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Armagedon Tired	Posted - 2006.01.12 09:43:00 - [31] Edited by: Armagedon Tired on 12/01/2006 10:01:03 No the Giant secure container will not fit in your Osprey's hold. You will need an industrial ship to place the secure containor where you want it as giant ones take up 3000m3 in your hold and you will also need it to collect the ore and seliver it to the station. Anchoring the can it allows you to lock it's position in space and by seting a password you can prevent un aauthorised access. As for the cap use I do not have a problem continuously mining with all 3 Miner 2's in my Osprey, I can't remember exactly but I think one of the skills (mining or possibly one of the ship's bonuses) reduces the cap need per level (can anyone confirm/elaborate on this please)
Suhadi	Posted - 2006.01.12 10:16:00 - [32] Not aware of any skills that reduce mining laser cap use, some mining ships have this bonus I believe, Bantam is one iirc which makes it a good choice for newbies I guess. The Osprey doesn't have this bonus, guess they expect you to have your cap skills up by then. -------------------------------------------------- - Suhadi
Darkdashing	Posted - 2006.01.12 10:21:00 - [33] Originally by: Armagedon Tired Edited by: Armagedon Tired on 12/01/2006 10:01:03 No the Giant secure container will not fit in your Osprey's hold. You will need an industrial ship to place the secure containor where you want it as giant ones take up 3000m3 in your hold and you will also need it to collect the ore and seliver it to the station. Anchoring the can it allows you to lock it's position in space and by seting a password you can prevent un aauthorised access. As for the cap use I do not have a problem continuously mining with all 3 Miner 2's in my Osprey, I can't remember exactly but I think one of the skills (mining or possibly one of the ship's bonuses) reduces the cap need per level (can anyone confirm/elaborate on this please) there are skills to reduce cap need for turrets but it says weapons only. There is beauty in tension....
Buxaroo	Posted - 2006.01.12 12:01:00 - [34] LOL I can't believe you guys mine with only 3 miner II's.....that takes forever. Granted, not everyone can afford a Brutix, especially starting out but it's a great ship to mine in. Like I said 7 Miner II, 3 co-processors, 3 cap chargers (was 4 but I prefer a AB) and 2 cargo expanders and you got a nice mining setup. Oh and to the guy talking about ore units, you need to tell us what you are mining. When calculating how much ore it doesnt really tell us much how many units but how much cubic meters. For instance I can mine 28 m3 of Krokite in a minute but around 280 of Hemorphite. Not to mention Veldspar . . . "No matter where you go, there you are."
Butter Dog	Posted - 2006.01.12 12:38:00 - [35] Originally by: Suhadi Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 11/01/2006 17:32:05 And whoever said jetcan mining is an 'exploit' clearly does not know what they are even talking about. I'd like to see you petition it as an exploit next time you see them doing it - and see what kind of response you get. I already explained my meaning, reading comprehension ftw. The word 'exploit' has a universally accepted meaning in EVE. If you choose to adopt some other meaning of the word, then that is your problem and your problem alone. The rest of us will carry on jetcan mining knowing full well it is not an 'exploit' using any reasonable definition of the word.
Butter Dog	Posted - 2006.01.12 12:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Buxaroo LOL I can't believe you guys mine with only 3 miner II's.....that takes forever. Granted, not everyone can afford a Brutix, especially starting out but it's a great ship to mine in. Like I said 7 Miner II, 3 co-processors, 3 cap chargers (was 4 but I prefer a AB) and 2 cargo expanders and you got a nice mining setup. Oh and to the guy talking about ore units, you need to tell us what you are mining. When calculating how much ore it doesnt really tell us much how many units but how much cubic meters. For instance I can mine 28 m3 of Krokite in a minute but around 280 of Hemorphite. Not to mention Veldspar The Osprey has a fantastic mining bonus, so he will still be pulling in a lot of ore with those three mining lasers. Almost as much as your brutix with top-end skills. Regarding m3's of ore... Your mining lasers will always pull in the same amount of cubic metres (m3) of ANY ore. The number of units differ due to the different sizes per unit, but not the actual m3. This is always the same and how anyone will measure the effectiveness of their mining. So if you mine 28m3 of Crokite in an hour, you will mine 28m3 of Hemorphite in the same time period, or indeed any other ore.
Suhadi	Posted - 2006.01.12 13:01:00 - [37] Edited by: Suhadi on 12/01/2006 13:02:43 Originally by: Butter Dog The word 'exploit' has a universally accepted meaning in EVE. If you choose to adopt some other meaning of the word, then that is your problem and your problem alone. The rest of us will carry on jetcan mining knowing full well it is not an 'exploit' using any reasonable definition of the word. Will GMs take direct action against you for jetcan mining? No. Does this mean it isn't an exploit? Only if you consider exploits to only be things that the GMs will take direct action against you for. If it was an exploit, why would the GMs not take action against you? Because there is a far more interesting and novel deterrent, ie. the possibility of having your ore stolen. What makes it an exploit though? It's an exploit by definition, as it is exploiting the game mechanics in a way which was never intended, to the benefit of the player. I'm not aware of any other definition of the word "exploit". -------------------------------------------------- - Suhadi
Butter Dog	Posted - 2006.01.12 13:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Suhadi Edited by: Suhadi on 12/01/2006 13:02:43 Originally by: Butter Dog The word 'exploit' has a universally accepted meaning in EVE. If you choose to adopt some other meaning of the word, then that is your problem and your problem alone. The rest of us will carry on jetcan mining knowing full well it is not an 'exploit' using any reasonable definition of the word. Will GMs take direct action against you for jetcan mining? No. Does this mean it isn't an exploit? Only if you consider exploits to only be things that the GMs will take direct action against you for. If it was an exploit, why would the GMs not take action against you? Because there is a far more interesting and novel deterrent, ie. the possibility of having your ore stolen. What makes it an exploit though? It's an exploit by definition, as it is exploiting the game mechanics in a way which was never intended, to the benefit of the player. I'm not aware of any other definition of the word "exploit". But it isnt an exploit. You are not using the game mechanics to gain an unfair advantage over other players. The introduction of can-flagging in RMR ended that arguement once and for all. Its Risk V's Reward - like almost anything else in this game.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.01.12 13:40:00 - [39] Edited by: Corunna ElMan on 12/01/2006 13:40:33 Originally by: Suhadi Or you could just find something worthwhile to say, instead of trolling. Considering your original post, I think you should take your own advice before dispensing it to others. It sounds like you're annoyed because someone has embarrassed you by pointing out the vast and obvious flaws in your ridiculous original assertion. If you're such a champion of worthwhile posting, why not take a few more minutes to think before you make claims you can't support?
Suhadi	Posted - 2006.01.12 14:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Corunna ElMan Edited by: Corunna ElMan on 12/01/2006 13:40:33 Considering your original post, I think you should take your own advice before dispensing it to others. Really? Because having reread my original post it seems like I was warning a new player of the pitfalls of jetcan mining that the other 'helpful' replies had completely neglected to mention. It occurred to me at the time that a fair amount of new players probably receive the same advice and subsequently quit the game the first time several hours of their work is blown away by a thief. Quote: It sounds like you're annoyed because someone has embarrassed you by pointing out the vast and obvious flaws in your ridiculous original assertion. If you're such a champion of worthwhile posting, why not take a few more minutes to think before you make claims you can't support? Claims I can't support? I'd say I've made an admirable effort in defending my position. The only person who need be embarrassed here is you, as you have yet to contribute anything meaningful to the discussion. Originally by: Butter Dog But it isnt an exploit. You are not using the game mechanics to gain an unfair advantage over other players. Hmm, well I don't see that the unfair advantage has to be over another player tbh. As for the risk vs reward though, I agree completely, which is why I'm not jumping up and down demanding that jetcan miners be banned. -------------------------------------------------- - Suhadi
Darkdashing	Posted - 2006.01.12 14:33:00 - [41] dont' worry, I never considered jet can mining as negative, wrong, or exploiting--it's common knowledge that it is the major way to mine. I wanted some advice not trolling my post, so please dont discuss game ethics in my post. btw, the osprey has a gigantic bonus to mining that is very sweet 20% per level of cruiser training, im at 3 now that's 60% bonus, and i have mining to lv 3 thats 15% more...I'm training those two so I figure it will be as good as a brutix There is beauty in tension....
Buxaroo	Posted - 2006.01.12 14:44:00 - [42] Originally by: Butter Dog Regarding m3's of ore... Your mining lasers will always pull in the same amount of cubic metres (m3) of ANY ore. The number of units differ due to the different sizes per unit, but not the actual m3. This is always the same and how anyone will measure the effectiveness of their mining. So if you mine 28m3 of Crokite in an hour, you will mine 28m3 of Hemorphite in the same time period, or indeed any other ore. Yes that's pretty much what I meant. I meant that that guy said he pulls in 6000 units or some such every 15 minutes. Units of what is what I ask. If he meant m3 as units then that is ok, if he means 6000 units of Hemorphite then that sounds crazy. . . . "No matter where you go, there you are."
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.01.13 02:40:00 - [43] Originally by: Suhadi Claims I can't support? I'd say I've made an admirable effort in defending my position. If by "admirable" you really mean "weak", then you've done... admirably. yo very specifically said "Ignoring the fact that it is basically exploiting game mechanics" and I quite correctly pointed out that this is not, in fact, a fact, but rather simply *your opinion*. Given that your fundamental premise is wrong, the rest of your argument becomes worthless. I also notice that you have avoided addressing my specific example of Escrow, another game mechanic that has been utilized in an unintended fashion (much to the praise of the Devs). Is that also an "exploit", or will you need to backpedal and revise your definition yet again? If I can discourage people like you from spreading misinformation, I've contributed far more than your knee-jerk opinions ever will.
Jacyro	Posted - 2006.01.13 11:04:00 - [44] Originally by: Buxaroo LOL I can't believe you guys mine with only 3 miner II's.....that takes forever. Granted, not everyone can afford a Brutix, especially starting out but it's a great ship to mine in. Like I said 7 Miner II, 3 co-processors, 3 cap chargers (was 4 but I prefer a AB) and 2 cargo expanders and you got a nice mining setup. Oh and to the guy talking about ore units, you need to tell us what you are mining. When calculating how much ore it doesnt really tell us much how many units but how much cubic meters. For instance I can mine 28 m3 of Krokite in a minute but around 280 of Hemorphite. Not to mention Veldspar 3 miner IIs on an Osprey with Caldari Cruiser 5 is the same as having 6 miner IIs on any other ship due to the Osprey's bonus of 20% additional mining yield per laser per creuiser level. So, it is not as bad as it seems. Add to that Mining lvl 5 and AstroG lvl 5 and you may need so cargo expanders on that Osprey. With the right support skills you can leave those 3 miner IIs running non-stop and just put it all into a jetcan. Also, you can fit a missile launcher and 2 med drones (was 4 before RMR) for protection. I mine in my Osprey in systems below 0.5 because I won't take my barge into low sec and I am not interested in training up to Gallente BS skill. I just see a lot of people in this thread saying that an Osprey is not a good mining ship when it is actually probably the best cruiser level mining ship in the game.
Mathir	Posted - 2006.01.13 14:36:00 - [45] And if you happen to have trained up Minmatar cruisers instead, the Scythe also has a mining bonus. Corporate on my uniform, Freelancer in my heart Fly Free, Live Free
Simon Jax	Posted - 2006.01.13 17:59:00 - [46] The Vexor can be an even better mining Cruiser than the Osprey, though it takes more skill points. The Vexor gives a 10% bonus to mining drone yield per Cruiser level, and thereÆs a 5% bonus to drone yield per mining drone yield. With Mining, Mining Drone, Drone, and Cruiser all to lvl V you can get 518.75 units per cycle out of a Vexor using 4x Miner IIÆs and 5x Mining Drone IIÆs. You can get 418.75 units per cycle using 4x Miner IÆs and 5x Mining Drone IIÆs as well (taking possible cpu restriction into account). Note û Miner IÆs + Drone IÆs = 331.25. With Mining and Cruiser to lvl V you would get only 405 units per cycle out of 3x Miner IIÆs with the Osprey and 270 units using 3x Miner IÆs. IÆm pretty sure my math is correct on this, but let me know if I missed something. Given that for Gallente Drone V is a typical goal I donÆt think itÆs out of line. With only taking Mining Drone to lvl III the Vexor numbers come out 506.25, 406.25 and 323.75 respectively. I didnÆt feel like running the numbers for Harvester Drones. --Wherever you go, there you are.
Jacyro	Posted - 2006.01.13 18:15:00 - [47] Miner II - 60 units per pull Mining - +5% per lvl AstroG - +5% per lvl Cal Cruiser - +20% per lvl All at 5: ((60 * 2.00 * 1.25 * 1.25) * 3) = 562.5 That will be your total pull in m3 per minute in an Osprey with max skills. You will need cargo expanders for this as well.
Zandrox	Posted - 2006.01.13 19:54:00 - [48] Originally by: Jacyro Miner II - 60 units per pull Mining - +5% per lvl AstroG - +5% per lvl Cal Cruiser - +20% per lvl All at 5: ((60 * 2.00 * 1.25 * 1.25) * 3) = 562.5 That will be your total pull in m3 per minute in an Osprey with max skills. You will need cargo expanders for this as well. Or you could just stagger your mining lasers and dump it into (Oh the exploits!) a jet can.
Great Wandell	Posted - 2006.01.13 20:07:00 - [49] Also, the new skill "mining foreman" is a leadership skill which add's 2%/level to the mining yield of everyone in gang. so and extra 10% on those above mentioned numbers makes the vexor as good as medium barge.
Maxell Snow	Posted - 2006.01.13 21:32:00 - [50] Originally by: Corunna ElMan See, in my book, stupid people who manage to circumvent Darwinism and continue to survive are exploiting too - yet we continue to see ridiculous posts like yours awesome...I love it, good retort... -----------------------------------------------
Darkdashing	Posted - 2006.01.13 22:56:00 - [51] Originally by: Jacyro Originally by: Buxaroo LOL I can't believe you guys mine with only 3 miner II's.....that takes forever. Granted, not everyone can afford a Brutix, especially starting out but it's a great ship to mine in. Like I said 7 Miner II, 3 co-processors, 3 cap chargers (was 4 but I prefer a AB) and 2 cargo expanders and you got a nice mining setup. Oh and to the guy talking about ore units, you need to tell us what you are mining. When calculating how much ore it doesnt really tell us much how many units but how much cubic meters. For instance I can mine 28 m3 of Krokite in a minute but around 280 of Hemorphite. Not to mention Veldspar 3 miner IIs on an Osprey with Caldari Cruiser 5 is the same as having 6 miner IIs on any other ship due to the Osprey's bonus of 20% additional mining yield per laser per creuiser level. So, it is not as bad as it seems. Add to that Mining lvl 5 and AstroG lvl 5 and you may need so cargo expanders on that Osprey. With the right support skills you can leave those 3 miner IIs running non-stop and just put it all into a jetcan. Also, you can fit a missile launcher and 2 med drones (was 4 before RMR) for protection. I mine in my Osprey in systems below 0.5 because I won't take my barge into low sec and I am not interested in training up to Gallente BS skill. I just see a lot of people in this thread saying that an Osprey is not a good mining ship when it is actually probably the best cruiser level mining ship in the game. Yeah I finally got the mining to 4 and cruiser to 4 and I must say this is pulling in the ore quickly. I can't believe before RMR you could fit 4 med drones in it though....damn, why they'd nerf that! There is beauty in tension....
Sathamarid	Posted - 2007.02.09 21:41:00 - [52] Edited by: Sathamarid on 09/02/2007 21:41:13 Edited by: Sathamarid on 09/02/2007 21:38:22 I'm in a well established corp and I mine in a 0.1 system with buddies covering the baddies if they show up. I get jet cans popped all the time. 3 in the last 2 days. If pirates know that people mine in a system they'll warp around the belts just so they can pop jet cans. AFAIK jet cans don't trigger aggression but I'm not sure of it. I'm gonna switch over to GSC's. Yeah, anchoring them is nearly impossible in a high traffic system. But out in the boonies it ain't so bad. Also people tend to think in only 2 dimensions when the anchor cans. Go "above" the field and you'll find plenty of space to anchor. That tip above about scouting anchoring points is GOLD Jerry GOLD. I think this guide is very good: http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=112115&rid=104381 Might not be up to date with Rev but it covers a lot of material.
Halada Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.09 21:57:00 - [53] Click on my sig, it will lead you to a full PDF 50 pages mining guide. It should help you a lot (it isnt perfect though). Originally by: Suhadi I really can't believe this. People who still advise new players to mine into their jetcan deserve to be shot. You sir, are a clueless idiot. Exploiting game mechanics? Misleading new players? Give me a break. If you feel resentful because you once got your ore stolen or something, it shouldn't influence well known knowledge. YOU are the one misleading our new players. Seriously... Click on my sig to read it !
Karasuma Akane Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.09 22:10:00 - [54] Originally by: Darkdashing Is there a detailed guide around somewhere...one that is better than the players guide on this site? Did you see the Complete Miners Guide listed in the stickythread at the top of this section of the forum?
Shanur	Posted - 2007.02.10 18:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Simon Jax The Vexor can be an even better mining Cruiser than the Osprey, though it takes more skill points. The Vexor gives a 10% bonus to mining drone yield per Cruiser level, and thereÆs a 5% bonus to drone yield per mining drone yield. With Mining, Mining Drone, Drone, and Cruiser all to lvl V you can get 518.75 units per cycle out of a Vexor using 4x Miner IIÆs and 5x Mining Drone IIÆs. You can get 418.75 units per cycle using 4x Miner IÆs and 5x Mining Drone IIÆs as well (taking possible cpu restriction into account). Note û Miner IÆs + Drone IÆs = 331.25. With Mining and Cruiser to lvl V you would get only 405 units per cycle out of 3x Miner IIÆs with the Osprey and 270 units using 3x Miner IÆs. IÆm pretty sure my math is correct on this, but let me know if I missed something. Given that for Gallente Drone V is a typical goal I donÆt think itÆs out of line. With only taking Mining Drone to lvl III the Vexor numbers come out 506.25, 406.25 and 323.75 respectively. I didnÆt feel like running the numbers for Harvester Drones. Although Halada's mining guide pays woefully little attention to drone miners, it has done the math regarding harvesters. The short and sweet of it, they are not worth it. Stick to T2 miner drones. Another thing to keep in mind with drone mining is that theyr efficiency is affected by the distance they need to travel between your ship and the roid because they have to dump their ore off in your hold. So while i take your word for the Vexor being able to out mine the Osprey, this probably requires some skilled positioning as well as a heavy investment in drone skills.

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