I know this is going to be a controversial topic (mostly everyone vs. me I think...) but please read trough. This is not a troll attempt of kind, but this is an attempt to generate discussion on this topic.

It seems to me that most of EVE player community seems to think , even if they don't do this themselves, that it's okay to shoot down a lone miner or missioner in low sec, steal ore, threaten someone for money etc. "It's part of the game, deal with it" is what I hear most of the time. The question I want to ask you is this: Why do you leave your morality at login screen? Don't get me wrong, pvp and such is obviously okay when both parties do it for fun and enjoyment, which is the case with most pvp in EVE. Sure, no one likes to lose but that's part of the fun too. But when you kill a lone miner who's not even in a player corp that's just evil. .....

Sigh, why fw mate, WHY



Yes, your gain in game. Its a form of tactical advantage.

How would you ever prove this? Outside of meeting someone outside the game and getting to know them there is no way that I know of.

I will ask YOU what I have asked a few ppl now and NO ONE WILL ANSWER ME.


Lets say you have known one of your corp mates for a great deal of time. They have always been an upstanding corp mate and help you out when you need, are polite on voice coms and are generally pleasent to be around. Would you, having only you in game knowledge of them...

1) Ask them to watch over your kids when your out of town?

2) Invest in a business venture of theirs?

3) Put them as a guardian of your kids in the lack of any other relatives being able to do so (as in over a foster home)?

4) Let them house sit for you?

5) Let them borrow your car?

Please, I really would like to know.

So if we are competing in a game where there is prize money to be won, if I win does that make me morally bankrupt?.

If I successfully bluff you in Poker and take your money, does that make me immoral?

A bluff is making someone believe something that is untrue by misleading them... it is a lie. However this lie is allowed by the game rules, in fact it is encouraged. More importantly, everyone playing IS AWARE OF THIS.

Yes I think its ok as long as within the rules that were initially agreed upon by both parties. I like to play poker. I bluff a lot. Its part of the game, and if someone walks into a poker game not aware that someone might be bluffing, they will be ill prepared to play the game. This is COMPLETELY analogous to EVE, and anyone who doesn't think so is fooling themselves.



My point is that you just admited that unless you actually knew the person you wouldn't invest trust with any real assets you have.

You are saying that though you trust someone in game, this doesn't bear on how you would trust them out of game.

It is equivalent to say that even though someone might be a complete asshat in game it has no bearing on their behavior out of game.

They might be a nice person, they might be a sociopath, none of it can be determined from in game actions. *Edit: so it is meaningless to attempt to pass judgement based on how you act in game.

Cearain, you have your head right up your ass atm. That is exactly what a bluff is. It is a straight out lie to the other player. On top of that many use words or facial expressions in the attempt to trick their opponent. I am not even going to respond to the latter part of this due to how outrageuos you are trying to take this.

If you want to argue that the principles of the game are immoral (see c*ck fights) then thats one thing, but GL making that sale about eve.

My best friend used to kick my ass in this game all the time, including many others. So has my son and my wife.

We understand that what is done in game is part of the game.

You apparently, do not.

You are also projecting real life friendship and trust into a situation that normally involves purely in game relationships, where the very nature of the game makes no bones about the ruthlessness of the rules.

Again, you are projecting.

And quite frankly, you have your head up your ass.

Actually, he didn't.
You're just projecting again.

GÇ£My best friend used to kick my ass in this game all the time, including many others. So has my son and my wife.

We understand that what is done in game is part of the game.GÇ¥

If you had any morals you wouldn't make such bad posts.

Your posting is so bad it killed the thread. Hope you're happy.

Just because something is allowed by the game rules doesn't mean its moral. Lets say CCP said that if you know someone is a certain race in real life then you *must* refer to them by a racial slur everytime you see them in local. CCP would make this a rule so its "part of the game." Yet you know those people of whatever race are really hurt by this. Is it ok?

Why not?

You lost the argument several posts back. At this point you're just bringing shame to your family by continuing to post.

Indeed it was. Irrational hyperbole based on flawed premises usually works that way.

Why would I answer a question about real life when we're talking about in-game morals?

You do understand that you're asking about real life here, right? Or are you still unable to distinguish the two?

It's part of the game, simple as that really. There are many, many games out there that cater to people who want to be moral white knights, but eve is not one of them. Eve is not JUST a sandbox, it is often described (by its creators no less) as a harsh, unforgiving universe. Hell one of their recent ads featured a guy who cripples an entire alliance by stealing all of their stuff. It's not just that it's allowed; it's that it's considered one of the fundamental aspects of the game. You don't whine about morality when someone kills off your rook in chess, so don't whine when someone kills off your barge in eve.

I have to hand it to you...most people when getting thrashed this bad on the forums would have quietly faded away to lick their wounds and contemplate where they went wrong in life but you are standing firm and not letting little things like logic or the truth get in the way of your badposting. You're an example to us all.

. I answered the question you laid out before, .....

Just because something is allowed by the game rules doesn't mean its moral. Lets say CCP said that if you know someone is a certain race in real life then you *must* refer to them by a racial slur everytime you see them in local. CCP would make this a rule so its "part of the game." Yet you know those people of whatever race are really hurt by this. Is it ok?

Why not?

Take a friend or family member that you would trust with all the things you listed. Take your best friend. And lets say you invited them to play eve. They constantly told you they would never take your stuff in eve that you could trust them. You had a corp together and kept both your stuff in the corp hangar lets say about 50 billion worth. Then one day you were out doing a mission with him/her and he/she ganks your ship. You go back and see that all your stuff in the corporate hangars are gone. He/she tells you he did this so that he/she wouldn't have to pay for the subscription anymore.

Now what would your reaction be?
A) as though they bluffed you in poker? "yeah nice one haha its part of the game"
or
B) would you perhaps not trust them quite so much anymore?

People answered your questions. You just didn't get the answers you wanted.

Hey, wouldn't us disagreeing with you and causing you to get angry make us sociopaths as well?

I mean, if your hurt feelings are the only indicator if something done to you was moral or not shouldn't just the fact that we disagree with you be a sign that we are all psychopaths?

"Anybody who doesn't agree with my ignorant, narrow-minded views on morality is just typing a bunch of words."

Why?

We are in the forums. Are you mad?
If so, does that make me a psycopath?

Which makes as much sense as saying someone who blows up a mining ship in-game is a psychopath. This thread is only funny because you are trying so hard...never stop posting.

GǪRussian roulette is a game. Everyone agrees to the rules and know that they might die during the game. Again, many would say that this is game is immoral.

Lets throwing lying to people and blowing up internet spaceships into the same boat. At best what you can argue is intentional deception in an effort to acquire in game items that may or may not have out of game value (this tie is EXTREMELY tentative at best, so don't ride the "acquire items to pay for game time" argument into the sun). So, you are saying then that the act of deceit being allowed and supported in a game makes the game immoral. Well, since most board games rely on this as a strategic option, you are going to argue most games in existence. The very fact that they are so commonly played shows that those who are upset (really really upset) are misinterpreting the game or are simply bad sports.

The racial slur argument is completely out of context, because the game does not do this. If it did, it would be promoting a hate crime and probably would not survive the lawsuit. Have you ever played a *** game? Didn't think so. Stop applying these extreme examples to something that goes beyond the scope of the argument..

A) Lets take your direct example. Have I been bluffed by a friend in poker for over $100? Yes. Was I angry when it happened? Yes. Did I call him immoral for the play? Of course not.

Lets put this in EVE now. A friend just robbed me of 50bil. Would I be pissed. OH HELL YES. Would I show up at his place screaming bloody murder about what how evil I thought he was. Of course not. Would I trust him with my in game assets anymore. Of course not, I would have already begun plotting my vengeance (and it would be sweet).

Would I hit the bars with them? Check on how things are with his family? Shoot the sh*t from time to time? Talk about EVE? Of course I would, cause there has been some REAL F*CKING things we have gone through that extend BEYOND A GAME. You know...REALITY.

B) Trust them how? In game. LOL. No. I wouldn't loan them an ibis. Trust them to come over and house sit? Yes I would. They made a great play. Just because you have and adversary doesn't mean they can't be your friend. My dad has kicked my ass in chess for years, we get along great. .

BTW I am still surprised you don't see the point of my earlier example. Why would you think you can't trust someone on game form their trespasses, but you wouldn't trust them out of game if you trusted them with all your assets in game? Unless you don't trust people at all. Or, you couldn't trust someone in a game without trusting them as a person, in which case make sure never play poker together.

Cearain, I am not going to persue this any farther man.

I just want to say, in all seriousness, if this is how you feel about this game, you need to take a serious look into how you separate game play vs relationships in reality. There is a large difference between the two but the line is blurred way too much for you man.

Honestly not trolling. EVE might really not be the place for you. Poker, losing isn't that bad. Risk, you lose a couple hours. EVE you can lose years. That level of risk is why most of us feel so much excitement vs the other games. The amount of emotional investment you have in this game might be a detriment to your health if the chips fall in the wrong way.

....

1: I have already answered your question directly. To repeat myself...

No, I would be at most slightly irritated if a friend in real life put one over on me and zapped my assets. Just as I would not take it overly seriously if he broke a non-aggression pact in RISK, or successfully bluffed me in Poker. It is the nature of the GAME, and has zero reflection on his behavior in reality.

You have pointedly ignored that response for the last several pages of this thread, even when it was directly pointed out that I had answered you. Which brings me to my second point....

can't resist. I have. Had a huge heist a while ago. Told me boss, my wife, friends (got a few into the game from the story), even my mom. You know what every person I have ever told response to it was?

Laughter. Everyone thought it was funny. They also thought it was funny that people got so heated about this. You can label it immoral all you want but you would just be again reaffirming my point. The RPG community might take sympathy on this, everyone else is just laughing at how serious you are taking it.

What you constantly seem to fail to grasp the the concept of roleplaying.

You aren't actually able to fly around in spaceships, you are playing that role in a roleplaying game.

Now that we've covered the unlikely example of your "RL best friend back stabbing you in EVE", lets go on to a more common situation.

Do you think it's a common occurance?

It's perfectly acceptable for this to happen in EVE if that is the type of relationship you have with your best friend, but you have tried to base extensive trolling on this fairly uncommon example.

Back in your box.

That would depend entirely on your relationship with your best friend and how competetive it is. For many guys, who have been buddies for years, it would be the source of much amusement (once the yelling stopped).

Also, losing all of your assets in EVE ruins absolutely nothing unless you place a disproportionate value on non-existant items that don't belong to you to begin with.

Most people play this game for fun.

It isn't any different, I never said it was. It's simply less common, primarily because it takes longer to set up.

Nice try though. I particularly like the way you avoided commenting on any of the actual points made in either post you referenced.

Cerain's arguments about the friends you keep goes along these same lines. This is a condition you are placing on the type of relationships you allow. Which is why if you friends stole from you it would be considered a violation of your social contract with your buds, while Ranger and I have no such agreement with out associates. However, these points are outside the scope of the actions in game (soley) having anything to do with what kind of person is behind the keyboard....

A lot of ppl begin to lose focus of this when voice coms are used, because you are talking to each other, shooting the sh*t about sports, women, etc. They forget that these things are still being done in the context of the game. A competitive, unforgiving game....

EvE is only hardcore and unforgiving if you try to play it in a civil manner. If you use all the tools at your disposal, it becomes fairly easymode, but also immersion-breaking. You merely have to activate multiple accounts to invalidate sec status mechanics, grief and scam to your heart's content with disposable or seemingly innocuous characters.

All the more proof that gank- and griefbears do not play the game as a means in itself, but only to make people mad over the internet. They don't care about immersion, since they use both positive and negative characters, disposable ones, and the relations between those characters make no sense whatsoever except in a metagaming context.


Nobody claims moral high ground, rather, every EvE player with common sense is disturbed by the fact there's no tool to get back at players playing this metagame, since chain of accounts are not assessed ingame. For example, the market alt of a gankbear semi-afk gatecamper (who waits for the gate activation signal while running missions on his positive sec status alt) should be recognized as such, and there should be a possibility to hide his market activity, so players who have a problem with him could boycott his trade.


.

I hate to burst everyones bubbles. But, in EVE Online, you can get back at those that have wronged you in an unscrupulous way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0I&feature=relmfu

I hate to burst everyones bubbles. But, in EVE Online, you can get back at those that have wronged you in an unscrupulous way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0I&feature=relmfu

....
/thread

And your point is?