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RMR: the half-assed patch

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Azuriel Talloth	Posted - 2006.01.22 15:55:00 - [1] Edited by: Azuriel Talloth on 22/01/2006 16:04:06 Over a month since patch went live: -missing Interdiction spheres for weeks, ships were useless without them -Interdiction spheres don't work as intended (see sig), and do not prevent warp if ship started aligning before bubble deployed -mining modules were missing for weeks (not that I care ) -Recon ships unable to use cloak with cynosural field, making them pointless for the role they were designed for -Carrier construction was not possible for weeks -Carriers have ridiculous bugs -Wasp drones made uber thanks to typo, took weeks to fix -Most new ships were given ridiculous volume, near impossible to transport till Jan (eg Interdictors 50k m3, Hulks 250k m3) -broken stacking penalty for Sensor Dampeners/Tracking Disruptors/even Cap Power Relays resulting in useless and overpowered ships RMR wasn't complete when it went live. I can understand some bugs slipping through, but the sheer number and importance of some of these is ridiculous. When it takes weeks to seed module BPOs into the game that were promised in the patch, it's fairly obvious the patch wasn't complete. Why not just delay it till it's done? Breaking the concurrent user record was nice and all, but I'd prefer a patch that doesn't screw the game around. A lot of these would have been noticed instantly on the Test Server had you given players the means to actually test the new ships. If your own QA staff can't catch these bugs, then maybe it's time to change that policy of no new ships on the test server. That or a longer testing period is needed. Now I'm pretty much a fanboy of this game, and plan to be playing for years. I don't like to see CCP acting this way, it's unprofessional and needs improvement. Interdictors: Destroyer-class vessels, designed to pull other vessels out of warp.
Doomed Predator	Posted - 2006.01.22 16:20:00 - [2] 1.like you could buy 1 right away, ammo had to be built 2.the thing would be owerpowered if it could 3.they needed to be built first 4.i think the cynosural field sais no mudoles can be activated when the field is in use 5.carriers needed capital construction yards to be built becose of their size 6.bugs will get fixed eventualy 7.ccp are only human,they were made it an eploit very fast 8.it was fixed 9.it will be fixed
Riley Craven	Posted - 2006.01.22 16:23:00 - [3] I agree with the op on all accounts. I also find it very disturbing that ccp has been doing huge changes to the mechanics of the game without telling anyone. There are also things in patch notes promised to us that never made it in game even today. I.E freighter cans. I knew a month before that patch got deployed that they were simply trying to do too much at once. Any idiot could see that. Why they have been rushing and doing sloppy work lately, no but they know.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.01.22 16:27:00 - [4] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 22/01/2006 16:26:57 Originally by: Doomed Predator 4.i think the cynosural field sais no mudoles can be activated when the field is in use No, you can't even FIT a cyno with a cloak. If you do, NEITHER will work, EVER, IIRC. -- Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2006.01.22 17:10:00 - [5] Whine whine lalalala, I surrender to your whine
Ashis	Posted - 2006.01.22 17:17:00 - [6] I completely agree with the OP. Just scroll down the (Multi-patch notes for RMR to see the list of broken expectations. QA? What QA? Let me add to the OPs list with some areas I have touched. Keep in mind that none of these bugs are actually recognized by CCP - if you take a look at their so-called Known Issues. Who knows what else is out there? - No Bloodlines - no-brainer. - "Technological advances" may have been made in manufacturing, but T2 Production got kicked in the gnads cause no one had the fore-thought about the RAM problem. - Elite Mining Barges had an incorrect packaged size. - POS Maint arrays still take Cap. - There are no frieghter containers, contrary to any "last minute entry" that CCP took credit for. - Mining modules were/are broken. - The corporate access management process was bugged to high hell. - I'm still getting a wierd error message when I use jump gates. No, I'm not gong to bug report it - I have seen how effective bug reports are. -- I want to love this game. It's success at this point is not because of CCPs QA attempts, but in spite of them. CCP needs to hold their game to a higher standard of QA. It is already gaining the reputation of being flippantly patched, and down more then up - and frankly that's a deserved reputation considering its age. Someone in Iceland needs to start taking pride in having things released well. __________
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2006.01.22 17:21:00 - [7] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Doomed Predator 4.i think the cynosural field sais no mudoles can be activated when the field is in use No, you can't even FIT a cyno with a cloak. If you do, NEITHER will work, EVER, IIRC. You can fit both but neither will work as the game thinks theyre both cloaking devices. Putting one offline doesnt help either. Originally by: Doomed Predator 1.like you could buy 1 right away, ammo had to be built The TECH 2 ships where available A LOT sooner then the TECH 1 Probes... -------------
LNX Flocki	Posted - 2006.01.22 17:27:00 - [8] Originally by: Macro Slasher Whine whine lalalala, I surrender to your whine at least it's a constructive whine. he presents valid issues and proposes valid measures that can be taken to prevent this from happening next time. I agree with the OP, this patch was rushed out, broke way too many things and it took way too long to fix the issues. And still not all issues are fixed.
Gonada	Posted - 2006.01.22 17:39:00 - [9] did you pay for the expansion/patch whatever you want to call it? are these bugs worse than any other mmorpg expansion release bugs? no to both counts, therefore all your whining is invalidated, use proper bug report channels to get its soved, useless whining on boards is just that, useless. cheese? -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Azuriel Talloth	Posted - 2006.01.22 18:50:00 - [10] Yeah... come back when you've spent over a month training skills for something that doesn't do what it was meant to. Interdictors: Destroyer-class vessels, designed to pull other vessels out of warp.
dantes inferno	Posted - 2006.01.22 19:01:00 - [11] Edited by: dantes inferno on 22/01/2006 19:02:30 at first i would flame the winners, as they had not given any time for ccp to fix the problems, but 5/6 weeks on and they are still there (the problems that is)...come off it guys, we know you worked hard to rush rmr for pre christmas release...and have been working hard since to fix the problems, but next time make sure the patch is ready and dont listen to the idiots whinning on the forums for a early release..cause they will be the first to cry when it aint perfect _____ "When mothers warned their children that the monster would get them, that monster was me. I was the nightmare that kept
Seleene	Posted - 2006.01.22 19:08:00 - [12] I hate threads like this one, but... After all the effort to get the game patched so we could build them, Carriers are not only broken, but all of the modules needed to maximize thier potential have not been seeded. I don't get it. - History of the MC Teaser Trailer
Trepkos	Posted - 2006.01.22 19:09:00 - [13] And I remembered, the pleads for CCP to hurry up and release and all the craziness. This is what you get, its not CCP's fault, its not EVE's fault, its all you impatient players rushing CCP to deploy this patch. -------- Recruitment
Ashis	Posted - 2006.01.22 19:28:00 - [14] Ohh... I got called a whiner... that obviously invalidates any criticism that I bring up... oh wait... I'm not in grade school anymore, so name calling has no effect on me... good thing I remembered that. CCP's quality control system was obviously designed by the same people that hold this convention: CCPs Qulaity Control Convention HQ At some point even the fan-boi has to say "wow, this sucks." If you aren't at that point yet with all this then send my your resume, I have some positions open that I need some good non-thinking yes-men for. Ideal for you. No one paid for the expansion, but I gladly would have paid for the expansion if it was implemented with any level of professional level of quality assurance. I encourage CCP to start charging for expansions if it will mean that we can finally have some level of - I dunno - professional code testing and management? <gasp> And yes, this is a hell of a lot worse then other MMOs that aren't just out of the gate. Good on CCP for taking the game down for the day to implement it. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the fact that the list of what was in the patch was not delivered - and obviously not tested - at all. One of many examples: currently ship maintenance arrays do not online modules without using cap. How could you test this? Take 3 seconds to fit a module from a ship maintenance array. Doesn't work. Wow. That was hard to figure out. I don't mean to be discouraging to the devs - honestly - but there is a time for encouragement, and a time for a kick in the hieny. I know the Devs intentions are good and that they want only the best for EvE (moreso then players - as their lively hood depends on it) but I'm telling you straight up that from this side of the fence your quality control looks like crap. Your GMs look like powerless paper pushers that have no ability/tools/capability to do any level of critical thinking. I'm not going to mention server lag - cause hell, you have done everything you can with that and have been transparent about it - good on you! My only hope is that enough people see there is a problem, have the gnads to say it, that you turn it around, and that we all have the courtesy to say "good job" when you do. But I suspect that all of these posts will be relegated to the "don't listen to the whining players" pile. And you don't need to have customer relationship experience to extrapolate where that will get you. And do yourself a favour and invest in your CRM __________
LNX Flocki	Posted - 2006.01.22 19:49:00 - [15] Edited by: LNX Flocki on 22/01/2006 19:50:22 Originally by: Gonada did you pay for the expansion/patch whatever you want to call it? I really hate how all criticism is countered by this flawed argument. Yes I like the way patches are done in EVE (mandatory and free for everyone) but it can't be an excuse for releasing rushed and buggy patches. Originally by: Gonada are these bugs worse than any other mmorpg expansion release bugs? Probably not but does that in any way warrant a rushed patch? Just because other MMOs suck, should EVE suck too? No, and it doesn't. CCP has produced an awesome game - all I ask for is that they apply basic QA standards to their patches like they promised to many times in the past. Originally by: Gonada no to both counts, therefore all your whining is invalidated, use proper bug report channels to get its soved, useless whining on boards is just that, useless. The bug reporting system is a joke. You can't check on already submitted bugs, you can't amend your own bugs, you can't do anything what every basic bug reporting system allows you to do. I do report bugs when I see them unless it has already been discussed many times on the forum. But as there's no feedback whatsoever to bugreports there's simply no point in creating decent reports. Bottom line: QA has to improve. CCP doesn't give us many tools to help them so they gotta do it themselves. And they promised to do so, alas without any result so far.
F'nog	Posted - 2006.01.22 20:42:00 - [16] Normally I don't care about these threads, as they're mostly stupid, childish whines, but for once we have one that is well thought-out, has proof, and offers sensible advice to CCP. What is the world coming to? I think there were several big issues that contributed to the problems with the patch: 1) The devs wanted to get the patch out before X-mas. Big mistake. Too many companies do this, and it usually bites them on the ass. I give kudos to the boys at Bethesda who had the cajones to push back Oblivion's release until after X-mas so that the game would be good enough to meet their standards. 2) The devs gave in to whining from players who wanted the patch NOW. This, of course, led to point 1 above. 3) CW went so well that perhaps the devs got a little too hopeful that the same would happen with RMR, and they'd be able to handle everything without any problems. So I hope they finally learn from this that it's never good to rush major patches into the game. I certainly, and I think many would agree, wouldn't have minded waiting a little longer to make sure that such noticeable problems weren't there. I know there will always be bugs, but such obvious ones shouldn't be there, especially after all the experience CCP has accumulated in patching Eve. Originally by: rowbin hod Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage.
Lardarz B'stard	Posted - 2006.01.22 20:50:00 - [17] From experience, CCP respond to IDEAS and Suggestions on the forums, not general complaints about whole patches. From the OP there is one suggestion, that is the use of new ships on the test server. Fair enough, good idea. The rest of the post and following threads will not actually achieve anything, and will most likely result in Oveur / a dev responding to something they needn't bother with. Their time is better spent looking at ways to fix the stuff you mention, which I am sure they already know about because some people do actually submit bug reports and petitions properly. maggot for the win
Stratosfear	Posted - 2006.01.22 21:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Doomed Predator 1.like you could buy 1 right away, ammo had to be built 2.the thing would be owerpowered if it could 3.they needed to be built first 4.i think the cynosural field sais no mudoles can be activated when the field is in use 5.carriers needed capital construction yards to be built becose of their size 6.bugs will get fixed eventualy 7.ccp are only human,they were made it an eploit very fast 8.it was fixed 9.it will be fixed Where to begin?
Kasibee'an	Posted - 2006.01.22 21:18:00 - [19] I'm personally of the opinion that RMR was deployed pre-Christmas in order that the included optimizations were implemented in time for inevitable increased server demand. I think if we were still playing Cold-War right now we would have seen quite a few more server resets and stuck/lag petitions than we did over the holiday period. I think if this was the case then CCP made the right decision because I'd rather have a more playable game now and a live with a small percentage of broken content (that will inevitably be fixed shortly) than be logging off night after night from lag related frustration. You might call this pure speculation, which it is. All I can say is that CCP said resolutely that it would not implement RMR until they felt it was ready. I don't think a buggy RMR would have been deployed before Christmas unless there was a very good reason to and it seems like a good one to me. All said and done, we are barely 1 month into RMR, 2 weeks of which have been public holidays and we've still got a content patch to come very shortly. I understand the frustrations but I think a bit more patience is called for.
Esrevatem Dlareme	Posted - 2006.01.22 21:46:00 - [20] I was on the test server, trying out some of the new stuff, esp the drone stuff, before the patch went live. I esp tried out the drone control modules....which got turned into capital ship modules post patch. Also, I heard from a QA person (on the forums) that the public wasn't allowed to test any new ships. And yet I remember flying a brutix before they went live... Honestly, I can see why they refuse to accelerate training on the test server for everyone, but they need to let at least a few of the proven testers that do submit good bug reports try out the new stuff like the carriers, so that at least some of these stupid bugs don't make it through. I remember posts on how buggy DN's were when they were released. QA has obviously failed us again. ______________________________________________ As I stand, dazzled by the shattered twilight, I think back... I think back to all the events that have brought me here. And I realize... I realize I was ment to come here. Someone wanted me to come here. And now, I have come here.
Azuriel Talloth	Posted - 2006.01.22 22:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Kasibee'an I don't think a buggy RMR would have been deployed before Christmas unless there was a very good reason to and it seems like a good one to me. If that were the case, they would have released it as a smaller Optimisations patch, and not hyped up all the new content. Deception helps neither them, nor their players. Interdictors: Destroyer-class vessels, designed to pull other vessels out of warp.
Drew Peacock	Posted - 2006.01.22 22:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Gonada did you pay for the expansion/patch whatever you want to call it? Well, if I and all the other people who pay for the game didn't pay for it. Who did?
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.01.22 22:41:00 - [23] yes, i am glad CCP provide free expansions. But my one piece of advice about it before christmas was "RMR looks cool, but don;t deploy until january - from whats on SiSi, i dont think tis going to be finished before christmas" well, january is almost over, and i still don't think its finished
Nafri	Posted - 2006.01.22 23:14:00 - [24] Originally by: Lardarz B'stard From experience, CCP respond to IDEAS and Suggestions on the forums, not general complaints about whole patches. From the OP there is one suggestion, that is the use of new ships on the test server. Fair enough, good idea. The rest of the post and following threads will not actually achieve anything, and will most likely result in Oveur / a dev responding to something they needn't bother with. Their time is better spent looking at ways to fix the stuff you mention, which I am sure they already know about because some people do actually submit bug reports and petitions properly. well its customer feedback, since thy want to produce a product which the customers like its necessary to tell them what sucks. Sitting around and no complaining will never lead to anything dealing with corporations
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2006.01.22 23:17:00 - [25] I imagine it'll only become more problematic when motherships, titans, and the other new ships are brought into play.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.01.22 23:20:00 - [26] Originally by: Azuriel Talloth Yeah... come back when you've spent over a month training skills for something that doesn't do what it was meant to. BOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO get over it... so you are in the same boat most other pilots in the game who have areas of the game that need work or time-to-release. Things will get sorted as they always do. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.22 23:20:00 - [27] Originally by: Gonada did you pay for the expansion/patch whatever you want to call it? no, but then again I had no choice but to either download it or stop playing forever, so stfu with that argument. Quote: are these bugs worse than any other mmorpg expansion release bugs? tbh the only recent patches that beat some of the things ccp **** up with RMR is the total overhaul of SWG and TMO. Quote:** cheese? tard?
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.01.22 23:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Azuriel Talloth Originally by: Kasibee'an I don't think a buggy RMR would have been deployed before Christmas unless there was a very good reason to and it seems like a good one to me. If that were the case, they would have released it as a smaller Optimisations patch, and not hyped up all the new content. Deception helps neither them, nor their players. Nor do people calling them decievers, since they are NOT SOE and they have been very forthcoming with vitals about where this game is headed, how they feel it should be implemented, pretty set in their design documents since Castor AND allowing player feed back to evolve the game mechanics. You won't get that anywhere else... beleive me I played em all. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Kasibee'an	Posted - 2006.01.22 23:28:00 - [29] Originally by: Azuriel Talloth Originally by: Kasibee'an I don't think a buggy RMR would have been deployed before Christmas unless there was a very good reason to and it seems like a good one to me. If that were the case, they would have released it as a smaller Optimisations patch, and not hyped up all the new content. Deception helps neither them, nor their players. My belief is that the optimization changes were intrinsic to RMR and if you're releasing a major content patch, you need some major content. It just wasn't finished yet.
Ashis	Posted - 2006.01.22 23:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Kaylana Syi BOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO get over it... so you are in the same boat most other pilots in the game who have areas of the game that need work or time-to-release. Things will get sorted as they always do. This was just such an insiteful, well constructed, and applicable post I had to comment. You have convinced me. I was sitting here with a vision for something better, a want for a level of accountability, and a hope for development that would recapture my confidence. But your masterful argument has made me do a 180 - it is clear to me now that mediocrity is the way forward for Eve. Originally I was thinking that Eve was cashing in on it's uniqueness in the MMO scene that has given it a monopoly on a specific type of player - someone looking for a deeper, more complex, and challenging game. My fear was that if another game came along that also catered to this type of player that Eve may not fair well, given that its technical and customer relationship support had not scaled well. My thought initially was that resting on the laurels of identifying a segment of the market that would enjoy this type of game, without a sound model for technical development and customer support, would not be a good business model. But I do now see your point Kaylana. Let's push for medocrity. Lets make sure that the game bounces up and down like a yo-yo with every patch for years to come. Let's not tell CCP that we want something better then a list of broken expectations and untested content. Lets make sure that they know that we hope every patch needs over a month to get "sorted out." That's the Eve I want to play too! You, Kaylana, are a super-genius. How do you do it? With great restraint I will refrain from posting any personal attack against a person that can form such a concise argument as BOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO. __________
Winterblink	Posted - 2006.01.22 23:43:00 - [31] Edited by: Winterblink on 22/01/2006 23:44:07 Originally by: Ashis This was just such an insiteful, well constructed, and applicable post I had to comment. No you didn't. You could have ignored and moved on, commenting on the other constructive posts made to this thread. Why was that so hard? Warp Drive Active \| Nature Vraie
Ashis	Posted - 2006.01.23 00:01:00 - [32] Originally by: Winterblink No you didn't. You could have ignored and moved on, commenting on the other constructive posts made to this thread. Why was that so hard? It probably would have been the wiser choice - the forums are getting to me. Admittedly that was just the last of a number of equally insightful posts - and since it was the last one, I didn't have to scroll up as far to hit the "Quote" button. Laziness ftw. That, and my blood is really boiling over another EvE issue seemingly unrelated to the patch (here) which is equally related to the underlying issue of quality assurance. __________
Winterblink	Posted - 2006.01.23 01:23:00 - [33] Originally by: Ashis It probably would have been the wiser choice - the forums are getting to me. Admittedly that was just the last of a number of equally insightful posts - and since it was the last one, I didn't have to scroll up as far to hit the "Quote" button. Laziness ftw. That, and my blood is really boiling over another EvE issue seemingly unrelated to the patch (here) which is equally related to the underlying issue of quality assurance. You won't hear any arguments from me on these issues. QA is vitally important in games as complicated as this, and it's entirely obvious by the issues that have popped up recently that there is room for improvement. But there's nothing to be gained for responding to the idiocy that hits the forums. EVE's not immune to it, and the more popular the game gets the more of this you'll see. Keep it constructive, and the folks in a position to do something will listen. Warp Drive Active \| Nature Vraie
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2006.01.24 14:02:00 - [34] I agree with the original poster. The RMR patch was on the Test server for about two-three weeks, and players themselves didn't even get a chance to try out any of the new ships types. Surely the idea of testing is to see if the mechanics of the game work, and if they work on a multitude of different PCs and playing styles. No wonder the Carriers have a million and one bugs, nobody but the Dev team got to fly them. It smacks of a desperate attempt to get the patch out before the holiday season kicked in. Bad idea. Of course you don't want to get bogged down in development hell, but as any Software Engineer will tell you Maintenance is the most costly part of any software life-cycle, both in time and money. Releasing something rife with bugs and inconsistencies simply makes the entire task of running EVE even harder. Rather than concentrating on what you want to do with the game, you end up answering a million calls of help. It's a good job that the pilots of EVE are self-sufficient and refuse to be spoon fed, otherwise this patch could have been a lot worse. Next time make sure you spend the time you need to get the job done, and make sure that the players actually get to 'Test' things on Test. The only testing anyone got to do was see how quickly one of the new ships could blow them up. The Firing Range
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.01.24 14:06:00 - [35] RMR definetly doesn't win the "CCPs least buggie patch" award, that's for sure. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
DaveW	Posted - 2006.01.24 15:00:00 - [36] The Tractor Beam is pretty cool.... _________________________________________________________________ "Please make the Fonts look like this..."
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.01.24 15:17:00 - [37] Originally by: Gonada did you pay for the expansion/patch whatever you want to call it? Yes, he pays his monthly fee Quote: are these bugs worse than any other mmorpg expansion release bugs? No, but that doesnt excuse them? In no other industry than gaming do companies get away with their product being only usable 50% of the time (re:lag). If you bought a car then found out you could only use it properly between 1000-1100 and 1200-1700 each day, and the rest of the time the steering was locked up, would you defend the company that sold you the car? Quote: no to both counts, therefore all your whining is invalidated, use proper bug report channels to get its soved, useless whining on boards is just that, useless. If there was no word filter, I'd have a lot more to say to you. As it is, you're just an idiot. Quote: cheese? has a larger IQ than you do. The Op makes valid points. You make none. The Eve Guild Wars Project!
jason hill	Posted - 2006.01.24 15:34:00 - [38] aaaahhhh feel the love everybody "THE HUMAN SHIELD"
Serilla	Posted - 2006.01.24 19:53:00 - [39] Edited by: Serilla on 24/01/2006 19:54:42 RMR patch was NO DIFFRENT THAN ANY CCP PATCH. They have ALWAYS been bugged, missing content and sometimes funny stuff that is just laughable. since Castor, ppl have been complaining that all patches are broken and and half arsed. BEFORE castor we were all complaining because there was hardly any patches.. Things will never change. edit acctually prefer bugged patches to no patches IMO edit combatYour 250mm Railgun II perfectly strikes Sansha's Enslaver, wrecking for 411.4 damage.
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2006.01.25 00:44:00 - [40] The main thing that bugs me (excuse the pun)is I remember the big deal ccp made about starting it's QA department. Now let's be honest since they hired them the patches with maybe the exception of the cold war patch have got worse I mean the fact they waited nearly a year before they even hired a QA team always amazed me.
Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol	Posted - 2006.01.25 00:48:00 - [41] Whats he rush CCP? --------------------------------------------- <Make ECM Burst useful> ECM Burst Idea!
Xtci	Posted - 2006.01.25 01:51:00 - [42] I just love the way people gravitate to the negatives and not once mention all the positive stuff that has been added with this expansion.

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