
. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
400
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 11:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Kanyed wrote: Certain cities and countries rely on tourists to bring money in from the outside so that they can circulate and stimulate more money within the economy. If the cities or countries just print money and flood it into the economy then that would cause an inflation. Mission runners and ratters add ISK to EvE. The flaw (one anyway) in your logic is here. Anything adding isk to the economy is printing money and adding to inflation. Mission runners are not tourists buying trinkets and services with foreign money and then leaving, they are printing isk and conjuring materials from nothing. While this is true, mission running and ratting (mostly in null sec) are isk faucets, this is how isk gets into the game. There are also isk faucets (market fees, insurance, sov bills, LP isk payments etc etc).
Only CCP knows how much is coming in and how much is going out of the system. I'm sure if they perceived an imbalance they would do something about it (soon tm)
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1203
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 11:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rhivre wrote: Hulks as a T2 ship have been above 100m for a very long time
3 years only and their price was so irregular you could find 60M hulks 6 jumps out of a trade hub and 90M in a known trade hub or inversely, was a bit "weird" indeed.
At that time Domi hull cost was about 37/42M Megas 60/70M hyperions around 100M already. So many changes since then, specially the growing number of speculators has grown exponentially and artificially raised prices of finished products but raw materials kept low.
If something to justify current ships/modules prices tritanium should be around 10isk unit, not 4.5, but then someone will come tell me something about offer/demand forgetting the main argument of this false economy like easy for little to no cost market manipulation, manipulation of demand etc.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

baltec1
Bat Country
7949
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 12:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
It was the year or so when CCP added incursions that the inflation went mad. Things such as a drake doubled in price.
We still have inflation but nowhere near as extreme as before. |

Hoo Yodaad
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 12:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kanyed wrote:Now I know it might be the work of trolls or goons, however I have found a few threads here and there talking about the Economy in EvE about inflation and how it is the work of plex's and mission running that has increased all the prices in the market. I always believed that the players of EvE learned about economy as the game went on but every post I read made me more sad and angry. So if it was the work of a troll, my friend you have succeeded.
My first point I want to make and most important one IMO is the importance of mission runners and rat bounties. Missions and Ratting is the only way ISK is generated in EvE. Now some of you might go "rabble rabble you can do plex's, sell loot, market orders, hooblah and hoodnani" however, those methods do not "generate" ISK they merely transfer it from one account to another. Mission runners and ratters are the "tourist" of EvE. They bring in the extra ISK to add to the market for further trade. So a cry for "nerf missions because they inflated the market" is false.
This brings me to my second point. The true reason why the prices are so high are because of 4 things. 1) Hulkageddon. This even which is beautiful part of the game mechanics at work. So before the flames I'm not crying about Hulkageddon. They created an event that is completely legal within the game mechanics so awesome work guys. This event pushed up the prices of Hulks up from 60m-80m to 190m-220m which also created a fear of flying said ships in highsec for fear of losing a now 200m ship, and because of this event the flood of Tritanium into the market was lowered. 2) Drones didn't drop loot that could be reprocessed into ORE which again caused another shortage. Next 2 were done by CCP. Loot dropped in missions was reduced greatly, and also CCP made the manufacturing of T1 ships easier by removing some of the high end ORES needed and make it more expensive increasing the lower end ammounts. With all of this put together we get the high prices for everything in the market.
Thrid Point is that plex's do not hurt the economy. When plexs are exchanged for ISK they are exchanged from player to player. Again no ISK is generated only exchanged.
The one thing that controls the EvE market economy is the ORE Tritanium. Its importance is so high that it could be used as currency. The points I mentioned above are why the market prices are so high. Not because of mission runners or plexs or whatever. It started with Hulkageddon and ended with CCP.
I want to also make a strong point how hard this is on new players to the game. What you would spend on a normal T1 battleship fit is now about the same price for a T1 battlecruiser fit. Market prices hurts new players who can't gather enough of their own ISK.
Well I'm off to bed. I might make another post on the some idea changes for Missions, Mining, and manufacturing that might help creating more ISK sinks for the laster and more ISK for the Missions.
So your argument is: 1) goons increased Hulk demand increasing their price (fyi demand changes are not inflation, also has nothing to do with mission running or plexes) 2) CCP reduced mineral supply shifting the supply curve and reducing "stuff" in game (maybe ok) 3) Plexes do nothing to the economy (actually they are deflationary because of taxes, etc)
Anyway, none of these things really address your point which is that mission running and plexes are not to blame for inflation, so let me help you.
Here is how they each effect inflation: Mission running contributes to inflation by generating currency, plexes do the opposite by eliminating currency (via taxes, etc.)
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ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
211

|
Posted - 2013.09.11 13:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Topic moved to Market Discussions.
ISD Cura Ursus Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Adunh Slavy
1241
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
Here we go again ...
Price inflation or deflation are terms that mean something specific. They mean changes in prices due to changes in the supply of money. That's it.
Prices of hulks going up because goons blew up a bunch of hulks is not the result of a change in the supply of money.
Prices going up because CCP changed the build requirements of ships with "Extra Materials" is not a result of a change in the supply of money.
Prices going up because CCP stopped drone gun mining is not a result of a change in the supply of money.
Prices going down because CCP added more moon minerals is not the result of a change in the money supply.
Prices going down because CCP added the noctis to the game is not the result of a change in the money supply.
Is there monetary inflation in Eve? Yes, it's huge. Is there price inflation in Eve? Yes but it is moderate. What accounts for the difference? ...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3586844#post3586844
Are there signs of inflation? Yep, but you have to first eliminate changes CCP has made, changes players have made, changes in player preferences.
Here are some simple examples and I'll let you figure them out,
Could the price of PLEX as it is now be the same if the money supply were the same as it was when PLEX were introduced?
Could the price of tech gotten as high as it did if the money supply were the same as it was in 2004?
Would the volatility of markets during patch changes be as drastic if the money supply were the same as it was in 2004? Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

Havoc Zealot
The Riot Formation Public Disorder.
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 16:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Inflation of around 3% is a good thing as it shows economic growth...most people in eve need to take a macro econ class. |

Adunh Slavy
1242
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 16:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Havoc Zealot wrote:Inflation of around 3% is a good thing as it shows economic growth...most people in eve need to take a macro econ class.
Inflation of around 3% shows inflation of around 3%. Sorry but the Keynesian cart before the horse is a lie. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

Havoc Zealot
The Riot Formation Public Disorder.
53
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 17:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mmmm and the invisible hand doesn't exist either... |

arabella blood
I Swear She Looked 18
135
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 17:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
God damn this inflation pandora box again...it should be bannable :)
I sometimes fail to see how the sinks we have are actually balancing the faucets, I think the faucets are "printing" way more ISK then the sinks drain...where is this ISK going?
Anyone has info on "Total ISK in game" by each year?
To OP: TRT can't be a used as a currency IMO - I cant store it and carry it around with me easely. Leave your jita world for once and try undocking sometimes, it will do you good :) Troll for hire. Cheap prices. |

Adunh Slavy
1243
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 18:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
arabella blood wrote: Anyone has info on "Total ISK in game" by each year?
The rate of 13,000% was thrown around once a couple of years ago. I'll try to dig up the refrence later when I have time and if someone reminds me.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

Adunh Slavy
1243
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 18:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Havoc Zealot wrote:Mmmm and the invisible hand doesn't exist either...
You are comparing a metaphor to a positivist claim made by Keynes.
Apples taste like oranges to you, do they? Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

arabella blood
I Swear She Looked 18
135
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:arabella blood wrote: Anyone has info on "Total ISK in game" by each year?
The rate of 13,000% was thrown around once a couple of years ago. I'll try to dig up the refrence later when I have time and if someone reminds me.
So if "ISK in GAME" increases by 13000% per year? and no out-of-control-price-risings?
Troll for hire. Cheap prices. |

Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
403
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
13,000 = 13.000 |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4327
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
arabella blood wrote:God damn this inflation pandora box again...it should be bannable :)
I sometimes fail to see how the sinks we have are actually balancing the faucets, I think the faucets are "printing" way more ISK then the sinks drain...where is this ISK going?
Has been explained by me and others several times. ISK sinks work together with the so called "wallets segregation".
Artificial money velocity obstacles allow for very inefficient wealth transfers on the macro scale.
Some practical examples: ISK is so easily kept "stuck" to the players (always travels with you, can't be destroyed...) while so dangerous to do non NPC activities with. People love to stack ISK as well, the profile of those people is exactly the profile of those who like and are able to make lots of money. Those who like to spend the most (PvPers) are often barely keeping up with the costs, instead. So those able to inject tons of ISK tend to like to keep it, those who would not want to keep it are not good at making lots of it (I am talking of macro scale, of course you'll know all sorts of exceptions to that).
Other example: many join and many quit. New players start poor, quitters have their savings and those savings get all frozen.
Other example: a trillionaire has issues both at investing (glass ceiling on the revenues) and at finding where to invest. Besides the obvious scams there are many unfavorable businesses, even on MD. You can find an handful of > 5% revenue bonds etc. and they are unsecured so ISK is at great risk and so the rich keep it. They will find even large-ish bonds but those are 2% revenue that is below EvE's 2012 average inflation. So in the end even if they venture and invest in a 100B bond at 2%, money is not really going far from their wallets nor increasing a lot at all. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Adunh Slavy
1244
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 20:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
arabella blood wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:arabella blood wrote: Anyone has info on "Total ISK in game" by each year?
The rate of 13,000% was thrown around once a couple of years ago. I'll try to dig up the refrence later when I have time and if someone reminds me. So if "ISK in GAME" increases by 13000% per year? and no out-of-control-price-risings?
I need to dig up the refrences to find what the period was. Let me hunt ....
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |

Kanyed
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 20:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
Just to clarify some things. I apologize ahead of time for anyone who thinks I am trying to bring up the inflation/deflation arguement. I also understand that Tritanium as a currency won't work because of the simple fact this is a game and the quantities of Tritanium needed to be used as currency would need Freighter sized cargoholds to be effective. I understand all this.
What I was saying is that the points I mentioned are the real reason for any extreme changes in the market value. Hulkageddon increased the prices of Hulks by causing a extreme demand for it. Anyone who knew what was going on stock piled on hulks and resold them for 100 to 200% profit. Its the best mining ship in the game and was the staple for anyone doing afk mining or mining ops. So it was the increase demand that pushed the value of it higher not because of changes to any of the ships.
The balance changes to the ships also did not cause any rise or fall in the prices for the overall ships, as the prices went up and up as Tritanium and other mineral prices went up. Tritanium was the largest factor in this for the sole purpose that the amount needed for T1 ships was increased, while the flood into the market through reprocessed means from mission loot or drones were squashed. I don't know if anyone noticed but maybe a small few did. After the Hulkageddon event when Hulks went up to around 200m, high sec asteriods were plentiful for a good stretch.
Its just cause and effect. I made a TON of money on Hulks and on hoarding minerals. I wasn't the only one either. A few friends from different corporations and alliances also noticed what was going to happen in the market and did the same thing. Time for food. Hope I made coherent sentences, I was in the hurry to write this while I made food.
ALSO I'VE UNDOCKED FROM JITA BEFORE!!1!!11111!11111 Rawr just didn't go outside the system is all lololol |
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