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Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
321
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Posted - 2013.10.07 06:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
Julius Priscus wrote:Alex Logan wrote:1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle. a jump fuel bay yes... Alex Logan wrote:2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak. covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc. Alex Logan wrote:You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies. imo they should be like bs versions of the recons.
Fuel bay I can definately see. The covert cloak I'm not as sure about anymore.
Reason: The "need to keep up with the crew..." in system... Isn't rubicon changing how ships warp so smaller/faster warp/land faster? That means even current mixed covert gangs, that come in at range, are liable to have issues staying formed up.
If it's radical enough - the cloak can go but that fuel bay... That's a big issue. Dragging along a blockade runner for fueling. Ouch.
If people do insist on covert cloaks I'd say also remove the instant lock when it comes off. Make them work more like recon's than bombers - AND- remove that speed bonus. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
532
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Posted - 2013.10.07 07:08:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Julius Priscus wrote:Alex Logan wrote:1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle. a jump fuel bay yes... Alex Logan wrote:2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak. covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc. Alex Logan wrote:You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies. imo they should be like bs versions of the recons. Fuel bay I can definately see. The covert cloak I'm not as sure about anymore. Reason: The "need to keep up with the crew..." in system... Isn't rubicon changing how ships warp so smaller/faster warp/land faster? That means even current mixed covert gangs, that come in at range, are liable to have issues staying formed up. If it's radical enough - the cloak can go but that fuel bay... That's a big issue. Dragging along a blockade runner for fueling. Ouch. If people do insist on covert cloaks I'd say also remove the instant lock when it comes off. Make them work more like recon's than bombers - AND- remove that speed bonus.
Bombers don't have a lock delay either, even then you still have battleship scan res to deal with.
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Infinity Ziona
Hot Drop Buns
482
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Posted - 2013.10.07 08:14:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Julius Priscus wrote:Alex Logan wrote:1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle. a jump fuel bay yes... Alex Logan wrote:2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak. covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc. Alex Logan wrote:You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies. imo they should be like bs versions of the recons. Fuel bay I can definately see. The covert cloak I'm not as sure about anymore. Reason: The "need to keep up with the crew..." in system... Isn't rubicon changing how ships warp so smaller/faster warp/land faster? That means even current mixed covert gangs, that come in at range, are liable to have issues staying formed up. If it's radical enough - the cloak can go but that fuel bay... That's a big issue. Dragging along a blockade runner for fueling. Ouch. If people do insist on covert cloaks I'd say also remove the instant lock when it comes off. Make them work more like recon's than bombers - AND- remove that speed bonus. If they did get covert cloak I'd say it would be reasonable to add the usual 5 sec delay minimum since they wouldn't have the scan res penalty of a regular cloak anymore.
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1252
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Posted - 2013.10.07 10:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
Onictus wrote:... blops jump range is notoriously low. There are a few regional jump they can't make at all, Querious and Catch comes to mind, Cloud Ring and Fountain are one that is close, you can only get from B-BD to J5A- then you have to jump again.
.....not to mention that you don't usually drop your fuel truck, the idea being that it is alive to have enough gas to get you home, gating it with a black ops fleet isn't exactly fun.
This. If the reward (jump drive) was at the level of all drawbacks could make things a bit more interesting, but with such poor range it becomes quickly annoying on top of the mandatory fuel truck.
The case you just explained (B-D or 4EP) is one of those moments you hate yourself for having a blops. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Red Teufel
Mafia Redux Phobia.
228
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Posted - 2013.10.07 13:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Onictus wrote:... blops jump range is notoriously low. There are a few regional jump they can't make at all, Querious and Catch comes to mind, Cloud Ring and Fountain are one that is close, you can only get from B-BD to J5A- then you have to jump again.
.....not to mention that you don't usually drop your fuel truck, the idea being that it is alive to have enough gas to get you home, gating it with a black ops fleet isn't exactly fun. This. If the reward (jump drive) was at the level of all drawbacks could make things a bit more interesting, but with such poor range it becomes quickly annoying on top of the mandatory fuel truck. The case you just explained (B-D or 4EP) is one of those moments you hate yourself for having a blops.
seriously you're complaining after they gave you titan bridging ranges? Then you complain about needing a fuel truck? I personally do not want to see blopsing get so easy everyone does it. |
Batelle
RisingSuns
173
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Posted - 2013.10.08 19:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
If you have the means to have a blops fleet, adding a blockade runner is not that hard.
The ships are plenty useful without a covops cloak. Both as pure bridging and support ships, and as actual combat ships when needed. That they are weaker in a straight brawl than a combat battleship is irrelevant. Fighting is Magic |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
107
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Posted - 2013.10.09 02:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Making the blops more of a recon/support role I could get behind. And I am willing to admit I am being 'somewhat' convinced for the covop cloak. Under the provision that it still gets the lock time delay as stated above and loses the speed while cloaked.
Perhaps make them all more like the widow. Drop damage/weps for racial ecm type. Or maybe do that for amarr and then give a logi type bonus for the gal/min types. Adding even more of the desired use and diversity to the blOps support role.
However, it is my thinking that most of these threads don't really want a useful blops. They want that cloak bs that no one can catch or stop that can move with complete impunity to any system, then run down a battleship while they stay cloaked, uncloak and instant scram said target, and finally destroy them before anyone can react. To which, I and presumably others are opposed. The new SoE cruiser is going to completely change the blops gang meta as is. Add this solo cloaky easy mode killer and I worry at the ramifications.
Also as a small point for 'diversity' it was my understanding that the T1 teiracide is/was for expanding their roles but T2 ships are supposed to be focused and of limited role. |
Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
34
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Posted - 2013.10.09 23:09:00 -
[38] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:Making the blops more of a recon/support role I could get behind. And I am willing to admit I am being 'somewhat' convinced for the covop cloak. Under the provision that it still gets the lock time delay as stated above and loses the speed while cloaked.
Perhaps make them all more like the widow. Drop damage/weps for racial ecm type. Or maybe do that for amarr and then give a logi type bonus for the gal/min types. Adding even more of the desired use and diversity to the blOps support role.
However, it is my thinking that most of these threads don't really want a useful blops. They want that cloak bs that no one can catch or stop that can move with complete impunity to any system, then run down a battleship while they stay cloaked, uncloak and instant scram said target, and finally destroy them before anyone can react. To which, I and presumably others are opposed. The new SoE cruiser is going to completely change the blops gang meta as is. Add this solo cloaky easy mode killer and I worry at the ramifications.
Also as a small point for 'diversity' it was my understanding that the T1 teiracide is/was for expanding their roles but T2 ships are supposed to be focused and of limited role.
I'm guessing that you are not aware that Recon ships are not only specifically designed with Electronic warefare as their main offensive ability, they are also able to be bridged with a Black-Ops.
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Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
107
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Posted - 2013.10.09 23:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
This is somewhat my point. If the balance to the covop mobility is the reduced 'gank' AND people want a role for the blops beyond 'just' the jump portal it needs to be something other than a DPS bonus. So, given the widow already has ewar bonus then the precedent exists.
Otherwise the only thing missing from a 'fleet comp' around black ops is a logistics hull. Also I might point out that there is already a logistics gap between cruiser and carrier, but that is secondary.
However, the fact remains that if the people who start these posts were more honest they want a solo pwn mobile that can move with impunity. Stalk and catch any target and then put up 1200+ DPS. But saying it that way makes it too clearly op. |
Mnemosyne Gloob
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
127
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Posted - 2013.10.10 01:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:Otherwise the only thing missing from a 'fleet comp' around black ops is a logistics hull.
Which is why sometimes people fit RR on BOPS, to facilitate some more staying power. I dunno if a dedicated covert ops RR ship would be too strong.
Froggy Storm wrote:However, the fact remains that if the people who start these posts were more honest they want a solo pwn mobile that can move with impunity. Stalk and catch any target and then put up 1200+ DPS. But saying it that way makes it too clearly op.
Yeah they want a cloaky warping Battleship with Battleship dps. Completely ignoring the other benefits of Black Ops ships. Namely the covert jump drive and covert bridge. I think Black Ops are actually a very good example of the need to play together with other people in this game. You just don't gank someone solo in them (unless it is really a squishy thing). You need friends to do it, call it blobbing or whatever, but you also put some serious isk on the line.
Maybe the 'confusion' comes with the progression line. You have Covops, then Recons, which both warp cloaked. Next is Black Ops, which don't warp cloaked. I think many people are like 'hey wait i trained this line because i like cloaky and now in a Battleship i cannot do that, wtf'. While it seems on first glance that Black Ops would be a direct progession from aforementioned classes, they are not - if you only look at the cloaky ability. They do however play nicely with those other classes, as they facilitate the jumping ability for cloakies. Which, being covert has some nice advantages. People seem to copletely ignore this aspect.
I do not know if i would like covert ops warping black ops to be honest. They do what they do quite okay imo. Maybe a better jump range would be beneficient, as would a bigger fuel bay (lets face it if you want to do some jumps and on top of that bridge some people, you need a hauler along). But then again 'power projection' is a thing that can argue against this.
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Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
34
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Posted - 2013.10.10 01:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:This is somewhat my point. If the balance to the covop mobility is the reduced 'gank' AND people want a role for the blops beyond 'just' the jump portal it needs to be something other than a DPS bonus. So, given the widow already has ewar bonus then the precedent exists.
Otherwise the only thing missing from a 'fleet comp' around black ops is a logistics hull. Also I might point out that there is already a logistics gap between cruiser and carrier, but that is secondary.
However, the fact remains that if the people who start these posts were more honest they want a solo pwn mobile that can move with impunity. Stalk and catch any target and then put up 1200+ DPS. But saying it that way makes it too clearly op.
This is a good example of someone diving deep into a conversation about a subject they have no clue about. You talk of "Gank" and 1200+ DPS. Sure, Black ops have damage bonuses. What they do not have is a large amount of guns. The only way to get 1200 DPS out of a Black Ops is to fit it with Top End Officer guns and hardwires. |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
107
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Posted - 2013.10.10 02:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
A good example of someone who can't be bothered to read the whole thread. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
488
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Posted - 2013.10.10 03:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:
However, it is my thinking that most of these threads don't really want a useful blops. They want that cloak bs that no one can catch or stop that can move with complete impunity to any system, then run down a battleship while they stay cloaked, uncloak and instant scram said target, and finally destroy them before anyone can react. To which, I and presumably others are opposed. The new SoE cruiser is going to completely change the blops gang meta as is. Add this solo cloaky easy mode killer and I worry at the ramifications.
For killing battleships we can already do this better in a T3. You can do it in a 30 mill bomber if you're careful.
For me its more about survivability than gank. I like solo hunting. I hate cruisers and love battleships but solo battleships in null are problematic to say the least - 1 500k frig at a gate and you're toasted.
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Alex Logan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2013.10.16 23:35:00 -
[44] - Quote
I don't think BO should output more DPS than they're already capable of. In fact I'd even change bonuses in such a way that the pilot can choose only one of low-to-average tank OR low-to-mediocre DPS.
Seriously this ship shouldn't deal more than 400 dps nor tank more than about 40000 EHP because if you get in a situation where you're against anything that can kill that, you're doing something wrong, you're not fulfilling your role.
This is not a ship you fly primarily as a damage dealer or bait or squad tanker. It doesn't belong in a plex or mission either, see marauders or T1 if that's what you need. BO's role is so much different, it doesn't even belong in a gang with anything else than covops/recons.
It shouldn't be compared in any way with other tier 1/2/3 battleships. |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Origin. Black Legion.
284
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Posted - 2013.10.17 00:03:00 -
[45] - Quote
Only fixes needed:
*Sort out the weird and/or useless bonuses (agility on Sin and velocity on Panther may have their uses, but they're kind of awkward in general, redeemer cap use and RoF are sort of counterproductive, etc) *Lower mass while also lowering base velocity and increasing inertia, so that they consume less fuel when jumping but maintain a similar ongrid mobility *Make the Jump Portal Generation skill apply its bonuses to the Covert Jump Portal Generation *Slightly increase scan resolution to compensate for the cloak penalty
Done No sig. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
567
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Posted - 2013.10.17 00:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
Alex Logan wrote:I don't think BO should output more DPS than they're already capable of. In fact I'd even change bonuses in such a way that the pilot can choose only one of low-to-average tank OR low-to-mediocre DPS.
Seriously this ship shouldn't deal more than 400 dps nor tank more than about 40000 EHP because if you get in a situation where you're against anything that can kill that, you're doing something wrong, you're not fulfilling your role.
This is not a ship you fly primarily as a damage dealer or bait or squad tanker. It doesn't belong in a plex or mission either, see marauders or T1 if that's what you need. BO's role is so much different, it doesn't even belong in a gang with anything else than covops/recons.
It shouldn't be compared in any way with other tier 1/2/3 battleships.
This is the worst post in this entire thread. They wouldn't be good for anything but portaling....
....oh wait. |
Alex Logan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2013.10.18 23:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
This is the worst post in this entire thread. They wouldn't be good for anything but portaling....
....oh wait.
Wasn't that this ship class' main role? Stealth and JB? EW 2nd, dps/tank 3rd...
So the stealth part sucks due to the lack of covops cloak capability and the JB part due to the (still) limited fuel bay.
One thing I've learned is there's no jack of all trades ship in this game. Even if some people try all sorts of loadouts or throw billions @ officer mods... still each ship class has its role and several other ship classes it can engage and several it shouldn't. There's no ship you can kill "anything" with. There are accidents that cause, for instance, BS km by 2 frigs (ok sure, stupidity) but that don't mean frigs (or any other ship) are/could be/should be universal pwnmobiles with lazors and big perky ****.
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Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
224
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Posted - 2013.10.19 03:03:00 -
[48] - Quote
I love my redeemer, like LOVE!!! But sadly considering its cost, train time, and it being **** for anything other then jump in with a pack of its brothers and gank a target, MJD away, cloak and then repeat..
And before anyone goes, cost shouldnt be a balancing factor. I agree. however we are talking 1.2 billion isk worth of ship with a VERY VERY limited use. If it was cheaper I wouldn't feel bad about throwing it away in fights that I might lose, but it is in my opinion just on the expensive side for that.
680 so DPS with 90k EHP isn't exactly stellar either.
Now is the whole jumping and bridging thing good? HELL YES! It is, but not THAT good. And if you want to bring recons for anti tackle, etc then the fuel cost quickly skyrockets and with that the problem of hauling cap boosters AND fuel.
It is a novelty toy tbh, I love it dearly but.. for that kind of isk a vindicator or bhaal is just so much more effective for just a little bit more in general. Looking at my kill log with the redeemer it isn't all that impressive, sure I missed more then one target as I was the bridger and the portal got killed before my 10 seconds was up so I could jump. and in before: you dont have any kills in a redeemer.. no not on this char, try my alt. linda shadowborn.
Black ops don't need a big tweak, they are nearly there I think. Just a little love (if nothing else better fitting please, the redeemer is a ***** to fit. while I agree ships shouldnt have super generous fittings.. a little love wouldnt go amiss. I shouldnt have to go with all faction/deadspace just to fit what I need. but.. meh :) No matter I will always love it, it is my second favourite ship after my damnation.
edit: seriously with the word filter? wow |
Bibosikus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
156
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Posted - 2013.10.19 09:58:00 -
[49] - Quote
Black Ops boats have been around since Trinity (2007). They've been tweaked here & there, but until about three years ago remained largely the property of 'cool dudes' who logged on every now and then and did weird stuff.
Now, with so many more capsuleers edging the 100m sp mark or more and wanting Things To Train, BlOps is a lot more common as a skill under the belt. As such, the pressure to make BlOps actually, properly useful has increased manyfold.
I think the main issue is that they were introduced as Battleships. They didn't need to be, and probably shouldn't have ever been, battleships. That word itself raises expectations among most Eve capsuleers, because "battleships" *kill stuff* and can *tank whole gangs*.
When CCP brought BlOps into play they were doing exactly that. Playing. It was a fabulous idea - something that could bust through the wall of cyno jammers in null and get things interesting - but it was very poorly implemented.
I for one would suggest keeping them as BS but extending their range so that *all* nullsec systems are accessible. They should also be capable of deploying and bridging back a decent-sizd gang. Perhaps a gang capable of taking out cyno jammers in null..
I also think BlOps should be able to tank really, really well. Forget using these boats for dps. They should never have had it in the first place.
/tuppence complete The box said "Requires Windows-á2000 or better", so I installed Linux. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
570
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Posted - 2013.10.19 11:04:00 -
[50] - Quote
Alex Logan wrote:Onictus wrote:
This is the worst post in this entire thread. They wouldn't be good for anything but portaling....
....oh wait.
Wasn't that this ship class' main role? Stealth and JB? EW 2nd, dps/tank 3rd... So the stealth part sucks due to the lack of covops cloak capability and the JB part due to the (still) limited fuel bay. One thing I've learned is there's no jack of all trades ship in this game. Even if some people try all sorts of loadouts or throw billions @ officer mods... still each ship class has its role and several other ship classes it can engage and several it shouldn't. There's no ship you can kill "anything" with. There are accidents that cause, for instance, BS km by 2 frigs (ok sure, stupidity) but that don't mean frigs (or any other ship) are/could be/should be universal pwnmobiles with lazors and big perky ****.
You do understand that it takes a 3bil isk fit to get a deemer to 100k eHP with like guns right? and even then it barely does the damage of a pulse-poc |
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Alex Logan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2013.10.29 00:50:00 -
[51] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
You do understand that it takes a 3bil isk fit to get a deemer to 100k eHP with like guns right? and even then it barely does the damage of a pulse-poc
Nah, those rich carebears will prefer paladins or faction battleships instead.
My point above was, there's no way for a larger fuel bay and covops cloak to make black ops overpowered, like some of the guys above were saying it would become.
Just because it COULD get to 100K EHP doesn't mean anyone will fly it.
It won't become a pwnmobile. It will simply become better at what it's meant to be doing - right now it sucks at it. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
356
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Posted - 2013.10.30 01:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
Remove the cloaked speed bonus, give them cov ops so they can move with every other ship in the BO gang, and give them a useful 4th bonus. Either fuel consumption or dps, something useful. Warping cloaked will not make black ops overpowered, it will just make them easier to use. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
622
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Posted - 2013.10.30 10:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Alex Logan wrote:- they suck at dps, and if you try putting on a real pvp fit they become something like a noobfit T1 BS except the wtf price tag Here's an idea, how about you compare their DPS to the DPS of other ships that fit covops cloaks. It doesn't look so bad now does it?
You countign the new OP SOE cruiser on that? Because it outdps some of the blackops :P "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
108
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Posted - 2013.10.31 02:49:00 -
[54] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Xequecal wrote:Alex Logan wrote:- they suck at dps, and if you try putting on a real pvp fit they become something like a noobfit T1 BS except the wtf price tag Here's an idea, how about you compare their DPS to the DPS of other ships that fit covops cloaks. It doesn't look so bad now does it? You countign the new OP SOE cruiser on that? Because it outdps some of the blackops :P
Having seen the new cruiser it is going to need some careful tweeks before it comes into line. And if anything it makes the blops' role even more important for real power projection. Then again it will be nice when recons go back to being support ships.
While I've been (more or less) sold on a covop cloak being essential to a "roaming with gang" option, giving it bs+ DPS on top of all the rest is out of the question.
Though above, it was mentioned splitting them by roles might produce some interesting results if done right.
For example only; Make gang ewar based hulls with big fuel bays and covop cloak for drop in and move around blops teams. And then an attack variant with the limited mobility of the current cloak bonus but improved DPS.
You can then apply the one in drops and roams where the other then specialized for siege fleet like a cov-cyno mini dred. Heck, maybe give it the option to trade its jump drive for the bastion of the maurader for sustained tank vs pos guns/mods.
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