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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Dograzor
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
36
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Posted - 2013.09.17 22:05:00 -
[301] - Quote
A couple thoughts on the ToS as feedback for CCP:
The first part I wholeheartedly agree on, as players we have no business impersonating CCP or ISD's. I don't want to touch that.
The second part, it is somewhat tricky. As a whole, I would say no, but this sentence combines many elements. For instance:
Impersonating players - I interpret that as impersonating unique individuals Impersonating a group of players - this can be interpreted as corporations and alliances, but also social based groups that have no clear membership such as e.g. bombers bar, incursion running groups, etc. Impersonating characters or NPC enitites - this could mean factions such as Amarr, Gallente or Sansha, Guristas etc.
The problem lies with the fact that each of the above groups have huge differences on its own.
For example, the rule that you cannot impersonate or represent NPC groups can be interpreted that role playing is not allowed, e.g. no pirates impersonating Guristas, or faction warfare groups representing one of the four factions. Not even to mention CVA representing the Amarr Empire in Provi and Ushra'Khan representing the Minmatar Empire.
I know it sounds far fetched, but if you literally interpret the ToS it does forbid the above. And for those who have been in New Eden for a long time, role playing has been a huge backbone driving New Eden.
Now for impersonating groups of players, this slides to a more grey area, as many EVE capsuleers are aware of the old school "join Goonswarm" scams etc. I personally have nothing against these scams, but opinions might differ here. Still, my belief is that not allowing people to imitate or falsely represent a group of players creates the possibility to severely limit metagaming, and metagaming is the driving force behind Eve Online fame.
Impersonating a unique individual is something I frown upon. This might be a case where I would say that CCP involvement would be desired as it harms one specific person and not a social construct that represents players.
My feedback to CCP would be to scrap their addendum as a whole or be very, very specific in rewriting it while keeping an eye on not hurting the sandbox. |
Gorgoth24
Sickology
45
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Posted - 2013.09.17 22:16:00 -
[302] - Quote
I've waited to make my own response to this thread until I could get some context from more involved players, including articles on TMC and Jester's Trek. While I always take such sources with a grain of salt, I was linked to this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=54 by the articles.
My response? Absolute bewilderment. Utter Hatred. WHAT THE ACTUAL ****.
But, to be constructive, the TOS should make it a punishable offense to impersonate an EVE Online official (employee/volunteer) or interfere with official EVE Online media with the intention of personal profit, etc. with the punishment decided on a case by case basis.
The impersonation of a character by imitating their name (Chr1bba) should be a punishable offense with the punishment BE LIMITED TO RENAMING.
Impersonation in other manners, such as claiming to be someone's alt, should be expressly ALLOWED (as this is and always has been part of the very fabric of EVE culture).
Just my two cents, Gorgoth24 |
Aylleen
Die Hard Carebears
56
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Posted - 2013.09.18 00:38:00 -
[303] - Quote
The ToS update is insane and makes completely no sense. There you have my feedback.
I am Aylleen, and I approve this message. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
896
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Posted - 2013.09.18 01:37:00 -
[304] - Quote
Quote:The basic challenge seems to be how to give players more actions against scammers, even if they are sitting in jita stations and are therefore unreachable.
So are trading alts. And more or less, industrial magnates too. Heck, for that matter, so are Alliance leaders, who have no real reason or motive to take the field themselves.
So lots of things are like that.
The fact of the matter is that players don't need any more actions to take against scammers except for "Stop being stupid". But that's an answer that might hurt precious little feelings, hence all the whining about scams that almost constantly clogs GD.
The only action that would need to be taken is against those who abuse the UI with names like Chrlbba or The Mlttani, or other stupid crap like that. That's about the only thing I would in good conscience (yes, I do have one) legitimately call impersonation.
As for the rest of it, whatever happened to HTFU? Whatever happened to learning from mistakes, instead of crying to GMs to reimburse your loss and ban the mean, nasty people who tricked you?
Whatever happened to being an adult? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1503
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Posted - 2013.09.18 03:55:00 -
[305] - Quote
Gorgoth24 wrote:The impersonation of a character by imitating their name (Chr1bba) should be a punishable offense with the punishment BE LIMITED TO RENAMING. There needs to be actual disincentive to start breaking the rules
Gecko Runner Hareka wrote: Nah, the news was on TMC on the ninth of this month. That link is an opinion article. |
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1508
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Posted - 2013.09.18 06:03:00 -
[306] - Quote
I stopped paying attention for a second. Have they actually changed anything back, or did they just lock us into a corner so our dissatisfaction wouldn't be noticed until the next time they nerf my friends and peers? Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe WAFFLES.
4185
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Posted - 2013.09.18 06:12:00 -
[307] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:I stopped paying attention for a second. Have they actually changed anything back, or did they just lock us into a corner so our dissatisfaction wouldn't be noticed until the next time they nerf my friends and peers?
Do you really have to ask? "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
xBumper Baby
Joss Ackland's Spunky Backpackers
11
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Posted - 2013.09.18 09:07:00 -
[308] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Font manipulation is a psychological effect. Humans by default tend to skim over letters and "assume" what they are reading is correct (which is why grammatical errors stand out so vividly).
4 and A are very much similar when reading a wall of text, although when standing alone they are obviously different.
Scams and convincers that utilize those differences exploit that human weakness; it's how they work.
'defualt'; 'Tend to skim'; 'assume'
All failures on the part of the scammed and difficult to sympathise with. Just as foolish and easily avoidable as 'afk' and 'autopilot'.
Try replacing them with 'alertness'; 'read carfully' and 'think critically'.
Then peeps will be ok. |
xBumper Baby
Joss Ackland's Spunky Backpackers
11
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Posted - 2013.09.18 09:10:00 -
[309] - Quote
Isis Dea wrote:xBumper Baby wrote:If scamming is a serious problem for noob retention, I do like the idea of putting it into the tutorial. Get them to RP a few common scams, then let Aurora scam them! Surely they can't stay mad at Aurora!? On page 2, I put this amongst a list of recommended changes.
Yes, i knew someone had wrote it somewhere in the thread. You can have my hauler full of strippers etc. |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
411
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Posted - 2013.09.18 13:42:00 -
[310] - Quote
Timeline on a resolution CCP?
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
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Beness
Vojtech Fekete
7
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Posted - 2013.09.18 16:16:00 -
[311] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:Timeline on a resolution CCP?
Soon (tm).
Oh wait, is that bannable, 'cause I'm mimicking CCP? I hope that no-one feels that I'm impersonating them, by answering a question posed to them with an answer that is typically given by them...
Which is the fundamental issue - the language leaves it up to the wronged party to present the situation to an opaque enforcement body. Optimally, we'd have clear rules that excluded only technical exploits (Chrlbba) and pretending to be CCP. Worse, but tolerable, would be the "existing" enforcement made transparent, such that the community could review and understand precedent. |
Rekkr Nordgard
The Ardency of Faith
11
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Posted - 2013.09.18 21:51:00 -
[312] - Quote
So what's it been, like 5 days now, since the last CCP response to this? Absolutely LOVE how responsive they're being to the community.
/sarcasm
Seriously, how long could it possibly take to undo this idiotic mistake? It certainly didn't take them any time at all to make an integral part of Eve a bannable offense. Hire me and I'll have that ******** sentence out of the ToS before you can say crtl+x, I'll even do it for free. |
Zappity
Kurved Space
439
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Posted - 2013.09.19 04:13:00 -
[313] - Quote
I don't scam but I want other people to be able to in whatever manner they choose. Without diverse risks the sandbox loses all meaning. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Isbariya
Thundercats The Initiative.
54
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Posted - 2013.09.19 05:27:00 -
[314] - Quote
Imho the only one beeing able to file a petition on someone impersonating one of his characters should be the impersonated himself. There should not be any reimbursement for the scammed player as he was too lazy to check and therefore it was his fault. The impersonated char has nothing to do with all of this and can't defend himself as it was already stated most of the scammers almost never come out of the safety of a station. |
Gecko Runner Hareka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.09.19 11:28:00 -
[315] - Quote
The ToS offer us an opportunity to discuss how we optimally want CCP to handle such clever hacks of the system in the future... Now for the ToS situation and how it should have developed: Clever scam involving messing with CCP info ressources triggers the following responses:
- CCP publishes the exploit in a big story with player/scammer interviews etc <- THAT'S positive publicity!
- If the method is problematic, then the transfer has to be undone (in this case mixing out of game with in-game approaches)
- All parties get a pat on the back in the form of a (limited) hauler full with quafe and dancers for finding the exploit/falling victim as a proof of concept
- The exploit is fixed in RL (wiki editing tools - proofed stable vs latest versions for example)
- ...and in-game through game mechanics
- As a LAST step ToS etc are changed to reflect the new situation
If we break down the scammers approach, two situations have to be "clarified" in the new ToS:
* don't use ccp as a cover for your scams * don't mix official ccp rl ressources with in-game roleplay * all the other rl ressources that are not ccp controlled are fine to mess with: have fun with the meta game
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Desivo Delta Visseroff
Cedar Knolls Research STEEL BROTHERHOOD
26
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Posted - 2013.09.19 14:53:00 -
[316] - Quote
Can we get an answer? something? I would post this here as well, but I feel everything is becoming bannable in an effort to make New Eden a softer place. |
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GM Grimmi
Game Masters C C P Alliance
17
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Posted - 2013.09.19 15:46:00 -
[317] - Quote
Hello everyone,
I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.
You cannot impersonate yourself.
Telling others that youGÇÖre an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.
With the possible exception of using your own alt to mimic your character using spelling trickery in order to trick people into accepting duels with a high skill monster when they thought they were going to duel with puny noob or something like that, and possibly some extreme weird and outlandish edge case we havenGÇÖt thought of yet GÇô you cannot impersonate yourself. The example above would not even be self-impersonation as much as it would just be a simple spelling trickery type of deal where it doesnGÇÖt really matter who owns the characters in question.
Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.
Thanks for reading.
Lead GM Grimmi
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Gecko Runner Hareka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2013.09.19 15:56:00 -
[318] - Quote
GM Grimmi wrote:
Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.
Thanks for reading.
Lead GM Grimmi
thx. 4 posting - that did clear up some misconceptions. cheers, g |
Cindare
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
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Posted - 2013.09.19 15:57:00 -
[319] - Quote
It's good to know that the most circular and pedantic consequences of this change have been addressed.
If your fellows would be so kind as to revert the overly ambiguous and patently unnecessary change, that would be most appreciated. |
Kais Fiddler
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.09.19 15:58:00 -
[320] - Quote
Good. |
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RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe WAFFLES.
4192
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Posted - 2013.09.19 15:59:00 -
[321] - Quote
GM Grimmi wrote:Hello everyone,
I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.
You cannot impersonate yourself.
Telling others that youGÇÖre an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.
So you've decided to put yourself in the position of confirming who owns what alts. That's cool.
If someone scams me based on claiming they're an alt of someone else, and I petition it, if they don't get banned, I know they're actually the alt, and the GMs have just given out private information.
GM Karidor wasn't wrong in ruling that you can't change your policy on "impersonation" based on who owns the character. The problem lies in the policy itself. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
404
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:01:00 -
[322] - Quote
GM Grimmi wrote:You cannot impersonate yourself.
This one line sounds like 'This is against the TOS', rather than 'It is impossible to do because you are you.'
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Thomas Gilmour
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2013.09.19 16:03:00 -
[323] - Quote
GM Grimmi wrote:Hello everyone,
I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.
You cannot impersonate yourself.
Telling others that youGÇÖre an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.
With the possible exception of using your own alt to mimic your character using spelling trickery in order to trick people into accepting duels with a high skill monster when they thought they were going to duel with puny noob or something like that, and possibly some extreme weird and outlandish edge case we havenGÇÖt thought of yet GÇô you cannot impersonate yourself. The example above would not even be self-impersonation as much as it would just be a simple spelling trickery type of deal where it doesnGÇÖt really matter who owns the characters in question.
Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.
Thanks for reading.
Lead GM Grimmi
As self-contradicting as ever, Good Job CCP. |
digi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
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Posted - 2013.09.19 16:03:00 -
[324] - Quote
I'm schizophrenic and so am I. |
mynna
GFIB Offshore Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.09.19 16:09:00 -
[325] - Quote
GM Grimmi wrote:Hello everyone,
I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.
You cannot impersonate yourself.
Telling others that youGÇÖre an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.
With the possible exception of using your own alt to mimic your character using spelling trickery in order to trick people into accepting duels with a high skill monster when they thought they were going to duel with puny noob or something like that, and possibly some extreme weird and outlandish edge case we havenGÇÖt thought of yet GÇô you cannot impersonate yourself. The example above would not even be self-impersonation as much as it would just be a simple spelling trickery type of deal where it doesnGÇÖt really matter who owns the characters in question.
Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.
Thanks for reading.
Lead GM Grimmi
I am so glad to hear this. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4750
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Posted - 2013.09.19 16:10:00 -
[326] - Quote
I am glad this "misunderstanding" that apparently sprung wholly formed from the playerbase and was not at all reading the words GMs wrote on these forums has been "clarified" and certainly not "I guess we should reverse that utterly insane policy but avoid taking responsibility for it". |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1849
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Posted - 2013.09.19 16:10:00 -
[327] - Quote
mynna wrote:GM Grimmi wrote:Hello everyone,
I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.
You cannot impersonate yourself.
Telling others that youGÇÖre an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.
With the possible exception of using your own alt to mimic your character using spelling trickery in order to trick people into accepting duels with a high skill monster when they thought they were going to duel with puny noob or something like that, and possibly some extreme weird and outlandish edge case we havenGÇÖt thought of yet GÇô you cannot impersonate yourself. The example above would not even be self-impersonation as much as it would just be a simple spelling trickery type of deal where it doesnGÇÖt really matter who owns the characters in question.
Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.
Thanks for reading.
Lead GM Grimmi
I am so glad to hear this.
+1, person who totally is in fact me.
Now, about the rest of the changes...
Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Trebor Deahdoow
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.09.19 16:13:00 -
[328] - Quote
I for one welcome this clarification. "I am not the CSM chairman you're looking for..." |
FOl2TY8
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
65
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Posted - 2013.09.19 16:13:00 -
[329] - Quote
WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN!?!?! |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1125
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Posted - 2013.09.19 16:16:00 -
[330] - Quote
Good post! Though I wish you had left out the entire second part as that is another wonderland rabbit hole. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal - Representing Goonswarm Federation, Goonwaffe, CFC Finance, Greater Economic Co-Prosperity Sphere, CFC Rental Program, Burn Jita, CFC Supply, and who knows what else.-á Vile Rat: You'e the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
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