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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2786

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Posted - 2013.10.02 14:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
Heyo - it's ship balance time again!
Sounds like you guys are getting a bunch of this on sisi really soon so we might as well get feedback rolling. We are going to hit you with several threads at once so it may take us a few days to start processing and get back to you. Don't worry though I read it all and you are each special to me so let us know what you think!
GOALS
Make them more useful
Make them sensible in relation to the new t1 disruption frigs
Avoid overlap with other classes (interceptors and disruption frigs?)
DESIGN HIGHLIGHTS
Increased the range bonus from Electronic Attack Ship skill on all four ships significantly
Slightly increased base hp
Slightly increased maxvelocity
Increased lock range significantly
Increased cap recharge from 1.33/sec to around 2/sec (this is a big deal)
Increasing the range for points/webs/ecm/neuts on these ships should hopefully make them useful enough to show up in lighter/faster fleets that need recon type support but want either faster or cheaper ships doing it. The base stat buffs are to bring them close to where the disruptions frigs are.
SPECIFICS
SENTINEL
Amarr Frigate Bonuses: 20% bonus to energy vampire and energy neutralizer transfer amount per level 7.5% bonus to effectiveness of tracking disruptors per level
Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses: 80% bonus to energy vampire and energy neutralizer range per level (+40% per level) 5% reduction in capacitor recharge time per level
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 40 PWG, 195 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(+25) / 425(+50) / 375(+25) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 415 / 190s (-121s) / 2.18 (+.85) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+10) / 4.25 / 1112000 / 6.55 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20 / 60 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 66km(+30km) / 575 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Radar Signature radius: 48(-5)
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KITSUNE
Caldari Frigate Bonuses: 20% bonus to ECM target jammer strength per level 10% reduction in ECM target jammers' capacitor need per level
Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses: 25% bonus to ECM target jammer optimal range per level (+12.5% per level) 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level
Slot layout: 3H, 5M, 2L; 1 turrets, 3 launchers Fittings: 26 PWG, 270 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 450(+50) / 250 / 275(+25) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 415 / 195s (-116s) / 2.12 (+.79) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 315 / 3.86 / 1117000 / 5.98s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 71km(+29km) / 520 / 7 Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric Signature radius: 55(-3)
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KERES
Gallente Frigate Bonuses: 7.5% bonus to remote sensor dampener effectiveness per level 10% reduction in remote sensor dampener capacitor need per level
Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range per level (+10% per level) 10% reduction in warp disruptor capacitor need per level
Slot layout: 2H, 5M, 3L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers Fittings: 33 PWG, 205 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 325 / 400(+50) / 425(+75) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 375 / 187s (-93s) / 2.00 (+.66) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 355(+10) / 4.1 / 1095000 / 6.22s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 10 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 68km(+29km) / 550 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric(-.5) Signature radius: 50(-5)
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HYENA
Minmatar Frigate Bonuses: 10% bonus to optimal range of target painters per level (was MWD capacitor use) 10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses: 50% bonus to stasis webifier range per level (+30% per level) 3% reduction in signature radius per level
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 2 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 36 PWG, 145 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 375(+50) / 375(+25) / 325(+25) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 355 / 175s (-91s) / 2.02 (+.69) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 385(+25) / 3.93 / 1083000 / 5.9s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 66km(+31km) / 600 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Ladar Signature radius: 45(-6) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2961

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Posted - 2013.10.08 11:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hey guys
Thanks for the feedback.
So far I'm noticing two major threads wtf are you thinking these are insanely strong (especially in FW frig 1v1 type environments)
wtf why didn't you reduce the sig or increase the hp/speed to make them more survivable
This seems pretty okay I think. I agree that some of them will make really OP 1v1 ships, but they will probably suffer from the same problems that ships like the dragoon already do - no one will want to fight you. When you move them out of the 1v1 environment and into small groups I think they seem like they will be alright because as the second group says, their survivability still isn't amazing.
I wouldn't feel comfortable adding drones to the Keres, and it's tempting to remove some from the Sentinel to de-emphasize their role as duelers and push them more towards support. Probably won't do that, but I would prefer that option to adding more dps to the others.
I'll keep watching the discussion and will also pay really close attention to their use after release and adjust as needed.
Hopefully they're just really fun |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2963

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Posted - 2013.10.08 14:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'm saying that the power level on these was devastatingly bad before, to the point that they were almost never used. It's very normal for e-war focused ships in EVE to be extremely dominant in certain situations while being abysmal in others. I think these look like they are threading the line fairly well.
My point about them being too strong to engage 1v1 is that at this scale you have a lot of control over your engagements and that leaves some room for them to be powerful considering that as you scale up they quickly get weaker.
If it turns out that people aren't able to react for some reason and low sec is just swarms of solo Keres pilots we would definitely make some changes, but I don't think that will be the case. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2965

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Posted - 2013.10.08 15:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
It seems to me like those of you that are most concerned are players who really dislike ewar as a system, and therefor dislike these ships. I'm not sure anything but keeping these nerfed into the ground is going to sound good to you, and I understand that as a player who struggled with ewar a lot.
I don't feel convinced that they will be so good they will blot out the sun and no one will be able to have a fight, and I've said if that becomes a big issue we will make tweaks.
I also don't think the tackling ranges are a problem. Killing support has gotten substantially easier over the last couple years and tackling has gotten harder as a result. I think having some support ships around that are difficult to fly well, have a different style than recons but provide some similar functions seems really positive for gangs of many sizes.
One thing I can agree about is that it's important for them to be close enough to be countered and the extreme lock range might put that at risk. That said, their lock range is almost the same as the t1 disruption frigs which are faster and have smaller sig, and no one is saying t1 disruption frigs are impossible to deal with.
I'll make sure we talk about this internally some before they ship and if others feel concerned we can tune the ewar or lock ranges down a bit. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2966

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Posted - 2013.10.08 16:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
My stance is definitely not "it's okay if this destroys the meta because we can change it after", it's that I don't think it will mess up the meta but if it did somehow I would be here to fix it.
I talked with Fozzie a bit and we may be up for making some small changes to some of the range bonuses and maybe to their mass to make them a bit easier to catch.
Still going to wait a little longer before committing to any changes.
ps - this is a great way to start a post "Dear ******* christ on a stick." =D |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2966

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Posted - 2013.10.08 16:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Can you convince me that they are? The most popular Recon sees less airtime than a Stabber. I'm sure that won't sound sufficient but I'm not sure how it could be proven.
Quote:that sounds like a shrug off and a dismissal of our views like I feel like acknowledging this type of thing may not be smart but if it isn't obvious from my interaction here on the forums I can say it very straight forwardly - I would never intentionally dismiss the input of players, no matter how much I might disagree. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2968

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Posted - 2013.10.08 17:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
I can change Stabber to Cerberus and it's still true, and training time is similar.
I'm not saying this is a perfect way of identifying power, just saying that screaming recons are OP isn't either and I'm not sure how we're going to get anywhere. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
2986

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Posted - 2013.10.09 14:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alright you win !
Yesterday spent some time talking internally and I think I'm going to make some tweaks to tone them down a little. Not sure exactly what the numbers will be yet and I'm not in the office today but I'll post here letting you know when we work something out.
Thanks for the help |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3001

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Posted - 2013.10.11 11:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Okay I've updated the OP with the newest iteration.
Highlights include: Bonuses adjusted for Kitsune, Keres and Hyena to shorten the range slightly for each
Mass increased for all four by 10%
Lowered lock range to match t1 disruption frigs
Lowered signature radius for all four
Small adjustments to maxvelocity for some and drone bandwidth tweaks for Sentinel and Keres
Two main things going on.
First, lowering the ewar ranges should draw them in a bit closer to the fight. The Kitsune will still be the longest effective range EAF but that's natural to ECM and there's not much more we can do. It was limited before only by the absurdly low lock range and while I don't want it to be out at 100k being effective, there's also no sensible way to pull it closer than this, but I think that's fine.
Second, adding mass and making some maxvelocity changes while also lowering their sig radius should make them easier to catch for frigs and other anti-support, while also increasing their survivability vs larger targets trying to shoot them from far away. This helps push them towards a more recon-ish play style and further from interceptors, which is what we want.
I expect that those of you hoping to use these will be a little disappointed, while those of expecting to fight against them might not think this is enough. Hopefully that means we are fairly close to a good spot for them. Regardless, please let me know what you think. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3009

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Posted - 2013.10.11 16:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'll put the drone back on the Sentinel. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3010

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Posted - 2013.10.11 19:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
To explain why to give back the drone so quickly - I think looking at the Sentinel relative to the rest of the class it seems unfairly allocated for offense, and we didn't intend for the class to be self sufficient offensively. That said, if that drone feels make or break to the people using it in a small niche, I don't think it's having a very impact outside the niche and therefor don't see a need to remove it.
I think the debate about the Sentinel's power overall is much more centered on the neut range, as others have said, but I actually don't think it needs to be shorter range. Energy war is powerful of course, but it doesn't have the same kind of binary and pronounced impact that the rest of the EAFs can have with disruptors/webs/ECM. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3010

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Posted - 2013.10.11 20:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quote:Will the new Sentinel/Crucifier model shown at Fanfest make it into Rubicon's release?
Not that I know of
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