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Darkdashing
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Posted - 2006.01.11 11:34:00 -
[1]
Is there a detailed guide around somewhere...one that is better than the players guide on this site?
It seems that an osprey would make a great miner considering the huge bonus, but the cargo hold is only 450--I'm a beginner miner so can anyone point me to some info? I'm pretty sure i need the anchoring skill, but once I have this, can i dump the ore into a regular cargo can and just put the mined ore into that can next to my ship (osprey) while a corpmate in a industrial ship picks up the ore from my anchored can?
thanks 
There is beauty in tension.... |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.01.11 11:40:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Darkdashing
Is there a detailed guide around somewhere...one that is better than the players guide on this site?
It seems that an osprey would make a great miner considering the huge bonus, but the cargo hold is only 450--I'm a beginner miner so can anyone point me to some info? I'm pretty sure i need the anchoring skill, but once I have this, can i dump the ore into a regular cargo can and just put the mined ore into that can next to my ship (osprey) while a corpmate in a industrial ship picks up the ore from my anchored can?
thanks
In an Osprey, you take an industrial ship and use that to pick up your ore. You either mine and jetcan the ore, or anchor a giant secure can with your industrial to do the same.
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
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Armagedon Tired
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Posted - 2006.01.11 12:26:00 -
[3]
This is how I mine:
I take both my Osprey and my Badger to the system I intend to mine. I leave the Badger in a station and head off to an asteroid belt in my Osprey. As soon as I have some Ore in my hold I jetison it and I just keep moving the ore from my hold to the Jet-Can. When the jet-can is full I get into my badger and move the ore to the refining station. Don't forget that Jet-Can's only last about an hour so make a new one before the hour is up or you will loose all your ore.
I use Jet-cans rather than secure containors because they hold much more (about 27500 m3) and they can be placed anywhere (secure containors can only be anchored 5000m meters away from the nearest object and in 0.7 sec space or below)
Equipment wise I use 3 Miner 2's and 2 co processors to get enough CPU for them. I have an Asault launcher fitted with small missisles and a drone bay full of light scout drones to deal with any NPC Rats. With this setup I can make 2-3 mill ISK in 2-3 hours in hi-sec space.
You will need mining 4 to fit the Miner 2's and will want to max your cruiser skill for the 20% yield bonus per cruiser level!
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Suhadi
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Posted - 2006.01.11 12:57:00 -
[4]
I really can't believe this.
People who still advise new players to mine into their jetcan deserve to be shot. Ignoring the fact that it is basically exploiting game mechanics, you are just setting the poor newbies up for a fall when the first ore thief comes calling. Shame on you.
And no, ore thieves are not at all scared that they can be shot now, it just adds a whole new fun element to the job. If the worst comes to the worst, industrial ships are stupidly cheap to replace anyway. 
Darkdashing, since you have the right idea about working in a team with a corpmate, you should 100% definitely use an anchored secure container to mine into. This way you will never have to worry about thieves.
If you do decide to mine into a jetcan, sooner or later you WILL have ore stolen. Just remember that you were warned, and try not to be too bitter. 
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- Suhadi |
Tom Tarn
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Posted - 2006.01.11 13:17:00 -
[5]
I agree that Jet-Can mining is a risk.
I have actually been next to my can, and was unable to do anything to stop an indy who wandered past my can just before warping and took everything.
I could do nothing before the theft and even if I had had my Bantam equiped for fighting, would not have made much of a dent in the indy shields with a railgun.
My advice is to use secure containers or mine with mates.
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This time next year we'll be billionaires. |
Duraeli
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Posted - 2006.01.11 13:19:00 -
[6]
If you aren't mining with someone else use sec cans.
If you are mining with a friend, friends, or corpmates you can probably safely use jetcans (provided the system isn't too crowded) because you probably have a dedicated hauler that is keeping the can volume a little lower.
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Persona non grata |
Jacyro
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Posted - 2006.01.11 13:19:00 -
[7]
There is nothing wrong with jetcan mining. For one, it is most definately not an exploit  Also, it is a great way to mine in one spot without moving between much smaller secure cans. Sure, there is always the possibility that an ore thief will happen along, but that is a rare occasion. If it happens more than once in the same system, it is time to move away, far away.
As far as jetcans go, I have never had one pop in less than two hours. I am either extremely lucky or the timer is longer than one hour.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.01.11 13:21:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Suhadi
I really can't believe this.
People who still advise new players to mine into their jetcan deserve to be shot. Ignoring the fact that it is basically exploiting game mechanics, you are just setting the poor newbies up for a fall when the first ore thief comes calling. Shame on you.
And no, ore thieves are not at all scared that they can be shot now, it just adds a whole new fun element to the job. If the worst comes to the worst, industrial ships are stupidly cheap to replace anyway.
Darkdashing, since you have the right idea about working in a team with a corpmate, you should 100% definitely use an anchored secure container to mine into. This way you will never have to worry about thieves.
What are you talking about?
As long as you don't mine in a hub system, you'll never see an ore thief.
If I told people to use secure cans, all the miners would come and flame me for telling him that because sec cans are completely useless.
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
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Cukogra
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Posted - 2006.01.11 13:22:00 -
[9]
A) Jet can mining, just like explained above (but you are more open to ore thieves).
B) Two accounts, one for mining, one for hauling.
C) Mine with a buddy or group (much much better, not as boring, not as risky either).
D) Secure can mining like explained above.
Jet can mining is not an exploit. See, jet can mining exposes the player to ore thieves, whereas secure can mining does not. It's not so much an exploit as it is a choice that can yield higher profits but also higher losses. Reward vs. risk.
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Armagedon Tired
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Posted - 2006.01.11 13:23:00 -
[10]
1, The very first thing I said is "This is how I mine" I did not say this is the only way to mine and I did not say it has to be done like this.
2, Anyone that is mining in an Osprey (Cruiser) is not a complete noob.
Now I have got that off my chest: Yes, I agree, ore can be stolen and I am sure some people have had bad experiences there but it has never happened to me and implying that you are going to loose all your ore everytime you use a Jet-Can isn't exactly accurate. Also I spent hours mineing with my frigate as a noob puting everything into a secure can and when I had finished I collected it all with my badger refined it and was most upset to discover that I could have made more money in about 45 minutes doing level 1 missions.
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Byronor
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Posted - 2006.01.11 13:53:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Armagedon Tired
2, Anyone that is mining in an Osprey (Cruiser) is not a complete noob.
That's funny other people who mine in an Osprey call me noob for mining in a Cormorant (Destroyer). So what is the best ship to mine in - given the fact, that I'm really a noob an far from the skills necessary for a mining barge.
In an Osprey I can fit 3 Mining Laser 2, which gives me 259.2 Ore/min (mining 4). In a Cormorant I can fit 4 xecl drilling beam I which give me only 225.6 Ore/min.
BUT in a Cormorant I still can fit 3 or 4 weapons, where in an Osprey I can fit only one missile launcher... so what is better slightly faster mining or more weapons.
On the other hand the Osprey has more shield/armor/hull...
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Corunna ElMan
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Posted - 2006.01.11 13:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Suhadi
Ignoring the fact that it is basically exploiting game mechanics
You know, the Devs ignore that "fact" too, since they have already stated that this is one way to do it in the Knowledge Base entries. Go see for yourself.
People who cry "exploit" over every little thing deserve to be shot. 
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Imaldris
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Posted - 2006.01.11 13:58:00 -
[13]
Ugh, the ore thieves will come in two's and one will jack your stuff while the other stands by ready to jack you if you try to attack one of them.
Here is how I mine.
1) find a .7 or .6 space near a station that has a market. It's not good enough to just be near a station because when you want to sell your ore, you don't want to be 5 jumps away from a station that pays a decent price.
2) Place anchored secure containers at the best spots you can in the asteroid belt. This takes patience and practice to do right, but it's not hard when you get the hang of it.
3) I have an exequror with three miners II's and three drones for protection. I can put 4 on them but need to up my engineering skill first.
4) Find out which ore is selling for the best prices. It's not just a matter of how high the price but how high the price per volume of ore you can move. Most of the time, cordite is the best bang for the buck. But sometimes the best price is too far away and you can make more money by mining something else that you can sell quicker.
5) Mine the ore into your password protected, anchored cans. Use drones for security. Then get a hauler, I use an Iteron III, to unload your cans and deliver the ore to market.
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Armagedon Tired
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Posted - 2006.01.11 14:14:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Armagedon Tired on 11/01/2006 14:17:24
Byronor, I would use the Osprey because you get 20% bonus to yield per cruiser level (which makes a big difference right from the word go and means you double the standard yield when you eventually get to level 5) I also find that light missisles and drones are more than capable of dealing with the NPC rats on 0.5's
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Byronor
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Posted - 2006.01.11 14:25:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Byronor on 11/01/2006 14:25:15
ok thx. Somehow I missed that the 20% are PER CRUISER LEVEL. And I also missed the Drones. So the Osprey ist definitely better...
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Antares Lee
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Posted - 2006.01.11 15:38:00 -
[16]
I also want to upgrade my Bantam for mining and am considering the Osprey. To the people using 3 Miner II's on the Osprey: Don't you run into capacitor problems very fast with this setup? As I understand the values, the Osprey recharges 2.8 cap/sec and 3 Miner II's would use 4.5 cap/sec. This doesn't of course take into regard any skill boni, but I'd need more than 50% more cap recharge to mine continuously. Are there any modules which can boost the cap enough?
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Zandrox
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Posted - 2006.01.11 16:07:00 -
[17]
Tip for anchoring secure containers. Finding the sweet spot to anchor in an industrial is a PITA. So dont do it. Take out a shuttle or any ship but an industrial. Set your overview to show the mining default, this will show all the roids and cans nearby. Sort the overview by distance. Find a nice cluster of roids and approch it and try to stay 5k away from thing. When you find the spot jettison some cheap item like 1 ammo. Name the can something you can recognise. Repeat for the number of secure cans you want to drop. Go back and get the industrial ship with the cans. Warp into the belt and approach the jet cans that you dropped. Take the item out of it popping the can. Jettison your secure can and anchor it. Repeat for all cans. Found it works pretty well since the temp can shows up in the overview too so you can make sure that your spots arent too close together.
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Suhadi
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Posted - 2006.01.11 16:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Corunna ElMan
Originally by: Suhadi
Ignoring the fact that it is basically exploiting game mechanics
You know, the Devs ignore that "fact" too, since they have already stated that this is one way to do it in the Knowledge Base entries. Go see for yourself.
Okay.
Originally by: Knowledge Base
Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.
Abusing an unintended 'feature' = exploit in my book, and the reason why nothing has been done about it? Ore thieves!
All new miners should read the whole knowledge base article: Why is it so easy to steal ore? It's a little out of date now due to can flagging though.
Originally by: Antares Lee
I also want to upgrade my Bantam for mining and am considering the Osprey. To the people using 3 Miner II's on the Osprey: Don't you run into capacitor problems very fast with this setup? As I understand the values, the Osprey recharges 2.8 cap/sec and 3 Miner II's would use 4.5 cap/sec. This doesn't of course take into regard any skill boni, but I'd need more than 50% more cap recharge to mine continuously. Are there any modules which can boost the cap enough?
Hmm, cap doesn't quite work like that, it recharges much faster when it is low so you will likely find that you reach a point where it's recharging equal to your laser use. If it does fully drain your cap you can fit things like cap rechargers to help the situation.
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- Suhadi |
Tony Fats
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Posted - 2006.01.11 17:05:00 -
[19]
1) Osprey is the best mining cruiser in the game.
2) Mine into secure cans if you are mining alone. Set up 10 of them around an asteroid field, and mine into them. Then grab your hauler and empty them. You get the same amount of ore as a jettison can, or even more, depending on how many secure cans you use.
3) If you are mining with a friend, use a jet can and watch local. If someone dodgy comes in, one of you grab your hauler and come get your ore quick.
Generally it is not worth shooting at ore thieves in empire.
If you are willing to fight for your ore, you shouldn't be in high sec.
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Simon Jax
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Posted - 2006.01.11 17:24:00 -
[20]
If I'm worried about ore theives in an area, I'll make a "safe-spot" bookmark nearby and run a scan to make sure there aren't any warpable objects nearby. Drop my jet-can there and make trips to and from to fill it up. It takes a bit more time than a jet-can where you are mining ... but it seems to be easier than trying to cram a Giant Secure into place an anchoring it ... let alone 2 containers since I can fill the Jet can up beyond what a singe GS can hold and haul it back.
Thoretically, if you have drones or a couple of weapons you can at the very least make the ore-theif remember you. Equip a Webifyer and a Warp Disruptor if you can fit it. If an Indy takes your ore, web+disrupt and hit him with whatever you got. Sure, a Rail or the light-drones may never be able to bring it down ... but neither can his weapon hurt you and you've just taken his "easy money" and turned it into a time sink!
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Buxaroo
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Posted - 2006.01.11 17:27:00 -
[21]
I don't know how you guys keep comign up with the osprey
Here is my mining setup: Brutix, 7 Miner II's, 3 cap rechargers, 3 co-processors, 2 cargo expanders. In about 45 minutes I can fill a jetcan with Hemorphite. Thats where the 2 cargo expanders come in. Instead of staggering the lasers I just let them hit the cycles at same time and move over the ore into a jetcan every minute. Great setup if ya ask me. Now onto the ore thief thing: I have never had ore stolen from me. Maybe its because of where I usually mine or maybe because I have a lot of friendly neighbors (0.5-0.0 space no doubt!) or maybe a thief would be pretty stupid to steal from a well established corp or alliance and get their name put on the region's ****list. Or maybe it's because once they get within range of my Brutix and see how freakin UUUUGLY it is they take pity on me and give me a pass thinking "That guy needs the ISK more than we do!"
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"No matter where you go, there you are." |
Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.01.11 17:32:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 11/01/2006 17:32:05
Jet can mining is fine - its all I have ever done. Highsec, lowsec, 0.0... it works.
Avoid ore thieves by mining in an empty system - there is no benefit whatsoever to mining in a system with lots of other players in.
And whoever said jetcan mining is an 'exploit' clearly does not know what they are even talking about. I'd like to see you petition it as an exploit next time you see them doing it - and see what kind of response you get.
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kember
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Posted - 2006.01.11 18:09:00 -
[23]
If you are using jetcans, if you give your can a new name it will last for 2 hours instead of 1.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.01.11 18:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: kember
If you are using jetcans, if you give your can a new name it will last for 2 hours instead of 1.
I have never heard this before. Proof?
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
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Suhadi
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Posted - 2006.01.11 18:44:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Edited by: Butter Dog on 11/01/2006 17:32:05
And whoever said jetcan mining is an 'exploit' clearly does not know what they are even talking about. I'd like to see you petition it as an exploit next time you see them doing it - and see what kind of response you get.
I already explained my meaning, reading comprehension ftw.
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- Suhadi |
Simon Jax
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Posted - 2006.01.11 18:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Suhadi
Originally by: Butter Dog
Edited by: Butter Dog on 11/01/2006 17:32:05
And whoever said jetcan mining is an 'exploit' clearly does not know what they are even talking about. I'd like to see you petition it as an exploit next time you see them doing it - and see what kind of response you get.
I already explained my meaning, reading comprehension ftw.
While an "Unintended Use" may be and exploit in YOUR book, that doesn't actually matter unless there is some indication that this is an exploit from the Developer's perspective.
Unintended <> unwanted. Further ruining your argument is the fact that CCP recently put in the changes to flag people for Ore thievery. And other than jet-cans there are precious few reasons to ever use a non-secure container. So unless hacking secure-canisters is far more prevalent than it seems to be, CCP put in the flagging stuff specifically for jet-can mining.
If they considered it an exploit ... why wouldn't they simply reduce the capacity of jet-cans to make the method nigh useless?
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mistery mango
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Posted - 2006.01.11 19:24:00 -
[27]
i mine in a retriever wit x2 strip miners I so i get 1600 ore units per cikle and stor them in 2 secur cans (3900 m3 x2 and the cargo 2000 m3 total. 9800m3 and u fill taht up in 19 min) (i cose secur cans becus thers no riska and u dont get nervus trying to haul the ore beror it is gone)
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Darkdashing
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Posted - 2006.01.11 22:30:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Armagedon Tired
This is how I mine:
I take both my Osprey and my Badger to the system I intend to mine. I leave the Badger in a station and head off to an asteroid belt in my Osprey. As soon as I have some Ore in my hold I jetison it and I just keep moving the ore from my hold to the Jet-Can. When the jet-can is full I get into my badger and move the ore to the refining station. Don't forget that Jet-Can's only last about an hour so make a new one before the hour is up or you will loose all your ore.
I use Jet-cans rather than secure containors because they hold much more (about 27500 m3) and they can be placed anywhere (secure containors can only be anchored 5000m meters away from the nearest object and in 0.7 sec space or below)
Equipment wise I use 3 Miner 2's and 2 co processors to get enough CPU for them. I have an Asault launcher fitted with small missisles and a drone bay full of light scout drones to deal with any NPC Rats. With this setup I can make 2-3 mill ISK in 2-3 hours in hi-sec space.
You will need mining 4 to fit the Miner 2's and will want to max your cruiser skill for the 20% yield bonus per cruiser level!
wow, I'm impressed with all the replies  , I'm sure it'll help someone else too.
So, I can use a jet can and keep it to my ship with the anchoring skill correct? Or do i need that if I intend to use only jet cans? Would a large secure container fit into an osprey anyway?
thanks!
There is beauty in tension.... |
Corunna ElMan
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Posted - 2006.01.12 03:36:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Suhadi
Abusing an unintended 'feature' = exploit in my book
Dear Sir or Madam,
We regret to inform you that "your book" is meaningless when it comes to the actual way EVE works. We apologize for any inconvenience.
You see, there are many things that inventive players have done to find new uses for existing game features.
For instance, the Escrow system was never intended to allow players to sell their own items - so, are you saying that players who circumvent the Market by selling on Escrow are exploting?
Or will you break down and admit that your perspective is irrelevant and you don't dictate what is and isn't an exploit?
See, in my book, stupid people who manage to circumvent Darwinism and continue to survive are exploiting too - yet we continue to see ridiculous posts like yours
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Suhadi
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Posted - 2006.01.12 09:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Corunna ElMan
Originally by: Suhadi
Abusing an unintended 'feature' = exploit in my book
Dear Sir or Madam,
We regret to inform you that "your book" is meaningless when it comes to the actual way EVE works. We apologize for any inconvenience.
You see, there are many things that inventive players have done to find new uses for existing game features.
For instance, the Escrow system was never intended to allow players to sell their own items - so, are you saying that players who circumvent the Market by selling on Escrow are exploting?
Or will you break down and admit that your perspective is irrelevant and you don't dictate what is and isn't an exploit?
See, in my book, stupid people who manage to circumvent Darwinism and continue to survive are exploiting too - yet we continue to see ridiculous posts like yours
Bearing in mind that I already conceded that the devs didn't consider it an exploit, I'm not really seeing your point here.
But if replying for the sake of it makes you feel important, by all means continue; handy tip for you though, if I were to write redundant and self-satisfying posts, I would try not to sound like such a smug tosser.
Or you could just find something worthwhile to say, instead of trolling. 
Originally by: Darkdashing
wow, I'm impressed with all the replies , I'm sure it'll help someone else too.
So, I can use a jet can and keep it to my ship with the anchoring skill correct? Or do i need that if I intend to use only jet cans? Would a large secure container fit into an osprey anyway?
thanks!
If you're going to mine into a jetcan, you don't need to anchor it. Secure containers tend to be quite large, and I wouldn't bother with anything but a giant secure can, so you'll need a hauler, or a friend with one.
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- Suhadi |
Armagedon Tired
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Posted - 2006.01.12 09:43:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Armagedon Tired on 12/01/2006 10:01:03
No the Giant secure container will not fit in your Osprey's hold. You will need an industrial ship to place the secure containor where you want it as giant ones take up 3000m3 in your hold and you will also need it to collect the ore and seliver it to the station. Anchoring the can it allows you to lock it's position in space and by seting a password you can prevent un aauthorised access.
As for the cap use I do not have a problem continuously mining with all 3 Miner 2's in my Osprey, I can't remember exactly but I think one of the skills (mining or possibly one of the ship's bonuses) reduces the cap need per level (can anyone confirm/elaborate on this please)
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Suhadi
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Posted - 2006.01.12 10:16:00 -
[32]
Not aware of any skills that reduce mining laser cap use, some mining ships have this bonus I believe, Bantam is one iirc which makes it a good choice for newbies I guess. The Osprey doesn't have this bonus, guess they expect you to have your cap skills up by then.
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- Suhadi |
Darkdashing
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Posted - 2006.01.12 10:21:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Armagedon Tired
Edited by: Armagedon Tired on 12/01/2006 10:01:03
No the Giant secure container will not fit in your Osprey's hold. You will need an industrial ship to place the secure containor where you want it as giant ones take up 3000m3 in your hold and you will also need it to collect the ore and seliver it to the station. Anchoring the can it allows you to lock it's position in space and by seting a password you can prevent un aauthorised access.
As for the cap use I do not have a problem continuously mining with all 3 Miner 2's in my Osprey, I can't remember exactly but I think one of the skills (mining or possibly one of the ship's bonuses) reduces the cap need per level (can anyone confirm/elaborate on this please)
there are skills to reduce cap need for turrets but it says weapons only.
There is beauty in tension.... |
Buxaroo
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Posted - 2006.01.12 12:01:00 -
[34]
LOL I can't believe you guys mine with only 3 miner II's.....that takes forever. Granted, not everyone can afford a Brutix, especially starting out but it's a great ship to mine in. Like I said 7 Miner II, 3 co-processors, 3 cap chargers (was 4 but I prefer a AB) and 2 cargo expanders and you got a nice mining setup. Oh and to the guy talking about ore units, you need to tell us what you are mining. When calculating how much ore it doesnt really tell us much how many units but how much cubic meters. For instance I can mine 28 m3 of Krokite in a minute but around 280 of Hemorphite. Not to mention Veldspar
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"No matter where you go, there you are." |
Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.01.12 12:38:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Suhadi
Originally by: Butter Dog
Edited by: Butter Dog on 11/01/2006 17:32:05
And whoever said jetcan mining is an 'exploit' clearly does not know what they are even talking about. I'd like to see you petition it as an exploit next time you see them doing it - and see what kind of response you get.
I already explained my meaning, reading comprehension ftw.
The word 'exploit' has a universally accepted meaning in EVE. If you choose to adopt some other meaning of the word, then that is your problem and your problem alone.
The rest of us will carry on jetcan mining knowing full well it is not an 'exploit' using any reasonable definition of the word.
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.01.12 12:42:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Buxaroo
LOL I can't believe you guys mine with only 3 miner II's.....that takes forever. Granted, not everyone can afford a Brutix, especially starting out but it's a great ship to mine in. Like I said 7 Miner II, 3 co-processors, 3 cap chargers (was 4 but I prefer a AB) and 2 cargo expanders and you got a nice mining setup. Oh and to the guy talking about ore units, you need to tell us what you are mining. When calculating how much ore it doesnt really tell us much how many units but how much cubic meters. For instance I can mine 28 m3 of Krokite in a minute but around 280 of Hemorphite. Not to mention Veldspar
The Osprey has a fantastic mining bonus, so he will still be pulling in a lot of ore with those three mining lasers. Almost as much as your brutix with top-end skills.
Regarding m3's of ore... Your mining lasers will always pull in the same amount of cubic metres (m3) of ANY ore.
The number of units differ due to the different sizes per unit, but not the actual m3. This is always the same and how anyone will measure the effectiveness of their mining.
So if you mine 28m3 of Crokite in an hour, you will mine 28m3 of Hemorphite in the same time period, or indeed any other ore.
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Suhadi
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Posted - 2006.01.12 13:01:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Suhadi on 12/01/2006 13:02:43
Originally by: Butter Dog
The word 'exploit' has a universally accepted meaning in EVE. If you choose to adopt some other meaning of the word, then that is your problem and your problem alone.
The rest of us will carry on jetcan mining knowing full well it is not an 'exploit' using any reasonable definition of the word.
Will GMs take direct action against you for jetcan mining? No.
Does this mean it isn't an exploit? Only if you consider exploits to only be things that the GMs will take direct action against you for.
If it was an exploit, why would the GMs not take action against you? Because there is a far more interesting and novel deterrent, ie. the possibility of having your ore stolen.
What makes it an exploit though? It's an exploit by definition, as it is exploiting the game mechanics in a way which was never intended, to the benefit of the player. I'm not aware of any other definition of the word "exploit".
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- Suhadi |
Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.01.12 13:31:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Suhadi
Edited by: Suhadi on 12/01/2006 13:02:43
Originally by: Butter Dog
The word 'exploit' has a universally accepted meaning in EVE. If you choose to adopt some other meaning of the word, then that is your problem and your problem alone.
The rest of us will carry on jetcan mining knowing full well it is not an 'exploit' using any reasonable definition of the word.
Will GMs take direct action against you for jetcan mining? No.
Does this mean it isn't an exploit? Only if you consider exploits to only be things that the GMs will take direct action against you for.
If it was an exploit, why would the GMs not take action against you? Because there is a far more interesting and novel deterrent, ie. the possibility of having your ore stolen.
What makes it an exploit though? It's an exploit by definition, as it is exploiting the game mechanics in a way which was never intended, to the benefit of the player. I'm not aware of any other definition of the word "exploit".
But it isnt an exploit. You are not using the game mechanics to gain an unfair advantage over other players.
The introduction of can-flagging in RMR ended that arguement once and for all. Its Risk V's Reward - like almost anything else in this game.
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Corunna ElMan
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Posted - 2006.01.12 13:40:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Corunna ElMan on 12/01/2006 13:40:33
Originally by: Suhadi
Or you could just find something worthwhile to say, instead of trolling.
Considering your original post, I think you should take your own advice before dispensing it to others.
It sounds like you're annoyed because someone has embarrassed you by pointing out the vast and obvious flaws in your ridiculous original assertion.
If you're such a champion of worthwhile posting, why not take a few more minutes to think before you make claims you can't support?
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Suhadi
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Posted - 2006.01.12 14:07:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Corunna ElMan
Edited by: Corunna ElMan on 12/01/2006 13:40:33
Considering your original post, I think you should take your own advice before dispensing it to others.
Really? Because having reread my original post it seems like I was warning a new player of the pitfalls of jetcan mining that the other 'helpful' replies had completely neglected to mention. It occurred to me at the time that a fair amount of new players probably receive the same advice and subsequently quit the game the first time several hours of their work is blown away by a thief.
Quote:
It sounds like you're annoyed because someone has embarrassed you by pointing out the vast and obvious flaws in your ridiculous original assertion.
If you're such a champion of worthwhile posting, why not take a few more minutes to think before you make claims you can't support?
Claims I can't support? I'd say I've made an admirable effort in defending my position. The only person who need be embarrassed here is you, as you have yet to contribute anything meaningful to the discussion.
Originally by: Butter Dog
But it isnt an exploit. You are not using the game mechanics to gain an unfair advantage over other players.
Hmm, well I don't see that the unfair advantage has to be *over* another player tbh. As for the risk vs reward though, I agree completely, which is why I'm not jumping up and down demanding that jetcan miners be banned. 
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- Suhadi |
Darkdashing
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Posted - 2006.01.12 14:33:00 -
[41]
dont' worry, I never considered jet can mining as negative, wrong, or exploiting--it's common knowledge that it is the major way to mine. I wanted some advice not trolling my post, so please dont discuss game ethics in my post.
btw, the osprey has a gigantic bonus to mining that is very sweet 20% per level of cruiser training, im at 3 now that's 60% bonus, and i have mining to lv 3 thats 15% more...I'm training those two so I figure it will be as good as a brutix
There is beauty in tension.... |
Buxaroo
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Posted - 2006.01.12 14:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Regarding m3's of ore... Your mining lasers will always pull in the same amount of cubic metres (m3) of ANY ore.
The number of units differ due to the different sizes per unit, but not the actual m3. This is always the same and how anyone will measure the effectiveness of their mining.
So if you mine 28m3 of Crokite in an hour, you will mine 28m3 of Hemorphite in the same time period, or indeed any other ore.
Yes that's pretty much what I meant. I meant that that guy said he pulls in 6000 units or some such every 15 minutes. Units of what is what I ask. If he meant m3 as units then that is ok, if he means 6000 units of Hemorphite then that sounds crazy.
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"No matter where you go, there you are." |
Corunna ElMan
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Posted - 2006.01.13 02:40:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Suhadi
Claims I can't support? I'd say I've made an admirable effort in defending my position.
If by "admirable" you really mean "weak", then you've done... admirably.
yo very specifically said "Ignoring the fact that it is basically exploiting game mechanics" and I quite correctly pointed out that this is not, in fact, a fact, but rather simply your opinion.
Given that your fundamental premise is wrong, the rest of your argument becomes worthless. I also notice that you have avoided addressing my specific example of Escrow, another game mechanic that has been utilized in an unintended fashion (much to the praise of the Devs). Is that also an "exploit", or will you need to backpedal and revise your definition yet again?
If I can discourage people like you from spreading misinformation, I've contributed far more than your knee-jerk opinions ever will.
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Jacyro
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Posted - 2006.01.13 11:04:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Buxaroo
LOL I can't believe you guys mine with only 3 miner II's.....that takes forever. Granted, not everyone can afford a Brutix, especially starting out but it's a great ship to mine in. Like I said 7 Miner II, 3 co-processors, 3 cap chargers (was 4 but I prefer a AB) and 2 cargo expanders and you got a nice mining setup. Oh and to the guy talking about ore units, you need to tell us what you are mining. When calculating how much ore it doesnt really tell us much how many units but how much cubic meters. For instance I can mine 28 m3 of Krokite in a minute but around 280 of Hemorphite. Not to mention Veldspar
3 miner IIs on an Osprey with Caldari Cruiser 5 is the same as having 6 miner IIs on any other ship due to the Osprey's bonus of 20% additional mining yield per laser per creuiser level. So, it is not as bad as it seems. Add to that Mining lvl 5 and AstroG lvl 5 and you may need so cargo expanders on that Osprey. With the right support skills you can leave those 3 miner IIs running non-stop and just put it all into a jetcan. Also, you can fit a missile launcher and 2 med drones (was 4 before RMR) for protection. I mine in my Osprey in systems below 0.5 because I won't take my barge into low sec and I am not interested in training up to Gallente BS skill.
I just see a lot of people in this thread saying that an Osprey is not a good mining ship when it is actually probably the best cruiser level mining ship in the game.
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Mathir
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Posted - 2006.01.13 14:36:00 -
[45]
And if you happen to have trained up Minmatar cruisers instead, the Scythe also has a mining bonus.
Corporate on my uniform, Freelancer in my heart
Fly Free, Live Free |
Simon Jax
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Posted - 2006.01.13 17:59:00 -
[46]
The Vexor can be an even better mining Cruiser than the Osprey, though it takes more skill points. The Vexor gives a 10% bonus to mining drone yield per Cruiser level, and thereĘs a 5% bonus to drone yield per mining drone yield.
With Mining, Mining Drone, Drone, and Cruiser all to lvl V you can get 518.75 units per cycle out of a Vexor using 4x Miner IIĘs and 5x Mining Drone IIĘs. You can get 418.75 units per cycle using 4x Miner IĘs and 5x Mining Drone IIĘs as well (taking possible cpu restriction into account). Note ū Miner IĘs + Drone IĘs = 331.25.
With Mining and Cruiser to lvl V you would get only 405 units per cycle out of 3x Miner IIĘs with the Osprey and 270 units using 3x Miner IĘs.
IĘm pretty sure my math is correct on this, but let me know if I missed something. Given that for Gallente Drone V is a typical goal I donĘt think itĘs out of line. With only taking Mining Drone to lvl III the Vexor numbers come out 506.25, 406.25 and 323.75 respectively. I didnĘt feel like running the numbers for Harvester Drones.
--Wherever you go, there you are. |
Jacyro
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Posted - 2006.01.13 18:15:00 -
[47]
Miner II - 60 units per pull
Mining - +5% per lvl
AstroG - +5% per lvl
Cal Cruiser - +20% per lvl
All at 5:
((60 * 2.00 * 1.25 * 1.25) * 3) = 562.5
That will be your total pull in m3 per minute in an Osprey with max skills. You will need cargo expanders for this as well.
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Zandrox
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Posted - 2006.01.13 19:54:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Jacyro
Miner II - 60 units per pull
Mining - +5% per lvl
AstroG - +5% per lvl
Cal Cruiser - +20% per lvl
All at 5:
((60 * 2.00 * 1.25 * 1.25) * 3) = 562.5
That will be your total pull in m3 per minute in an Osprey with max skills. You will need cargo expanders for this as well.
Or you could just stagger your mining lasers and dump it into (Oh the exploits!) a jet can.
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Great Wandell
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Posted - 2006.01.13 20:07:00 -
[49]
Also, the new skill "mining foreman" is a leadership skill which add's 2%/level to the mining yield of everyone in gang.
so and extra 10% on those above mentioned numbers makes the vexor as good as medium barge.
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Maxell Snow
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Posted - 2006.01.13 21:32:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Corunna ElMan
See, in my book, stupid people who manage to circumvent Darwinism and continue to survive are exploiting too - yet we continue to see ridiculous posts like yours
awesome...I love it, good retort...
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Darkdashing
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Posted - 2006.01.13 22:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jacyro
Originally by: Buxaroo
LOL I can't believe you guys mine with only 3 miner II's.....that takes forever. Granted, not everyone can afford a Brutix, especially starting out but it's a great ship to mine in. Like I said 7 Miner II, 3 co-processors, 3 cap chargers (was 4 but I prefer a AB) and 2 cargo expanders and you got a nice mining setup. Oh and to the guy talking about ore units, you need to tell us what you are mining. When calculating how much ore it doesnt really tell us much how many units but how much cubic meters. For instance I can mine 28 m3 of Krokite in a minute but around 280 of Hemorphite. Not to mention Veldspar
3 miner IIs on an Osprey with Caldari Cruiser 5 is the same as having 6 miner IIs on any other ship due to the Osprey's bonus of 20% additional mining yield per laser per creuiser level. So, it is not as bad as it seems. Add to that Mining lvl 5 and AstroG lvl 5 and you may need so cargo expanders on that Osprey. With the right support skills you can leave those 3 miner IIs running non-stop and just put it all into a jetcan. Also, you can fit a missile launcher and 2 med drones (was 4 before RMR) for protection. I mine in my Osprey in systems below 0.5 because I won't take my barge into low sec and I am not interested in training up to Gallente BS skill.
I just see a lot of people in this thread saying that an Osprey is not a good mining ship when it is actually probably the best cruiser level mining ship in the game.
Yeah I finally got the mining to 4 and cruiser to 4 and I must say this is pulling in the ore quickly. I can't believe before RMR you could fit 4 med drones in it though....damn, why they'd nerf that!
There is beauty in tension.... |
Sathamarid
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:41:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Sathamarid on 09/02/2007 21:41:13
Edited by: Sathamarid on 09/02/2007 21:38:22
I'm in a well established corp and I mine in a 0.1 system with buddies covering the baddies if they show up. I get jet cans popped all the time. 3 in the last 2 days. If pirates know that people mine in a system they'll warp around the belts just so they can pop jet cans. AFAIK jet cans don't trigger aggression but I'm not sure of it.
I'm gonna switch over to GSC's. Yeah, anchoring them is nearly impossible in a high traffic system. But out in the boonies it ain't so bad. Also people tend to think in only 2 dimensions when the anchor cans. Go "above" the field and you'll find plenty of space to anchor. That tip above about scouting anchoring points is GOLD Jerry GOLD.
I think this guide is very good: http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=112115&rid=104381
Might not be up to date with Rev but it covers *a lot* of material.
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Halada
Caldari
STK Scientific
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.09 21:57:00 -
[53]
Click on my sig, it will lead you to a full PDF 50 pages mining guide. It should help you a lot (it isnt perfect though).
Originally by: Suhadi
I really can't believe this.
People who still advise new players to mine into their jetcan deserve to be shot.
You sir, are a clueless idiot. Exploiting game mechanics? Misleading new players? Give me a break. If you feel resentful because you once got your ore stolen or something, it shouldn't influence well known knowledge.
YOU are the one misleading our new players. Seriously...
Click on my sig to read it ! |
Karasuma Akane
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.09 22:10:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Darkdashing
Is there a detailed guide around somewhere...one that is better than the players guide on this site?
Did you see the Complete Miners Guide listed in the stickythread at the top of this section of the forum?
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Shanur
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Posted - 2007.02.10 18:06:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Simon Jax
The Vexor can be an even better mining Cruiser than the Osprey, though it takes more skill points. The Vexor gives a 10% bonus to mining drone yield per Cruiser level, and thereĘs a 5% bonus to drone yield per mining drone yield.
With Mining, Mining Drone, Drone, and Cruiser all to lvl V you can get 518.75 units per cycle out of a Vexor using 4x Miner IIĘs and 5x Mining Drone IIĘs. You can get 418.75 units per cycle using 4x Miner IĘs and 5x Mining Drone IIĘs as well (taking possible cpu restriction into account). Note ū Miner IĘs + Drone IĘs = 331.25.
With Mining and Cruiser to lvl V you would get only 405 units per cycle out of 3x Miner IIĘs with the Osprey and 270 units using 3x Miner IĘs.
IĘm pretty sure my math is correct on this, but let me know if I missed something. Given that for Gallente Drone V is a typical goal I donĘt think itĘs out of line. With only taking Mining Drone to lvl III the Vexor numbers come out 506.25, 406.25 and 323.75 respectively. I didnĘt feel like running the numbers for Harvester Drones.
Although Halada's mining guide pays woefully little attention to drone miners, it has done the math regarding harvesters. The short and sweet of it, they are not worth it. Stick to T2 miner drones. Another thing to keep in mind with drone mining is that theyr efficiency is affected by the distance they need to travel between your ship and the roid because they have to dump their ore off in your hold. So while i take your word for the Vexor being able to out mine the Osprey, this probably requires some skilled positioning as well as a heavy investment in drone skills. |
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