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xenorx
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Posted - 2006.01.13 15:06:00 -
[31]
Unfortunatly I doubt we will see HAC prices fall. It is a player driven economy and the players with the prints are driven by greed. Cant fault them for that. If I had 100 ppl beating my door down for a ship and I could only produce one every 36 hours I wouldnt leave a 100+ million in profit on the table.
CCP really need to get a handle on the situation. With the growing player base the demands placed on the very few T2 producers will only increase while they cannot increase production to keep up with the increased demand.
A good start would be for ccp to drop more prints. Perhaps double the number of each print in circulation. Use the existing lottery so those ppl who have been researching forever with nothing to show for it might get something.
Secondly they should cut the production time in half. A HAC produced in 18 hours instead of 36.
Those two things alone would have a significant impact on prices.
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Sieur NewT
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Posted - 2006.01.13 15:19:00 -
[32]
i am ok a cruiser could not equal a BS but its a T2 ship !
so it really should have something impressive for him , maybe to increase a little more the damage, from 5% to 10 % for drones, currently the +5km is pushing it more in the "rushing" way and +50 m¦ drone bay i beleive is a way not loosing all his firepower too fast.
With price going down it could maybe go to something near the BS price but still NO INSURANCE so i see very few use for this class of ship, currently i only see them for PVP fast assault ship that will flee after few time or rush to make a long list of jump.
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Sauvez les castors, mangez la foret! |
slothe
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Posted - 2006.01.13 15:24:00 -
[33]
i only use a hac for npcing now as they own npc easily.
theres no point using them for pvp at current prices, when t1 cruisers are so good nowadays and bs cheaper to replace and better.
i can only see prices going up unless t2 battlecruisers are brought in. then the price may stabilise.
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slothe
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Posted - 2006.01.13 15:27:00 -
[34]
 Originally by: xenorx
Unfortunatly I doubt we will see HAC prices fall. It is a player driven economy and the players with the prints are driven by greed.
i dont think thats fair. most producers tried to sell them at reasonable prices. resellers have been a problem, who bulk bought from producers and sold them at a profit.
the reality is prices match demand. if their too expensive people wont buy them. its purchasers pulling the prices up not sellers.
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HUGO DRAX
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Posted - 2006.01.13 15:27:00 -
[35]
Edited by: HUGO DRAX on 13/01/2006 15:27:38
Real interesting what the Naga guy mentioned regarding the number of prints in public production. Sounds like a large portion of the prints are in Alliance hands for internal Alliance member production. Smart of alliances to do that. My Deimos should be out of the NAGA factory in May lol
Dont just complain, do something. Channel macrointel meet with likeminded folks, spottings,intel |
Yarek Balear
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Posted - 2006.01.13 16:57:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Yarek Balear on 13/01/2006 16:58:17
As far as I understand it, the basic reason for HAC prices continuing to rise (and this will not abate for a very long time) is for two base reasons:
1. Small number of BPOs
2. Time to make T2 BPC is extremely high.
The second problem is the main reason in my opinion. If there were a small number of BPOs, but BPCs could be churned out at a high rate, the owners of the BPOs would be able to make more ISK (and more easily) through volume sales of BPCs than through manufacturing ships.
At present, I believe it's quicker to build a ship than copy a blueprint. This leads to few manufacturers and extremely high ship prices (the BPC or run is effectively the bulk of all of these ship costs at present). The potential drop in RAM prices will have very little (if any) effect on ship prices while these issues exist.
The upshot is - reduce T2 BP copying time to 25% of the manufacture time and owners will be able to sell four times as many BPCs as ships they can make and they'll start to appear on escrow and gradually drop in price.
EDIT: Arithmetic corrected once I changed the percentage above...
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Mimio
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Posted - 2006.01.13 17:14:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Sieur NewT
i am ok a cruiser could not equal a BS but its a T2 ship !
True.
Quote:
so it really should have something impressive for him , maybe to increase a little more the damage, from 5% to 10 % for drones, currently the +5km is pushing it more in the "rushing" way and +50 m¦ drone bay i beleive is a way not loosing all his firepower too fast.
Why so small numbers? 10%? Feeee. Let'c call for real power, 25% for drones!
Problem not with ship. It is good, reliable and effective. Problem with market/economy/industry T2 in Eve. Imagine that this heavy cruiser costs let's say 50-60kk.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2006.01.13 17:27:00 -
[38]
Originally by: slothe
Originally by: xenorx
Unfortunatly I doubt we will see HAC prices fall. It is a player driven economy and the players with the prints are driven by greed.
i dont think thats fair. most producers tried to sell them at reasonable prices. resellers have been a problem, who bulk bought from producers and sold them at a profit.
the reality is prices match demand. if their too expensive people wont buy them. its purchasers pulling the prices up not sellers.
Fair or not it is true. If it cost them 30-40 million to build them and they are selling them for around 160 million thus making a 300+% profit on each one it is greed. Like it or not.
Instead of just picking one line out of my post try reading the whole thing. You will see that I was not being overly critical at all of the producers. I dont blame them. CCP is the one who has ****ed up the system and I offered two suggestions on how to increase the supply to help offset the increasing demand.
Quote:
Unfortunatly I doubt we will see HAC prices fall. It is a player driven economy and the players with the prints are driven by greed. Cant fault them for that. If I had 100 ppl beating my door down for a ship and I could only produce one every 36 hours I wouldnt leave a 100+ million in profit on the table.
CCP really need to get a handle on the situation. With the growing player base the demands placed on the very few T2 producers will only increase while they cannot increase production to keep up with the increased demand.
A good start would be for ccp to drop more prints. Perhaps double the number of each print in circulation. Use the existing lottery so those ppl who have been researching forever with nothing to show for it might get something.
Secondly they should cut the production time in half. A HAC produced in 18 hours instead of 36.
Those two things alone would have a significant impact on prices.
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Snodipous
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Posted - 2006.01.13 18:25:00 -
[39]
If CCP likes the system they have in place now where only a very few researchers (~20 I think?) get the BPOs for T2 items, this problem is never going to be resolved. So why not seed 20 BPOs, as they have been doing, wait 30 days or 60 days, and then seed another 200? That way the producers get to enjoy a semi-monopoly as they do now, but only for a limited time. The system as it is currently set up makes Eve more fun for a very few people, and less fun for a lot more people.
In the real world there are safe-guards in place (anti-trust legislation, limited terms on patents) to break and prevent monopolies. CCP is the closest thing the Eve world has to a government, as 'citizens' we should be able to expect help on this sort of matter from them.
just my semi-incoherent 0.02 isk
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Gort
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Posted - 2006.01.13 20:14:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Yarek Balear
Edited by: Yarek Balear on 13/01/2006 16:58:17
As far as I understand it, the basic reason for HAC prices continuing to rise (and this will not abate for a very long time) is for two base reasons:
1. Small number of BPOs
2. Time to make T2 BPC is extremely high.
The second problem is the main reason in my opinion. If there were a small number of BPOs, but BPCs could be churned out at a high rate, the owners of the BPOs would be able to make more ISK (and more easily) through volume sales of BPCs than through manufacturing ships.
At present, I believe it's quicker to build a ship than copy a blueprint. This leads to few manufacturers and extremely high ship prices (the BPC or run is effectively the bulk of all of these ship costs at present). The potential drop in RAM prices will have very little (if any) effect on ship prices while these issues exist.
The upshot is - reduce T2 BP copying time to 25% of the manufacture time and owners will be able to sell four times as many BPCs as ships they can make and they'll start to appear on escrow and gradually drop in price.
EDIT: Arithmetic corrected once I changed the percentage above...
Spot on about the copying time.
For 36 hours to build, one can make a one run copy in seven days! Let's see, 36 hours... 7 days.
mmmmk.
However, if copying time is to be shortened, CCP needs to be careful that they don't bork the HAC market the way the BS market was, through cheap, ubiquitous copies.
Unless they just want the whole game to be a HAC-o-matic, with every George Jetson flying one.
Regards,
Gort
Makeup artist for the dead |
xenorx
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Posted - 2006.01.13 21:05:00 -
[41]
Another idea on how CCP could help the problem is to have R&D agents make BPC offers in exchange for your research points. Currently its an all or nothing system. You either get a BPO offer within the first week a new T2 item is seeded or you get nothing at all for months or years.
In the mean time the pool of research points continues to grow endlessly thus continuing to reduce the chances a player will ever get a BPO. If R&D agents started giving out offers for BPC in exchange for research points it would be benificial to the system in several ways.
The total pool of research points would go down thus giving the players who held onto thier research points a better chance of getting a BPO when the new seedings came out. It would also benifit the market by increasing the suppy of T2 items in game from the ppl who cash in research points for the BPC's.
I also think that CCP needs to seed BPO's out continusly over time. After seeding the original group of BPO's they need to drop 2-3 BPO's into the research pool every month over the course of time. It increases supply and gives ppl hope that someday they might get lucky. As it currently stands if you dont get it in that one week you are never going to get anything.
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Weirda
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Posted - 2006.01.13 22:27:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Snodipous
If CCP likes the system they have in place now where only a very few researchers (~20 I think?) get the BPOs for T2 items, this problem is never going to be resolved.
fortunately they do not like the current situation and have stated that many time. some even have it in their sig.
@op
it will take time for prices to go down as producers start using newer/cheaper stock to produce... some who don't have huge stock will undercut (by a few mils) others that are on the market... the undercutting will nudge things down.
tbh there are many regions with a lot on market that aren't selling at 150+mils. these will be the first market to fall...
@ideas in thread
props for many good idea in thread (increase amount of bpo/reduce production time), rather then only whining. this is a much more positive thread then most! 
it seem like they are really interested in solution that don't have to do with lottery or doubling production of current bpo owners though - even if they may do that as stopgap. they know that eventually those bpo will all be in the same hand again...
the best idea have been like the one just above... limited run bpc that can be bought with RP in between seeding period, and imagine that this will be more of a first step that ccp might take.
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Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.01.14 00:58:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 14/01/2006 01:02:04
Weirda, what you talkin about? Do you know any HAC suppliers without a long backorder? Even Naga has had a 3-6 month waiting list for almost a year now.
In Economic sense prices will raise until the waiting list is shortened to match the availability of HACs. As it stands there are FAR more buyers than there are HACs. That will not hold.
CCP just needs to bake this into the game. I could be playing the market or something by investing in producers. I can think of many ways.
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Mr M
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Posted - 2006.01.14 05:47:00 -
[44]
What's really the problem is that assault cruisers been the flavor of the month for a couple of months now. When the assault frigates where released there where a waitinglist for those. Same thing before that with the interceptors.
As soon as more command and recon ships are produced and people gets the skills to fly them, assault cruisers will drop in popularity and so will the prices.
EVEgeek Geekulators, Mineral Index, and more |
Weirda
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Posted - 2006.01.14 07:05:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 14/01/2006 01:02:04
Weirda, what you talkin about? Do you know any HAC suppliers without a long backorder? Even Naga has had a 3-6 month waiting list for almost a year now.
In Economic sense prices will raise until the waiting list is shortened to match the availability of HACs. As it stands there are FAR more buyers than there are HACs. That will not hold.
CCP just needs to bake this into the game. I could be playing the market or something by investing in producers. I can think of many ways.
there are hacs available everywhere - at inflated price, be them from producer/reseller or whatever...
no - there aren't 15 vagabonds up in rens (there used to be a few a week in pator for 60mils if you timed things right though)...
tbh - Naga is the only 'supplier' that take order that weirda know of... 
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Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
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Basileus
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Posted - 2006.01.14 07:11:00 -
[46]
WTB Cerberus 105 M.
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Syrec
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Posted - 2006.01.14 08:32:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Syrec on 14/01/2006 08:32:24
RAMs were just a cover story so the secret society of T2 cartels could make even more profit. 
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Shugo Kazuma
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Posted - 2006.01.14 10:57:00 -
[48]
I think a good system for the T2 market would be to seed the inital 20 BPOs, then every 3-6 months, seed an additional 5-10 BPOs into the lottery. This way, a continous supply of fresh producers will be entering the market, but not so fast that no one can make a tidy sum fairly fast. By the time the market reaches equilibrium, the next generation of BPO will probably be seeding as well (Ie, Tech3-7).
This would limit any cartels over time, and would allow alliances to maintain their own production without hidering the rest of us.
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WiseMagic
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Posted - 2006.01.14 11:19:00 -
[49]
I say death to all greedy carebears nuff said
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dailyhazard
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Posted - 2006.01.14 11:24:00 -
[50]
now the hac producers have learnt they can sell them for that price they will continue to do so :]
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need a sig tbfh |
Liet Traep
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Posted - 2006.01.29 01:50:00 -
[51]
I saw a sacrilege on sale today for 119 million. i almost threw up.
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Copine Callmeknau
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Posted - 2006.01.29 02:14:00 -
[52]
Vagabond in Lonetrek for 195 Mil  
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With five million sheep in this army
I seem to be the only one fit to command
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.01.29 02:53:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
RAM prices are not what caused HAC prices to go up.
The cerberus was unnerfed, and for the others, people simply wanted more. The main cause probably has to do with NAGA--they accidentally stuffed all their BPOs in one slot, putting them out of action for nearly 2 months.
That was part of it.
The main bit, though, was CCP moving from a modern JIT production system to a 1890's (being generous) parallel production system, which is especially difficult to handle with longer production time items like HAC's.
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Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2006.01.29 03:06:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Dark Shikari
RAM prices are not what caused HAC prices to go up.
The cerberus was unnerfed, and for the others, people simply wanted more. The main cause probably has to do with NAGA--they accidentally stuffed all their BPOs in one slot, putting them out of action for nearly 2 months.
That was part of it.
The main bit, though, was CCP moving from a modern JIT production system to a 1890's (being generous) parallel production system, which is especially difficult to handle with longer production time items like HAC's.
That is true, I use to start long jobs, a year or more, and sell them off as they were produced and buy materials to keep the job going in a JIT fashion. Now I have to have all the materials up front and I have to wait till the entire batch is done before I can sell any. For me, that means that I have two batches a month come out and once a batch is sold, usally within 4 days, it is 10 days till I have more.
This creates fluctations in the market since everyone has the same problem, with constant shortages.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Nessa Aldeen
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Posted - 2006.01.29 11:22:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Liet Traep
I saw a sacrilege on sale today for 119 million. i almost threw up.
People are just greedy. Before the new changes were announced, the Sac was 60-70 now its just ridiculous, 85 to 120 million wth.
Meow. |
000Hunter000
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Posted - 2006.01.29 13:38:00 -
[56]
Jeez, never knew that, i knew it was a pain to make a copy for one, but 7 days? WTH is that?
Damn, i really wanted to build my own cerb so i begged and pleased for someone to sell me one, but i guess thats out of the question.
Well there goes time wasted on training cruiser construction... unless i happen to get a T2 BPO myself someday (hey i can dream right?  )
Well guess i'll be buying me a new cerb once it gets below 100mill. 
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.01.29 13:49:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 29/01/2006 13:49:34
Miri Tirzan - plus before you could escrow the ships to your seller, now you need to go back there and get it out manually. And before you could have someone else with hanger access drop materials into your hanger to keep the BPO running, now you need it all up front...
It's now a case of manufacturing taking the place of other profit, rather than adding profit to your activities. This WILL raise prices, and it makes a lot of T2 frankly not worth building. (i.e. people will sell to the big producers a LOT more)
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Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
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Calleb
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Posted - 2006.01.29 14:06:00 -
[58]
AS far as tech 2 supply goes, (as i understand it anyhow) If demand for any tech 2 item outstrips supply another bpo will be seeded. This is what we where told some time back when peeps where trying to find out the absolute number of bpo. Basicaly this means there is no absolute number of prints.
Now i have a couple of bpo (anathema and megabeam2) and competiton here is high, and prices are low in comparison to other tech 2. So why are there not more suppliers of HAC and AF  . Prices for both are going stoopid. By my recconing profit on an HAC is in the region of 100mill which is a tidy profit per week, even if you can only make half a dozen.
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Countessa D'Marko
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Posted - 2006.01.29 19:15:00 -
[59]
Price spot - Saw a Cerb on the market in Lonetrek this morning for 225 Million Isk ....
The only other one on the market up here is 170mill
Starts to look attractive to put mine back on the market and buy a pair of BS with the money. Face it - for ~ 200 mill you can pic up a pair of Apocs
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Shadow Mancer
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Posted - 2006.01.31 16:00:00 -
[60]
speaking of sanity and insanity on HAC prices
I saw a vagabond on sale in "Forge" today going at 201 mil lol ... anybody seen anything worse? let me know
CEO and Founder of Warriors of Gods |
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