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Mystic Dhar	Posted - 2006.01.17 18:52:00 - [1] I would like to have an option, like insurance, that allows the purchase of a electronic virus that would trigger a player attacking ships self-destruct mechanism if an attack is not broken off in 5 seconds for those of us who find much about Eve fun to play but not the "un-invited" PvP. (Which usually occurs against inferior ships or those not configured for PvP. It seems pirates don't really want head-to-head challenge against an equal). This could be countered by a purchasable anti-virus but it would be much more expensive than the virus and ultimately there would be an uncounterable virus available. The purchase could be limited to non-combatant ships and/or Battlecruisers and smaller ships. The effect would be to force gate campers and pirate groups to choose possible destruction of all the ships in the gang or buy anti-virus for each ship and hope they don't run into the unstoppable virus. This would not eleminate camping and PvP but would give a greater element of risk to pirates camping gates and engaging players at will. The virus would have no effect on NPC ships and would be nullified if you initiated the attack. This is a purely defensive option not usable as an offensive weapon. The attacking player would receive notice of viral activation and if the attack stopped within the time limit nothing would happen. If the attacked ship was destroyed before the time was up the virus would trigger and destroy the attacking ship if not countered by the anti-virus program. Sorry for the long winded post but I wanted to get the full idea out for discussion.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.01.17 19:01:00 - [2] Why the virus ? Just ask for a consentualityu button for industrials and any other non-pvp fitted ship, I mean, that's what it comes down to isn't it ? Do we really need to go into this agian ? _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Galifardeua	Posted - 2006.01.17 21:57:00 - [3] This virus already exists, but needs a certain enviroment to function properly. The virus is named CONCORD, and the environment must be 0.5 or greater. Is it good enough for you? It is for me (and I don't PvP, I carebear a lot).
Rells	Posted - 2006.01.17 22:52:00 - [4] OMG he isnt joking. Scary ◄ Devs, it's time to finally nerf local: Replacing Local with a practical alternative.
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2006.01.18 08:02:00 - [5] Edited by: Macro Slasher on 18/01/2006 08:05:33 Go back to play in your sandbox, carebear If that one ever gets through I want a virus for killing unwanted carebears from my low security space. They don't belong there. Period. Seriously.. Sheesh. If you don't want pvp, stay in high security. There are some couple thousand sandbox solarsystems for you. Yes. They are for you.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.01.18 09:37:00 - [6] The idiocy isnt needed guys. Lay off of him. It it better if he understands that this is simply not an option (according to CCP), then that you all flame him into a defensive posture at which point he will feel that he needs to keep posting more ideas like this. The simple fact is that pvp, via combat or otherwise, is at the core of what this game was designed to be. That means it's a priority for CCP to keep these avenues of player interaction and player versus player competition open, and develop them further. Eve is not about pve, it's about pvp in the broadest sense. It does not have to be combat, but the idea is that all ways are open to you and you must therefore be open to interaction in all of those same ways. So, as long as you cna make a profit selling something to me, I will be able to shoot you in low sec. Take that into the extreme with examples ingame and you will see that CCP has never raised barriers to doing that in gameplay in any way. This whole design decicision supposed that players accept that, or even play the game because of it. Seeing that many do exactly that, CCP, aside from not wanting to do it, can't afford to make pvp combat consensual. _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.01.18 10:16:00 - [7] It's also worth bearing in mind that it's pretty much impossible to do anything which doesn't negatively affect someone somewhere.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.01.18 10:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Joerd Toastius It's also worth bearing in mind that it's pretty much impossible to do anything which doesn't negatively affect someone somewhere. Thats exactly the point. Its a competition, you cannot just expect to be safe from the parts of it you dont like as much while fully competing using the other parts of the game. _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Britannica	Posted - 2006.01.18 14:58:00 - [9] I'd rather fit a couple or WCS to any indy I fly in low sec (or a cloak) and run the risk of loosing it eve isnt fun with god mode enabled
Drizit	Posted - 2006.01.19 00:19:00 - [10] OK, we are not talking about "god mode" here. What is at stake is the low sec strongholds currently occupied by skilled and unbeatable players who have been playing for a very long time. Also the ability for these low sec murderers to completely cut off entire regions by killing anyone that ventures through their territory on the way to those regions. Look at Eve from a real life point of view and imagine we are actually living in that world. If piracy in low sec was that common, people would design very heavily armed and armoured transports to carry goods into or through those regions. Cap limits and recharge rates on them would enable permanent cloaking and engines would be gigantic to allow faster movement. All this would be incorporated into an indy to create a trade blockade runner. Alas, we are at the mercy of the devs who have decided on balance for gameplay instead of a perspective of reality. Indy's are little more than tin cans with almost no armour or shield and the CPU and power can only support a pop gun that isn't much use below 0.8 against NPC rats. It can't support a cruiser class MWD, nor can it support a decent cruiser class AB so you're stuck with pratically no speed as well. They are too easy a target even for a noob in a rookie ship, it's little wonder pirates in low sec view them as lambs to the slaughter. Even with a couple of support wingmen, the pirates just take out the tin can cos it goes boom in about half a second and then deal with the support afterwards. If the devs upped the cap, CPU, power, armour and shield rating of these tin cans it would be something. With teh slots that are currently available, traders could mount mods that would give them a chance of survival. At least they could last long enough for the support to have something to fight over or time for the lone pilot to get away if they have no support. Don't harp on about joining a corp, I've heard that line far too often. Many corps that noob traders can join are nowhere near powerful enough to take on most of the low sec corps in a pitched battle. It's simply because of excessive PVP that anything below 0.5 is a no go area for many people and as a result, Empire is overpopulated and laggy. Much of Empire is cut off from their current location due to having to go through sec < 0.5 to get to it. Try it sometime, go into high sec and then turn on the options to prefer safer routes and avoid pod kill areas in the autopilot and then select some destinations that are 0.5 or above and see how many times "unreachable" comes up. -- My idea of an OS is one that Operates the System, not a complete package of every piece of software ever written. Computers create "The Paperless Office". But some stupid fool invented a printer!
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.01.19 01:23:00 - [11] Originally by: Drizit Look at Eve from a real life point of view and imagine we are actually living in that world. If piracy in low sec was that common, people would design very heavily armed and armoured transports to carry goods into or through those regions. Cap limits and recharge rates on them would enable permanent cloaking and engines would be gigantic to allow faster movement. All this would be incorporated into an indy to create a trade blockade runner. You mean like the "Blockade Runner" T2 Industrials that every race has access to?
Drizit	Posted - 2006.01.19 02:00:00 - [12] Edited by: Drizit on 19/01/2006 02:02:02 I mean a 'trade' blockade runner. Something with a sizeable cargo hold for traders, not something with a lot of guns and hardly any cargo space. T2 indy's are available but are only larger versions of the existing tin cans they are based on. -- My idea of an OS is one that Operates the System, not a complete package of every piece of software ever written. Computers create "The Paperless Office". But some stupid fool invented a printer!
Silentblue1987	Posted - 2006.01.19 08:07:00 - [13] sorry, but having a system that repels pirates just isnt feasable in eve. It would take away the rights of the pirate, the right to do what they want. Eve was made to give the players freedom to do what they want. If you don't want to get blown up then stay in higher security than .5, as soon as you go lower than that, you're on your own, and CONCORD warns you that proceeding is a risk.
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2006.01.19 08:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Drizit OK, we are not talking about "god mode" here. What is at stake is the low sec strongholds currently occupied by skilled and unbeatable players who have been playing for a very long time. Also the ability for these low sec murderers to completely cut off entire regions by killing anyone that ventures through their territory on the way to those regions. The EVE Online low security space is all about struggling to own and control that space. That's the whole idea. And they are not unbeatable, all you need is to apply tactics and get some teamwork going on. Originally by: Drizit Look at Eve from a real life point of view and imagine we are actually living in that world. If piracy in low sec was that common, people would design very heavily armed and armoured transports to carry goods into or through those regions. Cap limits and recharge rates on them would enable permanent cloaking and engines would be gigantic to allow faster movement. All this would be incorporated into an indy to create a trade blockade runner. The piracy isn't actually very common. It's dead easy to use the map to find out where the campers are and go around those spots. Mostly you CAN find ways around, though they increase the distance by many many jumps. Originally by: Drizit Alas, we are at the mercy of the devs who have decided on balance for gameplay instead of a perspective of reality. In the history of warfare and weaponry the weapon has so far always without any exception sooner or later beaten the armor. It's pretty much an undisputable fact, in case you want to go for realism. Originally by: Drizit Indy's are little more than tin cans with almost no armour or shield and the CPU and power can only support a pop gun that isn't much use below 0.8 against NPC rats. It can't support a cruiser class MWD, nor can it support a decent cruiser class AB so you're stuck with pratically no speed as well. They are too easy a target even for a noob in a rookie ship, it's little wonder pirates in low sec view them as lambs to the slaughter. Even with a couple of support wingmen, the pirates just take out the tin can cos it goes boom in about half a second and then deal with the support afterwards. Use forward scouts, intelligence. Make safe spots and bookmarks in advance. If you don't you're a bad player tbh if you go down there with valuables. Originally by: Drizit If the devs upped the cap, CPU, power, armour and shield rating of these tin cans it would be something. With teh slots that are currently available, traders could mount mods that would give them a chance of survival. At least they could last long enough for the support to have something to fight over or time for the lone pilot to get away if they have no support. ... It still isn't enough. A gank fleet can easy put some 10 points of warp scramble strength on you. A dreadnaught does some 8000hp hit with one shot. Multiple battleships just rip through even an other battleship if they use tactics. Originally by: Drizit Don't harp on about joining a corp, I've heard that line far too often. Many corps that noob traders can join are nowhere near powerful enough to take on most of the low sec corps in a pitched battle. Some can beat some pirate campers.. But how about using tactics and going around? You don't have to try to hit down the hammer with your FOREHEAD damnit. Originally by: Drizit It's simply because of excessive PVP that anything below 0.5 is a no go area for many people and as a result, Empire is overpopulated and laggy. Much of Empire is cut off from their current location due to having to go through sec < 0.5 to get to it. Try it sometime, go into high sec and then turn on the options to prefer safer routes and avoid pod kill areas in the autopilot and then select some destinations that are 0.5 or above and see how many times "unreachable" comes up. They come at Jita already as some of us pod sometimes the isk farmers
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2006.01.19 08:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Drizit It's simply because of excessive PVP that anything below 0.5 is a no go area for many people and as a result, Empire is overpopulated and laggy. Much of Empire is cut off from their current location due to having to go through sec < 0.5 to get to it. Try it sometime, go into high sec and then turn on the options to prefer safer routes and avoid pod kill areas in the autopilot and then select some destinations that are 0.5 or above and see how many times "unreachable" comes up. An other thing. I've done those "test" runs with expendable ships.. Mostly nothing has happened. But when you really take a look around and snoop around you notice that most of the "pirates" have their favorite systems. And systems they very rarely are in. Just requires some intelligence there. Their amount towards the real low sec space also decreases. Many 0.0 players slaughter many wannabe wanderers and pirates. There is less and less people as you advance and you can start also hiding easier in case someone nasty comes into the system. Or your scout tells you there is one. I'm not necessarily talking about teamwork. You can do that scouting yourself too as the pirates are often very slow (up the head, lol) and do the same spots for days and so on. Being smart actually does keep you alive down there. It's no joke.
Dhejay Centrix	Posted - 2006.01.19 08:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Drizit ...Look at Eve from a real life point of view and imagine we are actually living in that world. If piracy in low sec was that common, people would design very heavily armed and armoured transports to carry goods into or through those regions. Cap limits and recharge rates on them would enable permanent cloaking and engines would be gigantic to allow faster movement. All this would be incorporated into an indy to create a trade blockade runner.... There are heavily armoured transports... They are called transport ships. These aren't simply a larger version but have powerful tanking abilities. As for protection, get a corp mate or two to escort you and scout for you. This game is about team play and player versus player competition be it through trading, manufacturing or indeed combat.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.01.19 09:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Drizit Edited by: Drizit on 19/01/2006 02:11:21 I mean a 'trade' blockade runner. Something with a sizeable cargo hold for traders, not something with a lot of guns and hardly any cargo space. T2 indy's are available but are only larger versions of the existing tin cans they are based on. With either more speed, better tanking ability and built-in stabs or slightly less speed and the ability to tank battleships depending on your preferred role. Both lose around 500 base cargo I believe (can't load item DB right now). Where's the problem?
Elfaen Ethenwe	Posted - 2006.01.19 16:59:00 - [18] dude, the point of eve is PvP. There is nno PvP flag, this isnt WoW Also, want to go into dangerous areas.... Get a corp that can protect you. Get mining rights. However, most low sec systems are safe.
NattyDreadlock	Posted - 2006.01.20 00:11:00 - [19] Its kind of a neat idea. I saw something like that on Cowboy Beebop and of course Star Trek NG. I'd like the option for a virus delivered through a carrier comm link. It would require Electronics V, ECM V, Hacking and Systems Disruption. There would be specific Systems Disruption skills for each race since you'd need to have viruses made for each operating system. The lower skill levels would allow for the random shut down of 1-2 modules and/or systems. As skill level increases you began to have the ability to shut specific module types(weapons, sensory, jamming(sensor and propulsion, etc) and at the highest skill level you'd be able to shut down multiple systems and/or slot types(hi, mid and low) including the occasional complete systems shut-down. I personally think a self-destruct is a bit much. The systems impact of the virus would be temporary, only about 10-15sec(enough time for ship's systems to detect, isolate and eliminate the virus)...just enough to allow for escape. The module cycle time should be significant, so that it doesnt become a combat spam tactic. Also the same system's attack wouldnt be effective on the same ship for some time...so a successful attack on sensors wouldnt work again for a few hours (atleast), but an attack that ship's web module or a weapons module may. Successful delivery of the virus isnt gauranteed. Virus impacts on shields shouldnt force shileds to drop, but they will stop their regenration, the same for armor. Virus impact on navigation should reduce output, possibly shutting them down altogether leaving you dead in the water temporarily. Even causing erratic directional control for a spell. The impact on general sensory systems would cause lose of locks, erratic locks and erroneous targting info for weapons. Virus impact on modules would shut-them down, requiring they be brought back on line(rememeber you'll need 95 or 98% cap to do this). module specific viruses would require the vrus module initate a systems scan of the enemy ship in-order to choose the desired moduel to impact. Targeting slot types and generic systems like nav, shields, armor, sensor wouldnt require any special scan since all ships have them. Question is, should the virus be target specific, or an area module...meaning it will impact friendly ships of the same race within range. Meaning it will also cause CONCORD responses in high-sec/Empire if it effects by-standers. _____________________________ You hit "insert pirate" with a frozen turd right in the eye from your 150mm railgun for 0.0 damage.
Meris	Posted - 2006.01.20 07:39:00 - [20] Well, as a 100% died-in-the-wool carebear...I don't get this kind of posting. Don't want to die? Don't go into low sec. There's even a message that pops up warning you before you jump. Ultimately there seems to be this pervasive meme of: I want to do <foo> (foo = risky, hazardous), but want to eliminate (risky, hazardous) part. Upon being told "you can't", the meme responds with "But I want to!" Anyone can make billions of ISK without ever setting foot in low sec. What's the issue?
Mystic Dhar	Posted - 2006.01.20 08:33:00 - [21] I really do appreciate the feedback and have played games far too long to let flamers get to me. My premise was to introduce an element of risk not only for pirates vs. new players but for everyone. Pirate ships could also load the virus as protection or retribution against bounty hunters. In no way would this stop PvP as nothing would prevent you from continuing the attack. Perhaps you bought the anti-virus and figure you will not be affected. The question is do you feel lucky? As for the carebear answer why should I ignore the opportunity to explore just because "I can make Billions without leaving .5 space"? As mentioned above in a more realistic economy model the navy would monitor and interdict those systems that showed an unusually high kill ratio to keep the supplies flowing. This would also give the pirate orginizations a chance to acquire navy modules by killing the fleet ships. CCP has not elected to impliment this option either. Nor have I read on the pirate boards of pirate corps offering "protection" for mining corps in systems they control for a split of the ore, minerals, or isk. The emphasis is on destroying the other players hard work with the admonition of "don't take anything you can't afford to loose" into low sec space. I saw this as a way of leveling the playing field and opening low sec to more players (read more PvP) if they felt they had a chance. Thanks again for all the input.
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2006.01.20 10:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Mystic Dhar I really do appreciate the feedback and have played games far too long to let flamers get to me. My premise was to introduce an element of risk not only for pirates vs. new players but for everyone. If you exclude gate snipers they already got quite huge risks. They aren't mostly really good players or unbeatable. Often it's a loner with assault frigate. Just get a gang going on and go to slaughter him if he bothers you. Originally by: Mystic Dhar As mentioned above in a more realistic economy model the navy would monitor and interdict those systems that showed an unusually high kill ratio to keep the supplies flowing. This would also give the pirate orginizations a chance to acquire navy modules by killing the fleet ships. CCP has not elected to impliment this option either. The Empire is at war. Navy is interested about that. Not protecting some silly carebears. Originally by: Mystic Dhar Nor have I read on the pirate boards of pirate corps offering "protection" for mining corps in systems they control for a split of the ore, minerals, or isk though the mention of mining rights seems to suggest it at least exists somewhere. The emphasis is on destroying the other players hard work with the admonition of "don't take anything you can't afford to loose" into low sec space. That's what fuels this game. Fighting. All the rest is just extra and second priority. Mining is useful only in producing ships and parts to get blow up. Not the other way around. Pirates could do that, true... But frankly, newbies that need protection aren't quite good miners either. Similar thing goes in low security mining ops, join the proper corp in proper alliance and you can start munching deep at 0.0 the good ores. Originally by: Mystic Dhar I saw this as a way of leveling the playing field and opening low sec to more players (read more PvP) if they felt they had a chance. I do like the idea of perhaps not a true killswitch virus but a system scrambler requiring training. Thanks again for all the input. It is not supposed to be level. That's the whole point. Players with more time put into training and practicing and fine-tuning their things are supposed to be superior. This isn't Counter-Strike where anyone gets a new "life" after every 30 seconds with equal capabilities.
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.01.20 13:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Meris Well, as a 100% died-in-the-wool carebear...I don't get this kind of posting. Don't want to die? Don't go into low sec. There's even a message that pops up warning you before you jump. Ultimately there seems to be this pervasive meme of: I want to do <foo> (foo = risky, hazardous), but want to eliminate (risky, hazardous) part. Upon being told "you can't", the meme responds with "But I want to!" Anyone can make billions of ISK without ever setting foot in low sec. What's the issue? QFBTUT quoted for being the ultimate truth
eagleknight	Posted - 2006.01.21 12:07:00 - [24] I am regularly in .4 down to .1 systems and even venture into 0 space now and again the real trick is to be smart. I use a cloak on almost every venture into non concord patrolled space and have not lost a ship yet. the other thing I do is scout the system from the f10 key and see if any pods have been wacked. go into a system when traffic is light and make instas if your unwilling to do this you should probably stay out of zero space and also the comment is true that the deeper you go in the safer it is the object isn't to make 0 space safe but for you to figure out how to be safe in this area EagleKnight The Viscount Caldari Knights
Telemicus Thrace	Posted - 2006.01.23 07:39:00 - [25] I stumbled on this looking for another thread and I just had to throw my 2 isk in. I used to specialise in the moving of large volumes of freight through low sec. Transport ships (Prowler & Co) are great but even a Mammoth can be fitted to withstand a fairly hefty barrage long enough to get to warp. Scrammed? use jammers / wcs / ECM bursts for the crazy monkies. Of course a well setup camp with a team sitting on it is going to pull you apart and do nasty things to your pod. Well a cloak and your ships built in scanner should be enough to stop you blundering into that camp. With enough agility, skillful use of your cloak and luck you should also be able to slip past camps you find when you jump into a system. Of course the map should have alerted you to a camp ahead before you made the jump. I think any sort of virus thingy that allows you to insta kill an attacking ship is stupid and game breaking. If you don't want to run the gauntlet stay in high sec and go around. If you really need something delivered to low sec or brought out of low sec raise a courier mission for a decent amount of kreds and get a seasoned blockade runner to do it. As a freighter jock you win by getting your ship & cargo through and getting paid. It takes skill in low sec and that means it's fun as well as profitable. The first time I entered low sec I'd been in Eve a few days and I had a Hoarder loaded with player courier parcels. I jumped straight into a gate camp (which I knew was there but I thought I'd see how bad it was). Sure enough my Hoarder got engaged by a Scorpion. I got away, delivered my goods, got paid and took a 2 jump detour to get safely back home. I have to this day never lost a hauler, never paid a ransom and never failed to deliver my cargo and I get a great sense of satisfaction from that. I think this idea will harm piracy and low sec haulers (who make ISK doing the runs so many are scared to do) and I'm against it. I could write volumes on low sec freight running tactics and none of them involve alts or logging . But I won't becase this has me tempted to get back into my Indie and I don't want to give away all my moves. "I cannot hear what you say for the thunder of what you are." - Zulu proverb.
Yurameki Daishun	Posted - 2006.01.23 15:41:00 - [26] I think this is a horrible idea

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