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Risk
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:00:00 -
[1]
Reason im posting this in a new thread and not commenting on the 'micro-miner' problem is because there is a seperate sticky thread which involves micro-miners, second, macroing isnt 100% of the problem its 50% of the problem, let me explain.
Typical farming work is done via person to person, as its been explained in interviews and by chinese players themselves in the buisness, most work is done in what we call a sweatshop, to them its more like a huge LAN center, usually being 20-50 computers. Usually accounts are controlled by the sweatshop companies and they hire people to come in and play already made accounts. In WoW, the typical farmer logs on, heads to a farming spot and farms. In one interview a sweatshop owner said that his employees are required to make 5g a minute. Most of the time they dont use macros, WoW really isnt macro friendly, so most work is done by hand. The crime in this tho is that multiple people are playing the same account, so if a Gm ever sends them a tell, someone is always there to respond.
Second way of farming, and this seems to be the plague of FFXI and Eve is macroing. both are macro friendly and little to nowork on the computer needs to be done to make cash. Eve is micro friendly because it uses a wonderful language called python, and its exploitable.
So my suggestion to help the economy from completely crashing and ruining a perfectly good game is to make the following changes in the EULA.
#1. Only account owners may play on the account. Varification of this could be random different ways:
a. If the guy is playing 23 hours a day, its probably not: 1 guy.
b. CS have the ability ingame to request credit card numbers (last 4 digits), SS# or
some form of identification.
#2. Punishment for macro-mining and account penalties.
a. Let them know that if one account gets banned. All credit cards, phone numbers,
however Eve does billing now, all accounts that share the same information are
banned.
#3. Macro protection. (couple ideas) - Force the player to constantly re-act when mining:
a. Use rats to your advantage. Allow rats to follow miners warping to other belts
and planets once attacked. Allow rat spawns to notice players farming the same
belts for large amounts of time (IE: 4 hours or more), have larger rats spawn and
spawn more frequently (of course adjust the loot so this cant be exploitable)
b. Require feedback from the miner while mining, this could be anything, ill let you
figure out the lore to use it, but require automated checks random times by the
game. Have a npc send a game mail to a player with a code usable for 12 hours,
at random points when mining a communication or box appears that you must type
into that code.
c. More feedback: force mining lasers to have to align for mining or better results.
These ways could be typing something into a window, or moving your ship to another
location given by the game, maybe as a red dot or something. Have targetting
limitations on is like a pod. Not usable in the overview (this is something
macroers love to exploit).
#4. Enforce belt/system camping rules.
a. Disallow players to mine-camp belts or systems for large amounts of time. Some
extreme number that wouldnt effect legit miners, but only effect macroers or
farmers. Times would be like: 8-10+ hours.
#5. Python Script Injection. This obviously is the best way to create a macro-mining
script. I dont know the server-side capabilities but something needs to be done.
This seems to be a growing trend and if it isnt stopped, its only gonna get worse.
I would love to get some feedback from the devs or even mods on the issue, but player comments are welcome also :) Thank you for reading my ideas and considering them.
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Fooball
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:03:00 -
[2]
The EULA is already against selling virtual goods outside of the game for real money. And it hasn't stopped them.
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Sergio Ling
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:03:00 -
[3]
you've really not thought this through. and you've created a separate post. you, sir, are an idiot
Malthros Zenobia Says - You: , Us: |
MysticNZ
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:25:00 -
[4]
I'd just like to inform you that it's not python that the macro miners are exploiting.
I've seen the program in action, all it does is detect colors on the screen.
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Rooman Black
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:26:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
#1. Only account owners may play on the account. Varification of this could be random different ways:
a. If the guy is playing 23 hours a day, its probably not: 1 guy.
b. CS have the ability ingame to request credit card numbers (last 4 digits), SS# or
some form of identification.
Why would the farmers who setup the account not have access to this? Make no sense at all.
All your suggestions involve the player having to jump through hoops none of which will stop a macro miner, just make life worse for normal players.
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Rule one of eve club, don't talk about eve club
Rule two of eve club....*click* |
Risk
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:28:00 -
[6]
Originally by: MysticNZ
I'd just like to inform you that it's not python that the macro miners are exploiting.
I've seen the program in action, all it does is detect colors on the screen.
Various programs for instance xunleashed and actools both have capabilities of color and mouse movement. However, the better scripts, up to 10x more effecient are using python script injecting to do.
ive seen scripts made to abuse the overview, record mouse clicks, everything. Colors is just the basics and its not very efficient in terms of macroing in eve because the background of space really fubars the color recignition.
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MysticNZ
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Risk
Originally by: MysticNZ
I'd just like to inform you that it's not python that the macro miners are exploiting.
I've seen the program in action, all it does is detect colors on the screen.
Various programs for instance xunleashed and actools both have capabilities of color and mouse movement. However, the better scripts, up to 10x more effecient are using python script injecting to do.
ive seen scripts made to abuse the overview, record mouse clicks, everything. Colors is just the basics and its not very efficient in terms of macroing in eve because the background of space really fubars the color recignition.
I highly doubt python injection is going on. The main macro miners are using xunleashed, which infact, works really well, just go read their forums.
BTW: To all of those thinking i'm a macro miner, no, i'm not. I reported this program to CCP over a year ago when the first eve scripts started to emerge.
There is one script out there which is very good, can control many people, run haulers, defenders etc, which is what they are using.
The python injection would be new to me.
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Risk
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:31:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Risk on 12/01/2006 22:31:28
Originally by: Rooman Black
Quote:
#1. Only account owners may play on the account. Varification of this could be random different ways:
a. If the guy is playing 23 hours a day, its probably not: 1 guy.
b. CS have the ability ingame to request credit card numbers (last 4 digits), SS# or
some form of identification.
Why would the farmers who setup the account not have access to this? Make no sense at all.
All your suggestions involve the player having to jump through hoops none of which will stop a macro miner, just make life worse for normal players.
A typical account might see up to 20-30 sweatshop players, in china they can only do so many hours a day, are you going to give all 20-30 sweatshop players access to you SS# and credit card number?
Also its an idea.. ONE SINGLE IDEA out of how many posted? dont get fixated on one. Also what about the 23 hour a day thing? obviously if the 1 player per account was changed, ie: only the account owner can play, its feasably impossible biologically for a person to play a video game for 23 hours a day 7 days a week. Again, this might not be the end all solution, but its a step in the right direction.
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Risk
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:34:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Risk on 12/01/2006 22:38:06
Originally by: MysticNZ
Originally by: Risk
Originally by: MysticNZ
I'd just like to inform you that it's not python that the macro miners are exploiting.
I've seen the program in action, all it does is detect colors on the screen.
Various programs for instance xunleashed and actools both have capabilities of color and mouse movement. However, the better scripts, up to 10x more effecient are using python script injecting to do.
ive seen scripts made to abuse the overview, record mouse clicks, everything. Colors is just the basics and its not very efficient in terms of macroing in eve because the background of space really fubars the color recignition.
I highly doubt python injection is going on. The main macro miners are using xunleashed, which infact, works really well, just go read their forums.
BTW: To all of those thinking i'm a macro miner, no, i'm not. I reported this program to CCP over a year ago when the first eve scripts started to emerge.
There is one script out there which is very good, can control many people, run haulers, defenders etc, which is what they are using.
The python injection would be new to me.
Ive seen python injection, and its insane. Custom made macro-script windows, which allow you to show how you want your script to handle, pretty much undetectable. Hell i have a video of one in action but dont have the bandwith to host it, and the place you get it from needs an account to logon and download it. Injection is 100% possible and its in use. Common, real macroers arent going to give their programs out free or cheap, xunleashed is junk compared to what is out there.
EDIT:
LINK TO PYTHON INJECTION SCRIPT
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MysticNZ
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:38:00 -
[10]
Well imo then, the client should be checking all the windows titlebars active on the system then to detect it, simlar to what wow is using but not a seperate program.
If they are going to these lengths then I suspect we are going to have some real problems soon.
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Rooman Black
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:48:00 -
[11]
Gah don't put links to this stuff up in the forums.
Your just going to spawn future macro'ers.
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Rule one of eve club, don't talk about eve club
Rule two of eve club....*click* |
MysticNZ
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Posted - 2006.01.12 22:54:00 -
[12]
Edited by: MysticNZ on 12/01/2006 22:54:41
Originally by: Rooman Black
Gah don't put links to this stuff up in the forums.
Your just going to spawn future macro'ers.
A quick google search for eve+macro will give you alot more information.
I think it's pretty common knowledge.
Also, all these macro programs, you have to pay for.
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Gstomp19
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Posted - 2006.01.12 23:08:00 -
[13]
i would never play a game if you were required to answer a person your ss number in-game
All it takes is one person to fake there a dev to get your ss number and cc number then your pretty much screwed.
way to much of a security risk.
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Ominus Decre
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Posted - 2006.01.12 23:20:00 -
[14]
Two great ideas hidden within your suggestions:
ALLOW FOR RATS TO FOLLOW PLAYERS TO OTHER BELTS...
REQUIRING MINNING LASERS TO BE ALIGNED...
Having an increased AI where rats will persist beyond a simple jump sounds like fun! Down side is establishing the parameters to permit for this experiance work "as intended" as you present it. Couldn't macroMinners just set up an alternate jumppoint within the system such as "X" so they are doing something like:
Belt A / x / Belt B / X / Belt C / X / etc...
I think the aligning of minning lasers is actually an ingenious concept such as it provides for a mini game to compliment the experiance sought by those who actually enjoy minning. *ahem*carbears*ahem
The MinningLaserAlignment is a winWin in my book!
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Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2006.01.12 23:21:00 -
[15]
ccp should make macroing legal ingame, then no one would be breaking the rules
OMG!!! sig removed without a note, WTF?!?!?! - Tenacha |
DukDodgerz
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Posted - 2006.01.12 23:28:00 -
[16]
seems to me that some people that have posted in this thread know a little to much about how to use CHEATS and MACROS...maybe CCP should watch YOUR accounts too.
seriously, I believe there is a forum rule on discussing HOW to cheat in eve...
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Risk
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Posted - 2006.01.12 23:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: DukDodgerz
seems to me that some people that have posted in this thread know a little to much about how to use CHEATS and MACROS...maybe CCP should watch YOUR accounts too.
seriously, I believe there is a forum rule on discussing HOW to cheat in eve...
Know your enemy.
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Swedish Bob
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Posted - 2006.01.13 00:12:00 -
[18]
Really the python injection would be a great tool to improve eve as well. I'd love it if I could have my own external tool for organizing and activating BMs, getting solar system navigation info. A better system for setting up waypoints or being able to store and recall custom paths. It all depends on how you use it, though it is all against the EULA as it is written now. Also being able to have a better standing system with more information would be nice as well.
The code injection could probably be eliminated, but I wouldn't count on it happening anytime soon.
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MysticNZ
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Posted - 2006.01.13 00:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: DukDodgerz
seems to me that some people that have posted in this thread know a little to much about how to use CHEATS and MACROS...maybe CCP should watch YOUR accounts too.
seriously, I believe there is a forum rule on discussing HOW to cheat in eve...
Did you read what I said? You can find all this info within 5 minutes on google.
I have nothing to hide, the only reason I knew about xunleashed was that my brother used it in wow and told me when eve got intergrated into the program.
As soon as I found that out I emailed the script, username and password to cpp and never got a response.
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Risk
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Posted - 2006.01.13 02:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Swedish Bob
Really the python injection would be a great tool to improve eve as well. I'd love it if I could have my own external tool for organizing and activating BMs, getting solar system navigation info. A better system for setting up waypoints or being able to store and recall custom paths. It all depends on how you use it, though it is all against the EULA as it is written now. Also being able to have a better standing system with more information would be nice as well.
The code injection could probably be eliminated, but I wouldn't count on it happening anytime soon.
Python injection is nearly untraceable and too effective, your basically adding game features that arent suppose to be there, the exploits could be limitless. Definatly needs to be considered a top priority before this game turns out to be diablo 2 or another hackers-win blizzard game.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.01.13 03:28:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Risk
a. If the guy is playing 23 hours a day, its probably not: 1 guy.
Eve has no timeout. If someone logs in after DT, there is nothing preventing the character for then idling for 23 hours and being dconned by the next DT. This does NOT indicate a macro.
The rest of your ideas are ignorant of how things work in the same fashion.
Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Dakath
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Posted - 2006.01.13 03:41:00 -
[22]
The idea about GMs asking for credit card numbers ingame is an invitation to credit card fraud.
Can you spell P-H-I-S-H-I-N-G? I thought you could.
VERY bad idea.
LAG!Ö |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2006.01.13 03:46:00 -
[23]
Sigh.
Like people have pointed out, Using macros to get an ingame advantage is a violation of the EULA and you can be banned for doing it.
Selling or buying ingame comodities for real life cash or comodities is a violation of the EULA and can result in a banning.
The EULA covers both, the problem is that it is close to impossible for CCP to identify a player using a bot or macros and completely impossible for a player.
Finding isk sellers or buyers is easier but still hard.
The only way to really get rid of the sellers is to ***** down on the buyers.
As for macro/bot users I think doing such is by far more common among common players that people are willing to admit, I meen whats the harm in creating a program to loot you own cans or one that makes mining more effective?
As long as your not one of the ebil macromining isk sellers there is really no crime involved right?
wrong, its the common players that have to stop this kind of stuff.
#1: stop buying isk
#2: stop using macros and bots
#3: if you spot someone you belive is a macrominer report him/her to CCP and let CCP deal with it, there is no way whatsoever for you to prove that its not just a bunch of people on the other end that simply dont care to talk to you.
As for what you choose to do after that... feel free to take any ingame action allowed within the confinements of the game, if you want to suicide them, fine do so but stop spamming the forums with pointless posts.
We all already know there are macrominers out there!
We all already know there are isk sellers out there!
Its not news.
What steps will be taken by CCP is completely upp to CCP to decide.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.01.13 03:53:00 -
[24]
Human nature dictates some people will macro, and some will ebay.
Actually, a LOT will ebay.
Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
MysticNZ
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Posted - 2006.01.13 05:00:00 -
[25]
Holy crap. That video is nuts... that has to be stopped.
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Specture
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Posted - 2006.01.13 05:20:00 -
[26]
all you need to do is ban their credit card. But CCP (I don't blame them for this) are making money off of them, so why should they ban them, they arn't taking profits from their company. I dont think the number of people quiting the game bacuse of macro miners > macro miners will ever be greater. So what can they do? Give players the ability to enforce the destruction of macro miners OR something like only 5 barges alowed to a belt in empire. Forceing macro miners to .4 systems and then under the rule of the pirate players
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Berak FalCheran
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Posted - 2006.01.13 05:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Risk
stupid stuff
SHUT UP
stop being so damn paranoid about the 'chinese' -- this is just blatent racism and paranoia.
In short: Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.
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Partisan Ograe
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Posted - 2006.01.13 05:54:00 -
[28]
Trying to make rules and fixes against farming and macromining is like gun lwas in the US the only people they hurt are the legitimate ones On the streets if your going to get a gun you aint going to Walmart to get you know what i mean? same with this stuff it doesn't matter how we try to get rid of them they will still persist you have to get rid of what causes people to do this which unfortunately will never happen
** So, I like mining, whats the big deal? ** |
Ankanos
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Posted - 2006.01.13 07:25:00 -
[29]
to the OP
about the only thing all of your suggstions do
is punish the regular players and make mining hell
for macros and Joe Miner alike.
you really autta read the forum more often. you'll find
at least 5 threads that suggest pretty much exactly
what you have proposed in some fashion or another.
there is no way to handle macros with
breaking the game for everyone else.
in the mean time just *****and pillage
any and all macro miners you find.
its fun and provides a service to the
community and your strip miner collection.
-ank
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Dahin
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Posted - 2006.01.13 07:30:00 -
[30]
you guys are confusing farmers with scripters.
Farmers are mostly supervised computers with some script support (hence they are responsive when they need to), they are much like the common miner who secretly employs the auto-drag-to-can program we all know of.
On the other hand scripters do not have the supervision needed, and therefore their script will crumble as soon as something unexpected happens. They are also very easy to get caught by GM's since they are never responsive.
sure, the two look alike a lot in the begining because they are both employing a script at that moment. But he difference is that the person is there to foil and banstick attempts.
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