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Ermenegildo Zenya
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:06:00 -
[1]
CCP are u looking into this matter? New iMac with introduction of Intel processors is closer to
PCs than ever, do u consider creating special version of eve-client for that superb machine?
Blizzard with WoW has lalready achieved this challenge - Will u be the next?
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Oventoasted
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:09:00 -
[2]
Macs are the spawn of the Devil!
- - -
MMM MMM toasted
Phoon powa!
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/---\-- * * * *
\__/ ***>-> |
Embattle
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:09:00 -
[3]
Doubt it, they still have much more important things to do and look at.
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That's twice....most probably be three times by next week. |
Ukucia
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:19:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Ukucia on 16/01/2006 01:19:55
A different processor really isn't that much of a porting issue. You just use a different compiler. (assuming same size pointers and other low-level details that are the same between x86 and the Mac version of the PPC)
The issue is the libraries that the software uses. The devs would have to re-write the graphics system to use OpenGL instead of DirectX, no matter what the processor is. Presumably there are also windows-specific constructs in their code, like Win32-style mutexes, that would have to be re-written.
This is also why there's no Eve for Linux-x86 (at least, no native version).
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Darius Shakor
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:22:00 -
[5]
Not only that, but as I understand it (and correct me if I am wrong all you bofs out there) the server side programing would have to be altered to be compatable for this also. In a sharded system like WOW then that is possible by having a Mac only server but running both side by side on a server like TQ would be difficult I imagine, if at all possible without causing major problems for all involved.
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Shakor Clan Information Portal
Every man has a devil. You can never rest until you find it. |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:25:00 -
[6]
If you install Windows on the mac, it should work just fine 
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:27:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Darius Shakor
Not only that, but as I understand it (and correct me if I am wrong all you bofs out there) the server side programing would have to be altered to be compatable for this also. In a sharded system like WOW then that is possible by having a Mac only server but running both side by side on a server like TQ would be difficult I imagine, if at all possible without causing major problems for all involved.
Nope, internet is a standard way of communication that is os independant.
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Darius Shakor
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:29:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Scorpyn
Originally by: Darius Shakor
Not only that, but as I understand it (and correct me if I am wrong all you bofs out there) the server side programing would have to be altered to be compatable for this also. In a sharded system like WOW then that is possible by having a Mac only server but running both side by side on a server like TQ would be difficult I imagine, if at all possible without causing major problems for all involved.
Nope, internet is a standard way of communication that is os independant.
Yeah but I am not talking about the client sending stuff over the internet. I know that the platform doesn't matter there. I mean what the server does with the rewriten code when it finally get it from the client and being able to communicate with a differently coded client as well.
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Shakor Clan Information Portal
Every man has a devil. You can never rest until you find it. |
Justus Imperius
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:33:00 -
[9]
Not to mention the fact they'd have to start a mac technical support group when they are havin trouble with what is already on their hands.
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Scorpyn on 16/01/2006 01:46:57
Originally by: Darius Shakor
Yeah but I am not talking about the client sending stuff over the internet. I know that the platform doesn't matter there. I mean what the server does with the rewriten code when it finally get it from the client and being able to communicate with a differently coded client as well.
Actually there is no difference. 4 is 4 whether it's sent from a mac or from a pc. It's the things that are done before things are sent to the servers that are done differently, not the way the client and the server communicates.
(You seem to be under the impression that code is being sent from the client to be executed on the server, which is completely wrong.)
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Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2006.01.16 01:57:00 -
[11]
Dark Shikari has it right, all you have to do is install Windows on your MacInteltosh. You can pretend it's an emulation program if you like. Buying a copy of Windows solves the whole "shortage of Mac games" problem.
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Bubba Love
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Posted - 2006.01.16 02:53:00 -
[12]
Quote:
4 is 4 whether it's sent from a mac or from a pc.
Actually no! 
A G5 Mac is big endian and when storing 4 as a 32-bit value in memory would be 00 00 00 04. A PC is little endian and would store the same number as 04 00 00 00. So when writing network code one should always 'twiddle' to network byte order or big endian. 
Of course with Intel Mac's the problems of byte ordering goes away.
Actually Ukucia hit the nail on the head - it's mostly a matter of libraries. A dual boot Apple Mac/Windows computer would be my ideal machine.
civire chicks are the best... |
Bubba Love
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Posted - 2006.01.16 03:02:00 -
[13]
Actually Scorpyn, after re-reading what you said I can see that you know what you're talking about. My previous post was unnecessary.
I've seen too many TCP/IP programs that send data over the wire as little endian. Actually I'd bet that EVE sends data out in little endian format.
civire chicks are the best... |
Naal Morno
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Posted - 2006.01.16 03:08:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Naal Morno on 16/01/2006 03:08:24
IF you followed details on differences between new PCs and Intelacs you would now that they use Itanium platform BIOS and are therefore not compatible with any version of windows out there.
Only Windows Vista, might be able to run on Intelacs IF microsoft implements appropriate bootstrap in time... There are no promises though....
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Naal Morno
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Posted - 2006.01.16 03:08:00 -
[15]
IF you followed details on differences between new Intelacs you would now that they use Itanium platform BIOS and are therefore not compatible with any version of windows out there.
Only Windows Vista, might be able to run on Intelacs IF microsoft implements appropriate bootstrap in time... There are no promises though....
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Ankanos
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Posted - 2006.01.16 03:46:00 -
[16]
ccp has stated in the past, they will not produce a mac
based client.
-ank
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Acheron Cyc
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Posted - 2006.01.16 03:53:00 -
[17]
Macs now are PC's with a different OS and pretty looks. Thats about it :P
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"It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both."
Niccolo Machiavelli
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.01.16 03:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Acheron Cyc
Macs now are PC's with a different OS and pretty looks. Thats about it :P
You missed something. They cost twice as much 
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.01.16 03:56:00 -
[19]
Still... they dont feel very Mac-ky anymore. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:03:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Montague Zooma on 16/01/2006 04:04:54
"Phil Schiller, Apple's senior vice-president of worldwide product marketing, said in an interview Tuesday that the company won't sell or support Windows itself, but also hasn't done anything to preclude people from loading Windows onto the machines themselves."
From http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/12/1525238
It's still to early to tell for sure whether they'll run Windows, but I have a sneaking suspicion they'll be able to somehow.
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Ukucia
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bubba Love
Quote:
4 is 4 whether it's sent from a mac or from a pc.
Actually no!
A G5 Mac is big endian and when storing 4 as a 32-bit value in memory would be 00 00 00 04. A PC is little endian and would store the same number as 04 00 00 00. So when writing network code one should always 'twiddle' to network byte order or big endian.
Of course with Intel Mac's the problems of byte ordering goes away.
Actually Ukucia hit the nail on the head - it's mostly a matter of libraries. A dual boot Apple Mac/Windows computer would be my ideal machine.
Technically, endian doesn't preclude a mac-based client. When writing your network-based program, you pick one endian. The non-compliant platform changes the byte order just before sending/just after receiving from the network. It's a fairly trivial part of porting. It's the same way that your web browser, on windows, can see a web page on a Unix server.
(Oh, and a 4 is a 4 in either endian...just send it as a byte instead of a short or long.  )
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:10:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 16/01/2006 04:10:53
Apple knows one thing, they cannot win MS-Windows or PCs? Only one way to increase Mac-users are to eventually give people who have PCs to have the ability to install and run Mac. Still a long way to go because a Mac is about having MacOS with all the hardware approved by Apple. The day, MacOS start to do generic PCs, we may even see MacOS behaving as nice as Windows.
I can be wrong but I have seen this coming from a long time ago. Ditching PPC is a step into soaking Windows dominance over PCs.
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Ukucia
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:12:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Montague Zooma
Edited by: Montague Zooma on 16/01/2006 04:04:54
"Phil Schiller, Apple's senior vice-president of worldwide product marketing, said in an interview Tuesday that the company won't sell or support Windows itself, but also hasn't done anything to preclude people from loading Windows onto the machines themselves."
From http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/12/1525238
It's still to early to tell for sure whether they'll run Windows, but I have a sneaking suspicion they'll be able to somehow.
As others have said, the issue is the firmware. All the current Windows machines essentially use the same BIOS standard from when IBM created their PC (yes, lotsa tweaks/additions since then).
Apple's Intel-based macs won't use that system. Thus, Windows won't know how to deal with the very, very low-level capabilites of the machine.
That being said, it would not suprise me if some hacker put together a translation layer of some sort that made it so you could boot windows on an Apple-Intel.
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Sku1ly
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:27:00 -
[24]
/me licks iBook.
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Mirirar
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:31:00 -
[25]
It's not so much that Apple used to have PowerPC chips instead of Intel based systems -- it's that most games use DirectX instead of OpenGL. Because of that I wouldn't expect to see the Mac game situation change at all.
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Mintaric
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:35:00 -
[26]
The difference between an Intel Mac and a PC is the EFI on the motherboard. It's a bios replacement. Windows Vista will support it.
Aside from that they are PC's.
In fact the Intel 945 chipset already has EFI on it and Windows XP runs fine on it. So it may have a bios compatibility layer on it of some sort. Or a bios and EFI. Just waiting to see someone get thier hands on an imac and install windows.
But as pointed out, the big difference in porting EVE to OSX is DirectX. They would have to build a new EVE client for OpenGL. I would love to see it happen though. OSX is an amazing operating system.
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Rimme Ettakar
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:45:00 -
[27]
Devs are too busy getting EVE for Mobiles running right now ...
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Gothikia
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:58:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Gothikia on 16/01/2006 04:58:56
Originally by: Darius Shakor
Not only that, but as I understand it (and correct me if I am wrong all you bofs out there) the server side programing would have to be altered to be compatable for this also. In a sharded system like WOW then that is possible by having a Mac only server but running both side by side on a server like TQ would be difficult I imagine, if at all possible without causing major problems for all involved.
Completley wrong! Weather your using different clients or not, they send the same information to the server BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN CODED TO!
You dont see "Windows Based Firefox Only" sites or "Linux Based Firefox Only" sites becuase the protocol of communication is the same!
Originally by: Oventoasted
Macs are the spawn of the Devil!
Tell that to the lovely EVE graphics you look at all day :) They were created in Maya for Mac and Photoshop/Illustrator mac version. :)
Clearly you have no idea how networking and computing technology works hehe
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Kasibee'an
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Posted - 2006.01.16 06:37:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Kasibee''an on 16/01/2006 06:41:04
I read into this a bit and apparently there are existing Linux bootloaders, Grub and Lilo, that operate on EFI and allow dual booting into Windows. As such, it's estimated that it may be mere days after the first intel-macs are released that someone will get XP working. That's presuming as someone has stated that there is already no BIOS emulation in the intel-macs EFI, although perhaps not likely.
On top of that Microsoft are already at work on the new Virtual PC which is said may run at near, if not full speed within OS X. The question of course is will they integrate support for hardware video acceleration.
Then of course Windows Vista will support EFI natively out of the box (and, ironically, I've heard Power PC chips).
The days of Eve-less macs are numbered.
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Recluse Viramor
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Posted - 2006.01.16 06:42:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Recluse Viramor on 16/01/2006 06:42:41
Even though the new macs don't use bios, but use EFI (extensible firmware interface), there are reports that it can boot Windows XP afterall. So it might be possible to dual boot still.
Linkage
If possible this would be very nice, since I've already pre-ordered one of the new macbook pros 
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.01.16 06:51:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Bubba Love
Quote:
4 is 4 whether it's sent from a mac or from a pc.
Actually no!
A G5 Mac is big endian and when storing 4 as a 32-bit value in memory would be 00 00 00 04. A PC is little endian and would store the same number as 04 00 00 00. So when writing network code one should always 'twiddle' to network byte order or big endian.
Of course with Intel Mac's the problems of byte ordering goes away.
Actually Ukucia hit the nail on the head - it's mostly a matter of libraries. A dual boot Apple Mac/Windows computer would be my ideal machine.
Listen to this man... G4 is bi-endian... G5 is not.
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Dust Angel
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Posted - 2006.01.16 07:02:00 -
[32]
Buying a Mac is akin to buying "my first computer". its not a real computer.
Stressed out with empire politics?
Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind. |
Recscue
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Posted - 2006.01.16 08:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dust Angel
Buying a Mac is akin to buying "my first computer". its not a real computer.
Ignorance is bliss...
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2006.01.16 15:35:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Bubba Love
Quote:
4 is 4 whether it's sent from a mac or from a pc.
Actually no!
A G5 Mac is big endian and when storing 4 as a 32-bit value in memory would be 00 00 00 04. A PC is little endian and would store the same number as 04 00 00 00. So when writing network code one should always 'twiddle' to network byte order or big endian.
Of course with Intel Mac's the problems of byte ordering goes away.
When dealing with computers you always have to use a certain degree of simplification, explaining the differences in cpu registers isn't really necessary in this case imo
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Babs Johnson
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Posted - 2006.01.16 16:16:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Dust Angel
Buying a Mac is akin to buying "my first computer". its not a real computer.
Let's see
I do all my word processing on my Macs.
I keep my business accounting on my Macs.
I run my business database on my Macs.
I do all my web browsing on my Macs.
I design web sites for non-profit organizations I support on my Macs.
The core of my home entertainment system is a Mac.
I do a considerable amount of image editing in Photoshop on my Macs.
I send and receive e-mail on my Mac.
I play EVE on my Macs. No, wait, can't do that.
Seems those "not real" computers for neophytes do everything I need them to do and have for many years. Except run EVE.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2006.01.16 16:18:00 -
[36]
Blizzard had WoW working for the G4 and G5, so for them most of the work was done by checking the "universal" compile option in XCode. Beyond that, their work was probably quite minimal.
That being said, I'd love to see a universal binary version of EVE. :) Would give me a reason to buy a new iMac.
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Kunming
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Posted - 2006.01.16 16:27:00 -
[37]
MAC is like a Mercedes, its elegant, expensive, has leather and chrom all over but compared to a Toyota 4x4 pickup truck its utility value is pretty low.
If u can afford a MAC you can definetly also afford a PC if u need it
Website
Killboard |
Derran
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Posted - 2006.01.16 18:30:00 -
[38]
I'd definitely give up my Windows laptop to play Eve on my iMac which I like better. Especially now that the new intel based ones are out and cheaper than they used to be.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2006.01.16 18:49:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Derran
I'd definitely give up my Windows laptop to play Eve on my iMac which I like better. Especially now that the new intel based ones are out and cheaper than they used to be.
You mean the Intel-based Macs they never had before? Or the laptops that have not had their price lowered at all?
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super4lt
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Posted - 2006.01.16 18:52:00 -
[40]
Mac users don't deserve EVE.
Super4lt is here to let yall know what time it is
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Fooball
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:05:00 -
[41]
No matter wether there's Eve client around or not.. I'm going to buy a Macintosh around next summer and throw away the inferior other computers. I don't know what happens to Eve playing, perhaps I'll try with some emulator or something.
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Derran
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:06:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Derran on 16/01/2006 19:06:56
Originally by: Winterblink
You mean the Intel-based Macs they never had before? Or the laptops that have not had their price lowered at all?
That is not what I mean. I bought one of the original G5 iMacs. My G5 PowerPC iMac cost me $3200 when I bought it which was about 2 weeks after it came out. 6 months later they improved the design, included features that used to cost extra, and it cost $2100. A couple months after that they included a few more things and it was $2000. Now it is a bit cheaper with the new intel processors. And my laptop (XPS Gen2 - about 5 months old) cost me about the same as my original iMac did. So technically it is cheaper than most decent laptops are.
It is just that I prefer using the iMac more, especially speaking from someone who works on a corporate helpdesk doing windows tech support. It doesn't ask me if I am sure I want to do something fifty million times before will do what I told it to do. It doesn't have a stupid registry like windows. I can rebuild the machine faster than I can on my laptop. It just feels more efficient than my laptop does. And it also ran WoW better than my older, higher spec tower I used to have did.
If Eve could run on a Mac, my laptop would likely be shelved for awhile.
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DukDodgerz
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:56:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ermenegildo Zenya
CCP are u looking into this matter? New iMac with introduction of Intel processors is closer to
PCs than ever, do u consider creating special version of eve-client for that superb machine?
Blizzard with WoW has lalready achieved this challenge - Will u be the next?
the hardware is NOT the issue, it is the OS.
CCP has said it a few million times...NO!!!
....now stop wasting forum space with silly "I want all the windows toys ported to linux " threads....
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CT BadIronTree
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Posted - 2006.01.16 20:19:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Ukucia
Edited by: Ukucia on 16/01/2006 01:19:55
A different processor really isn't that much of a porting issue. You just use a different compiler. (assuming same size pointers and other low-level details that are the same between x86 and the Mac version of the PPC)
The issue is the libraries that the software uses. The devs would have to re-write the graphics system to use OpenGL instead of DirectX, no matter what the processor is. Presumably there are also windows-specific constructs in their code, like Win32-style mutexes, that would have to be re-written.
This is also why there's no Eve for Linux-x86 (at least, no native version).
yep no Direct X no Party :/
============================================
Colossus Technologies
The first and oldest corp in eve!
BadIronTree Head of Production
CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003:
Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic mode.
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playing (or beta testing)since Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:06 (beta 5)
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