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HighClown	Posted - 2006.01.18 12:35:00 - [1] Just thought I could get everyone's thoughts on this. http://news.com.com/Are+virtual+assets+taxable/2100-1043_3-6027212.html?tag=nefd.pulse
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.18 12:37:00 - [2] Been discussed here recently. And no, they shouldn't be - you don't own them. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.01.18 12:44:00 - [3] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 18/01/2006 12:44:12 Originally by: Avon And no, they shouldn't be - you don't own them. Agreed - until such time as virtual property becomes the property of the player and not the property of the company, then no; I'd say it would be highly illegal to try to tax them. Testy's Eve Blog
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.01.18 13:00:00 - [4] Virtual assets should not be taxable. However, money made from the sale of those assets will be taxable. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.01.18 13:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Rodj Blake Virtual assets should not be taxable. However, money made from the sale of those assets will be taxable. Correct, money made from services is taxable. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.01.18 13:22:00 - [6] Originally by: Avon Been discussed here recently. And no, they shouldn't be - you don't own them. No, that's not the reason. (And your statement is untested legally). They are untaxable because the Eve servers are privately owned and there is no interchange of a goverment-backed currency during play. (RMT income is taxed as any income, of course) Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Amaii Templ	Posted - 2006.01.18 14:05:00 - [7] And how does the IRS go about making this happen, anyway? We all know the IRS are money crazy; they're the only branch of the government allowed to ignore reasonable cause and warrents when they bust through your door with shotguns - but how the hell are they going to enforce this mandate on, say, CCP? CCP is Icelandic. American tax laws don't apply to them, as EvE is not an import. If they tried something akin to the "Great Firewall" to try and force EvE to either keep their records or bar American players from connecting to the servers, not only would they have a rather major breach of privacy class-action lawsuit on their hands, but everybody would just use a proxy anyway. In short, they ought to just let it be. [urll=http://photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/?action=view¤t=Hauler.jpg]My Sunday Indy[/url]
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.01.18 14:07:00 - [8] Edited by: Nyphur on 18/01/2006 14:07:19 Originally by: Amaii Templ And how does the IRS go about making this happen, anyway? We all know the IRS are money crazy; they're the only branch of the government allowed to ignore reasonable cause and warrents when they bust through your door with shotguns - but how the hell are they going to enforce this mandate on, say, CCP? CCP is Icelandic. American tax laws don't apply to them, as EvE is not an import. If they tried something akin to the "Great Firewall" to try and force EvE to either keep their records or bar American players from connecting to the servers, not only would they have a rather major breach of privacy class-action lawsuit on their hands, but everybody would just use a proxy anyway. In short, they ought to just let it be. This has nothing to do with CCP unless they officially sanction purchase of in-game items for real cash directly. This is about individuals gold farming being busted for tax evasion by not declaring it with their income. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.18 14:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Rodj Blake Virtual assets should not be taxable. However, money made from the sale of those assets will be taxable. Selling something you don't own is fraud. Filling tax returns is not normally a priority for a criminal. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.01.18 14:41:00 - [10] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Rodj Blake Virtual assets should not be taxable. However, money made from the sale of those assets will be taxable. Selling something you don't own is fraud. Filling tax returns is not normally a priority for a criminal. True, but tax evasion is how many high-profile criminals have eventually been caught. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:15:00 - [11] Originally by: Rodj Blake True, but tax evasion is how many high-profile criminals have eventually been caught. Mr Capone, for example? ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:28:00 - [12] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Rodj Blake True, but tax evasion is how many high-profile criminals have eventually been caught. Mr Capone, for example? Exactly who I was thinking of. Hollywood brothel owner Heidi Fleiss was another one, iirc. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori

Redundancy	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Maya Rkell They are untaxable because the Eve servers are privately owned and there is no interchange of a goverment-backed currency during play. As I remember it, the argument was about trade of items that can be assigned a value under IRS rules on bartering, which the recent focus on black and white market RMT opens up. There was a fairly good discussion about it on Terra Nova.

Nyphur	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:34:00 - [14] Edited by: Nyphur on 18/01/2006 15:34:29 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Rodj Blake Virtual assets should not be taxable. However, money made from the sale of those assets will be taxable. Selling something you don't own is fraud. Filling tax returns is not normally a priority for a criminal. Since when is providing a mining service a crime? They sell their services as isk-makers for a specific length of time. While that sounds stupid (the whole "you are paying me for the time I spent aquiring the isk" stuff), it works from a legal standpoint because you're not longer selling something you don't own. You're hiring yourself out as a miner to someone and paying them in advance. Obvuiously people who say "BUY 100MIL FOR $435345" aren't trying to do that but it's a legitimate claim that a lot of people use. The downfall of that system is that you have to declare money made from services you provide in your income. They aren't commiting fraud, they're commiting tax evasion by not declaring all their income. There's a huge difference, legally. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Eric Redaxe	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:40:00 - [15] Originally by: Redundancy Originally by: Maya Rkell They are untaxable because the Eve servers are privately owned and there is no interchange of a goverment-backed currency during play. As I remember it, the argument was about trade of items that can be assigned a value under IRS rules on bartering, which the recent focus on black and white market RMT opens up. There was a fairly good discussion about it on Terra Nova. Also an interesting piece on it here: http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2006/feature_dibbell_janfeb06.msp The only danger of ingame taxation as it were, is the fact that game items are sold for real money, thereby becoming earnings.
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 18/01/2006 15:34:29 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Rodj Blake Virtual assets should not be taxable. However, money made from the sale of those assets will be taxable. Selling something you don't own is fraud. Filling tax returns is not normally a priority for a criminal. Since when is providing a mining service a crime? They sell their services as isk-makers for a specific length of time. While that sounds stupid (the whole "you are paying me for the time I spent aquiring the isk" stuff), it works from a legal standpoint because you're not longer selling something you don't own. You're hiring yourself out as a miner to someone and paying them in advance. Obvuiously people who say "BUY 100MIL FOR $435345" aren't trying to do that but it's a legitimate claim that a lot of people use. The downfall of that system is that you have to declare money made from services you provide in your income. They aren't commiting fraud, they're commiting tax evasion by not declaring all their income. There's a huge difference, legally. All very well and good, but we are talking about taxing in game assets, not services. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Viruzzz2	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:46:00 - [17] as far as i know. you are not selling your "time spent" you are selling the minerals. it'd be something else if you offered someone to mine for so and so long for x ammount of money.
James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:46:00 - [18] This is against the EULA in EVE but: Regardlesss of what it is, and who you are, if you give me RL money for a service, be it mining a billion trit, building an outpost, or sitting watching a gate for a day, that is a taxable income. Selling 'in game items' you can't really do, because you don't own them, but you can pay someone for the time. Now, the servers, CCP whatever has nothing to do with that. That's your _local_ tax laws. If you 'buy my time' then legally I have to declare it, and pay taxes on it. Or face prosecution for tax evasion. Of course, if you're in a country where there are no taxes, then this is all a moot point. -- We are recruiting Carriers on sale
James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Avon All very well and good, but we are talking about taxing in game assets, not services. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the EULA state that 'all stuff belongs to CCP' or similar? Therefore there is nothing to be 'sold'. One doesn't buy 'software' or 'databases' but instead purchases a "right to use". The tax only becomes an issue at the point where you start making money off it, and as there is no 'property' transfer, then you clearly must be selling some kind of service. -- We are recruiting Carriers on sale
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:50:00 - [20] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Avon All very well and good, but we are talking about taxing in game assets, not services. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the EULA state that 'all stuff belongs to CCP' or similar? Therefore there is nothing to be 'sold'. One doesn't buy 'software' or 'databases' but instead purchases a "right to use". The tax only becomes an issue at the point where you start making money off it, and as there is no 'property' transfer, then you clearly must be selling some kind of service. AAAaarrggggggggg... I made that point already. Head, wall. "Hi" Wall, head. "Hi" ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.01.18 15:57:00 - [21] Originally by: Avon All very well and good, but we are talking about taxing in game assets, not services. We stopped talking abot taxing in-game transactions around the third post, I think. Keep up. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.01.18 16:03:00 - [22] Clearly what needs to be done is to get in touch with the tax office to find out. After all, we cannot in all conscience do anything else. I mean, we know what the mineral value of that Mothership BoB recieved was, and therefore we should investigate whether capital gains taxes are due. -- We are recruiting Carriers on sale
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.01.18 16:14:00 - [23] Originally by: James Lyrus Clearly what needs to be done is to get in touch with the tax office to find out. After all, we cannot in all conscience do anything else. I mean, we know what the mineral value of that Mothership BoB recieved was, and therefore we should investigate whether capital gains taxes are due. That's entirely pointless. They were given an in-game item. They didn't buy it. It's not standardly worth anything, no matter how many ISK sellers there are. Transactions involving cash are taxed, not ISK. At no point was cash involved in the transaction of gifting BoB a mothership. You don't just tax assets for existing, real or otherwise. Tax is applied to transactions. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.18 16:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 18/01/2006 16:19:33 Originally by: James Lyrus Clearly what needs to be done is to get in touch with the tax office to find out. After all, we cannot in all conscience do anything else. I mean, we know what the mineral value of that Mothership BoB recieved was, and therefore we should investigate whether capital gains taxes are due. That's entirely pointless. They were given an in-game item. They didn't buy it. It's not standardly worth anything, no matter how many ISK sellers there are. Transactions involving cash are taxed, not ISK. At no point was cash involved in the transaction of gifting BoB a mothership. You don't just tax assets for existing, real or otherwise. Tax is applied to transactions. EDIT: To clarify, transactions involving government-backed currency are taxed. Eve Isk is not backed by agovernment and is not a world currency. Virtual currencies cannot be taxed but if purchased with real cash, the cash involved in that transaction may be taxed by being included in your income tax assessment. You didn't read the article linked in the original post, did you? Come on, own up. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Matthew	Posted - 2006.01.18 16:40:00 - [25] Originally by: James Lyrus I mean, we know what the mineral value of that Mothership BoB recieved was, and therefore we should investigate whether capital gains taxes are due. If we're saying that the asset itself cannot be traded (as it remains owned by CCP at all times), only the service of the time taken to provide it can be traded. By the same argument, BoB have not gained any real assets by being gifted the mothership, they have only gained the service of being given access to it. Having the mothership gives BoB the ability to provide a service if they so choose. But taxes are based on the business you actually do, not the hypotetical business you might be able to do. After all, by owning a PC with Office apps installed, I could potentially provide all sorts of secretarial, financial, etc services. But I only pay tax based on what I actually provide. Not only that, but the value of the service, for taxation purposes, is based on how much I choose to charge for that service, not how much I could have potentially charged. Therefore, if CCP choose to charge ú0.00 for the service of giving BoB a mothership, then that is the value of the service provided. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Matthew	Posted - 2006.01.18 16:49:00 - [26] Of course, even if it is determined to be taxable, which governments gets to tax it, and which real-life person or entity is held liable for those taxes? After all, as far as I'm aware, the Band of Brothers alliance isn't a registered legal entity within any country. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
smashsmash	Posted - 2006.01.18 16:50:00 - [27] Even the richest person in Eve isn't seriously rich enough for a virtual currency to be worth the time for a large country government to waste their efforts on. It would be better just to put a sin tax on game subscriptions. ---- Would you like some cries with your whaaamburger?
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.01.18 16:55:00 - [28] Originally by: Avon You didn't read the article linked in the original post, did you? Come on, own up. In fairness, it wasn't so much linked as pasted as plain text :p. I just read it and it pretty much says what I just did. Currently, none of this stuff is taxable until sold. As a matter fo plain fact, you can't ever tax something that is traded in a game with someone else in the game. It's when real money gets involved that the government are entitled to a share of the product/service. In the case of selling it as a product, the buyer is liable for VAT to be added onto his product and the seller must declare the money he makes as income. When I buy a shield booster off the market, at no point in that transaction does a government-backed currency become involved. It's me playing a game. The shield booster might have a value in isk which can be argued to have an exchange rate with real cash but the reality of the situation is that this particular exchange didn't involve cash and can't be taxed. It's toy money. IF and when the isk made from selling me this shield booster is traded for cash, THAT is the point at which the transaction may be taxed. It's perfectly reasonable for isk-sellers to be charged VAT on the cash they charge and have to declare their earnings in their income. This has nothing to do with in-game play but with the bridge between in-game services, items and currency and real world cash. While not legitimate with CCP, there's no law against selling ISK and it legally is a taxable transaction. This has nothing to do with in-game to in-game transactions in the slightest and never will because that idea is absolutely ludicrous. The IRS do not have the right to interfere with the internal workings of a game and they never will because CCP are the ones that control appropriate workings in the game of Eve and control who can play. If what you're suggesting is that isk to isk transactions be taxed, they would be taxed in isk which is in 100% complete control of CCP. Even if that came into effect, they would be piling up ISK that they couldn't trade for real world cash without getting all the IRS guys banned from EVE. Therefore, it doesn't have any value. I'll admit, it's an interesting topic of debate but the sitation is closed as far as I am concerned. At present, tax can be applied to any transactions involving real cash, whether they involve virtual goods on the other end or not. Anything beyond that goes into the realm of prediction of future changes to law, which I am not qualified to comment on. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Severe McCald	Posted - 2006.01.18 16:56:00 - [29] Anything that can be sold, can be taxed. If in any real sense someone could "sell" a virtual asset for cash (which we cannot, because it is a breach of the EULA) then receipt of that asset could be taxed at its market value. A simple change in the EULA (maybe already done - timecards have a RL value!) could mean that the UK tax system does apply. The servers are UK based, so ..... it could be that Gordon Brown has a virtual ace in the hole. Severe I saw a squirrel today jumping from one tree to another, the branch it landed on snapped. So the squirrel was on this falling branch, clambering like mad, thinking it was doing something about it.'
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.01.18 17:03:00 - [30] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 18/01/2006 17:06:19 I have a dog (account). Paid money for that dog (account), and I pay money to keep it alive (subscription). I can use my dog to make puppies, which I could sell for money. Does this make the puppies taxable ? No, it only makes the puppies taxable when convert them into monetary units, i.e., when I sell them for cash. Therefore, puppies are not taxable in themselves under income tax laws or property value laws of any kind I know about. Now, bartering is a different thing. I can barter the puppies for kittens. Would that make these kittens taxable as well as make the puppies taxable for their new owner ? Under some circumstances, it would. Puppies do after all represent value as a commodity, and when I have the intention to create additional value by either selling or bartering these puppies I become taxable for their worth. I then stop being a dog owner with a nest, and become a producer of puppies. My dog turned from a pet into a production asset, meaning it has economically expressable value to me now. In this case, the bartering has economical impact. The goods or services being bartered can be construed to be goods ro services withdrawn from the 'normal' market that uses monetary units as a medium of trade, and that is taxed. Therefore, bartering goods or services that would otherwise be taxed since they'd be sold rather then bartered could be explained as tax evasion, and thus have been taxed under some/these circumstances. However, since virtual goods are not goods withdraw from the usual monetary-based economic trade system we know, they are not withdrawn from conventional taxation by their bartering. Bartering is the mean when it comes to virtual goods, they don't have any economic value as long as there was never an intent to make it so. Once you have produced virtual goods with the intention to create additional value expressable in monetary units (i.e., tradional RL-economic worth, i.e. cash), their bartering turns into taxable conduct again. But not before. The only way to circumvent that logic is by imposing income tax on virtual income, thus forcing economic value on all virtual goods. But that is something that cannot be translated into valid law as far as I can see. There is no supportive logic for assigning econimic value to a pasttime like this. _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Discorporation	Posted - 2006.01.18 17:06:00 - [31] You don't pay dog taxes, Rod? [Now with MIND BULLETS!]
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.01.18 17:07:00 - [32] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 18/01/2006 17:07:15 Originally by: Discorporation You don't pay dog taxes, Rod? I do, but thats not related to their economic value but due to their production of waste. i.e., they **** on the governments' lawn and my taxes pay for the fact that I can let em do that. _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Discorporation	Posted - 2006.01.18 17:09:00 - [33] Dunno where you let your dogs poo, but where I live, you can get fined for that [Now with MIND BULLETS!]
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.01.18 17:11:00 - [34] Originally by: Discorporation Dunno where you let your dogs poo, but where I live, you can get fined for that Uitlaatstroken :p _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Dafuzz	Posted - 2006.01.18 17:20:00 - [35] Originally by: Rod Blaine I have a dog Yes Rod, you do have a dog. Proof! TBH this is really Rod's Dog. Photo taken at Evol 2005 BBQ. I think we should tax Rod for it tbh. -- -If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullets..
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.01.18 17:24:00 - [36] Yup, that him. 60 kilos/120 pounds (for you non-euro guys) of black bear. I'm currently training him to fetch my loot. Oh, and I;m glad they dont tax me by weight _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Discorporation	Posted - 2006.01.18 17:25:00 - [37] Yes. Twice, coz it's huge! [Now with MIND BULLETS!]
Syrec	Posted - 2006.01.18 17:46:00 - [38] Virtual assets aren't taxable, but the income you make wheeling and dealing them can be. I expect that like many other issues slightly relating to MMORPGs, this will be thrown way out of hand on many message boards because people won't take the time to read and understand what's going on. The IRS is not going to charge you taxes for your light electron blasters and ships just because some stooge is selling them on Ebay for 10 bucks.
Larsonist	Posted - 2006.01.18 18:28:00 - [39] i wonder if we would get tax breaks
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.01.19 22:21:00 - [40] Edited by: Deja Thoris on 19/01/2006 22:23:48 Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Avon Been discussed here recently. And no, they shouldn't be - you don't own them. No, that's not the reason. (And your statement is untested legally). They are untaxable because the Eve servers are privately owned and there is no interchange of a goverment-backed currency during play. (RMT income is taxed as any income, of course) So whats your point? Barter transactions can be taxed. You just need to be able to link a value to the transaction. Not hard to do EDIT - Dammit a dev beat me to it
Teles666	Posted - 2006.01.19 22:54:00 - [41] Edited by: Teles666 on 19/01/2006 22:57:15 I can imagine the conversation... Hi there, I own a big space ship with lots of lasers an stuff, do I need to pay any tax on it? Yes sir of course, any pink elephants to declare as well? If I played quake, and a big rich freak wanted to get a top clan so payed me to play quake - what would be taxed? Frags? Time on server? No, the money made. Same diff.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.01.20 00:22:00 - [42] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Rodj Blake Virtual assets should not be taxable. However, money made from the sale of those assets will be taxable. Selling something you don't own is fraud. Filling tax returns is not normally a priority for a criminal. And saying that you do not own things in Eve is an untested statement, legally. I'm afraid that the IRS wouldn't consider "but it's against the EULA" anyway, it'd make your situation worse if it was upheld, not a defence. Redundancy, I did follow most of that debate, but I for one consider TN..er..somewhat behind the curve on these things (not that it's not useful...), we've had it out at Corpnews several times in recent years. Personally, I quoted the opinion of someone who really IS a UK lawyer and my friend (he also plays MMO's and is interested in the topic) :) Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.20 00:48:00 - [43] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 20/01/2006 00:48:46 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.20 01:05:00 - [44] Originally by: Rod Blaine Yup, that him. 60 kilos/120 pounds (for you non-euro guys) of black bear. I'm currently training him to fetch my loot. Good idea. It's probably eaiser than training to use a damn tractor beam. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Lord Obsidian	Posted - 2006.01.20 02:57:00 - [45] "It's a little bit like getting an autograph of a baseball player or movie star. You could sell the autograph, and folks do, but we don't tax folks who get the autographs and don't sell them." - Quote from the Article. This is how it will turn out, and its how it should be. If you play the game for the 'fun of it' and not as a 'job' you dont pay tax. Play the game as a 'job' and any money earnt from it is taxed.
Dao 2	Posted - 2006.01.20 03:13:00 - [46] tax game items give them game money ;p here is the 100k isk tax for selling my faction loot ;p
Fooball	Posted - 2006.01.20 10:33:00 - [47] Well, if the tax agency gets themselves an official EVE account, I can gladly right click on their name and "Give money..." just for the laughs
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.20 10:46:00 - [48] Originally by: Maya Rkell And saying that you do not own things in Eve is an untested statement, legally. I'm afraid that the IRS wouldn't consider "but it's against the EULA" anyway, it'd make your situation worse if it was upheld, not a defence. Actually, this is one part of the EULA that does have legal precedent. Maybe you should ask your lawyer friend to explain it to you? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Corp Scammer	Posted - 2006.01.20 10:49:00 - [49] hmmm well its not legal to sell eve items but lets consider other games where it is if u make a business out of it then depending where u live u might pay tax on it

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