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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4264
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Posted - 2013.10.13 02:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Shoot the tower, steal the mods, sell the moon.
Bam, now you're profiting from clearing moons. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4265
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Posted - 2013.10.13 06:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:How long do you think it takes to remove an undefended large tower in high sec ? Assume a small corp. 20 people in it at most. Be sure to consider what they want a high sec POS for, and what that implies about their trained skills.
If they can't be bothered to do it themselves, they can pay someone to do it for them, find an empty moon, or buy a moon from someone.
Quote:How do you plan to keep the attacking pilots paying enough attention during the attack that they can respond to the defenders showing up ?
"CCP should magic our enemies towers away because we might risk our ships by not being at the keyboard while shooting our enemies towers ourselves."
Quote:How much do high sec merc groups charge for removing an offline large tower ?
Ask them. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4265
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Posted - 2013.10.13 09:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:Why should someone who is unwilling, or unable, to fuel a POS be able to claim a moon and stop someone who is willing and able to fuel a POS from setting up their own ?
Or, in the extreme case: Why should someone who is not even subscribed to Eve be able to claim moons for himself ?
Why should someone who is unwilling or unable to shoot down a structure that can do nothing to fight back be able to take real estate from someone who claimed it first?
Quote:If you don't answer my question, I'll just assume you realize that giving an honest answer would be devastating for your argument.
Exactly EHP/DPS seconds. Do your own homework. Armageddons with Sentries and Pulse lasers tend to be preferred. I'll let you work out why.
Quote:Are you saying you think that people should be able to earn ISK with no risk, and no input on their part ?
They're risking a tower.
Quote:Because that's what offline high sec towers are. You just plant the tower, then wait for someone to want the moon enough to pay for it. Worst case, you just recover the tower and sell it to get your ISK back. Should someone war dec you, and actually start attacking the POS you can wait till boredom has defeated them, then swing by in a single ship and start popping attackers. Now they're risking their ships and inputting quite a bit of effort, especially since you can just kill the tower when none of your wardec targets are online.
Quote:Are there any high sec merc groups willing to take out a high sec POS ?
Does it make a difference if you can convince the mercs that everyone in the corp that owns the POS isn't subscribed ?
Ask them. They're over in C&P. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4387
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Posted - 2013.12.01 08:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gigan Amilupar wrote:This. IMHO after a tower has had no fuel for a week it should lose the ability to go into reinforce and lose its bubble and everything.
I'll raise you that, and suggest that those things should happen immediately, as soon as it runs out of fuel.
Oh, wait...
Quote:Ideally, hack tower, remove everything, salvage tower for salvage, profit.
Shoot tower, remove everything hanging from it, profit. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4387
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Posted - 2013.12.01 19:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Zvaarian the Red wrote:RubyPorto wrote: Shoot tower, remove everything hanging from it, profit.
Why are some people so resistant to alternatives to structure bashing? It's strange...
If you want something that someone else has, why aren't you willing to fight for it? "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4387
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Posted - 2013.12.02 02:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zvaarian the Red wrote:Shooting a POS that has been abandoned is not fighting.
Sure it is. If they decide to let the POS die and not to take the fight, that's their business.
Declare war and fight for the real estate you want to claim, just like everywhere else in EVE.
Oh, and who says it's been abandoned just because it's not being fueled? "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4387
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Posted - 2013.12.02 03:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zvaarian the Red wrote:Your logic is totally backwards. How about they actually fuel up their damn POS or lose it without a fight? I mean they have claimed that moon, so it should be their responsibility to maintain it. If they don't they should lose it. The game shouldn't force others to wardec them or send them any notice when the POS they can't be bothered with maintaining is hacked (which should totally be doable with any offline POS). That's just rewarding laziness and/or incompetency in my opinion.
Outside of HS, you can easily kill an offline POS before anyone is likely to show up to defend it.
If you'd like to avail yourselves of the protections of HS, you have to accept that other people will avail themselves of those same protections. That means you need to declare war or accept CONCORD's justice for any aggression.
If you can't be bothered to take what you want, why should you get it? "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4395
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Posted - 2013.12.02 20:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:POSs are to be defended by fleets, not CONCORD.
So declare war, and it won't be. If you dislike CONCORD as a whole, it's a simple enough mechanic to escape.
Quote:If a corp is too lazy to fuel their POS so that it reinforces they deserve to lose that POS without warning.
If you're unwilling to attack someone's property, why should you expect to be able to take their land?
Quote:Having a mechanic whereby anchored POSs naturally decay or can be removed (this is EVE, stealing is not only allowed, but encouraged) for profit is a logical step.
You're free to steal any hanging modules once you tear down the tower. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4395
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Posted - 2013.12.02 23:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:If players won't defend their tower (and leave it to CONCORD, or aren't willing to fuel it) they should lose it. Thats just a fact.
I'm not sure you're familiar with the meaning of that word. The word "should" is very rarely found in an actual statement of fact.
I'm still looking for a reason why you should be able to claim someone else's real estate without risk of a fight.
Once again, if you dislike CONCORD, you're free to leave their jurisdiction. While you still wish to avail yourself of their protection, you must accept that others will be able to do so as well.
Quote:If everyone left the ISS and never returned, it would fall into the Earth in a multi-billion dollar crater. Same logic applies to EVE, if you won't maintain your stuff, you lose your stuff.
So where's your post calling for the ability to steal from
Quote:Your entire argument hinges on "I'm not willing to defend something, but you won't fight me for it." If you won't fight for it (fuel it so it RFs) why can't I steal it?
You've been the one claiming that an unfueled tower will not be defended. You've assumed that as a premise for your argument, but you've made no attempt to show evidence of its validity.
In HS, towers, like player ships and everything else, receive protection in the form of a war declaration timer before they can be legally attacked. If you'd like to call for a removal of CONCORD, that would certainly be an interesting conversation.
Quote:Theft is very EVE, there's no denying that.
So where's your call for the ability to steal from other people's undefended NPC station hangers? "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4395
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Posted - 2013.12.03 05:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zvaarian the Red wrote:And I'm still waiting for you to explain why being lazy and/or incompetent should be rewarded by arbitrary game mechanics.
You're confused about who needs to answer that question. Why should people too lazy and/or incompetent to destroy a "undefended" tower be rewarded with the arbitrary and unique ability to commit aggressive action in HS without CONCORD oversight or intervention?
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Fine, let me rephrase: If someone can't be bothered to defend their tower by fueling it and insuring a stront timer, they will lose it.
Yes, as soon as someone shoots it. Just like every other owned bit of pixels sitting in space in EVE. In HS, shooting something that someone owns requires a wardec to avoid loosing your ship.
Quote:Reason to claim someone's stuff without a fight: there doesn't need to be one. If someone leaves a couch by the side of the road its a free for all, first to the couch can keep it. The owner of the dead tower no longer wants it (as was evidenced by their abandoning it) so why should I fight for something nobody else wants?
The tower is anchored, unlike the couch. You're claiming the right to steal someone's house and take their land because the lights are off. If you'd like someone's land, bulldoze the house.
Actually abandoned towers can be removed by a quick petition to the GMs, as in those cases there's no corp to declare war on.
Quote:I think the better question is why should players be forced to shoot a structure that nobody cares about? Its like grinding regions of Sov after the war is over, its completely unnecessary.
What evidence do you have that nobody cares about it? The fact that you're scared to shoot it implies you believe otherwise.
As to your continued attempt to poison the well, I've taken down reaction farms before with subcapitals before. Waffles doesn't have supers and doesn't use caps. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4395
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Posted - 2013.12.03 06:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zvaarian the Red wrote:This question has already been answered. If a group chooses to not refuel their POS they relinquish their claim to it in my eyes.
So you keep treating this opinion as fact. Why do you relinquish ownership of your house when you turn out the lights? Why do you relinquish ownership of your car when you turn the engine off?
Quote:Beyond that, we don't all have capital fleets to vaporize POS's in a blink, especially in wormholes. Being able to salvage dead sticks rather than being forced to bash them for hours to remove them is so obviously superior gameplay-wise I don't even know what to say to your inability to see it.
Once again, why should you be able to take space from someone who already has it without offering a fight?
"Because I don't like to fight" is not an adequate answer. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
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