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When is an exploit not an exploit?

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Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.08.27 00:50:00 - [1] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 27/08/2003 00:53:29 I'm fully expecting to be flamed for this post but I just hope it provokes some interesting debate on certain players moral and ethic codes. This post is both in relation to this thread and also my own observation. Let us set the scenario. The character: ShockAndAwe and 2 members of the corporation TJM. The setting: Luminaire-Algogille jumpgate The background: ShockAndAwe is currently the proud owner of a -1.5 security rating and a 1.5 million isk bounty. ShockAndAwe's current "trick" is to target passersby who, having already received the yellow threat box on their screen when they come out of warp to the gate, then see the yellow threat turn to orange after he target locks them. Now, the problem lies in the fact that, having only been at that jumpgate for 15 minutes tonight myself, ShockAndAwe was responsible for the destruction of 2 cruisers and one battleship by sentry guns. This occurs because the pilots fired upon him after mistakenly thinking that, with a 1.5M bounty and a -1.5 negative security rating, he could be shot at will. Of course, this isn't the case and they were destroyed pretty damn quickly. This is where I'm expecting to be flamed. You will all say the cruiser/BS pilots should be aware of the rules and should know not to attack when the threat is orange. I totally agree. My point is this: ShockandAwe is fully aware of this little trick he is pulling and is using the ignorance of others for his own gain. Those 3 pilots weren't the first and won't be the last. It isn't his fault that players don't know the rules of engagement, but can it be said it is the players faults for not knowing the rules of engagement? No. The REAL problem (casting aisde ShockandAwe's low underhanded tactics) lies in the fact we have had no real and proper explanation of the rules of engagement. I could probably muster up a pretty clear and concise explanation of when it is and when it isn't safe to shoot first. However, what does the current n00b know? Sod all, if my little experiment using an alt is anything to go by. I asked a few questions in the DCM corp. channel tonight to some players and not one of them realised you couldn't shoot someone with a -1.5 security rating in systems above 0.5 rating. The manual says nothing of this and the only explanation offered by CCP is much like the notice of the destruction of Authur Dents council house - placed somewhere people are unlikely to go. Namely, here. The answer to "When is an exploit not an exploit?" is when you're exploting the ignorance of the players and not the game mechanics. Let's get the current rules of engagement added as an ingame tutorial and see the end of griefers like ShockAndAwe. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Endureth	Posted - 2003.08.27 00:55:00 - [2] Sucks don't it? Meybe you should be less trigger happy. Or maybe CCP should fix the game. -E
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.08.27 01:00:00 - [3] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 27/08/2003 01:02:20 Try telling that to the guy who lost a Megathorn in about 10 seconds. I understand that ShockAndAwe isn't an exploiter and that CCP don't have to "fix" anything except make it clear to new players (and old) that this is now that instead of having to sift through a forum (with no search function) and a support page that is pretty hard to navigate. It's 2am and my eyes hurt from playing Eve for 15 hours. When I wake up in 6 hours I fully expect myself to be flamed like nobody has ever been flamed before but, as some of you are aware, I've always supported CCP and think that they do a great job. It could be better in this instance though. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Gan Howorth	Posted - 2003.08.27 01:09:00 - [4] Hmm, l make a point of knowing the latest about these sorts of games. Mainly because its self evidently not entirely documented and its constantly evolving. I dont see how someone could get to owning a megathron and not know these things. Frankly it ****es me off that l'm miles away from getting such a beast when someone like this seems barely sentient and is jollying around in one like a Moss Side twoccer. Pointless jealousy aside, CCP could address this better. But how when it transpires that only a minority actually read the forums...or anything it would seem?
Gan Howorth	Posted - 2003.08.27 01:10:00 - [5] Oh yeah and Josh, what sort of civil servant are you that can play Eve for 15 hours on a weekday. You aren't a spook are you?
loci	Posted - 2003.08.27 01:46:00 - [6] concord concurs that the system is ****
HendriX	Posted - 2003.08.27 02:05:00 - [7] Josh, two callouts I would like to make that come from your post(btw I totally agree): - Eve manual should be updated frequently and released as a PDF document thru the website, mass mailing ppl and letting them know its updated (If CCP cant do it, volunteers can be found to do it in section by section, or whole of it, I volunteer for one), - The current system of notifying customers about the changes should be wievable on the first page of Eve, rahter than being hidden in some Q&A stuff. Thank you, HendriX
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.08.27 03:59:00 - [8] Something is considered an exploit when someone uses a known bug to take certain advantage. There is no bug here, so, no exploit. _______________________________________________
Entity	Posted - 2003.08.27 04:00:00 - [9] It's a form of griefing though.
SC0RPIAN	Posted - 2003.08.27 04:01:00 - [10] I have a problem with the word "exploit" How does one know what is an exploit or not? Is selling isogen at 64 isk per unit an exploit? You will all say no. But you can sell isogen quite often at 64, even to NPC's. It is a part of the game. ------ Now lets say something like this happens ------ You figure out a way to make your ship warp without using any capacitor. (Without hacking into CCP's structure, or changing files... ect) Is warping your ship without using capacitor an exploit? You will all say yes. But lets say you did this capacitor trick, within the limits of not cheating/hacking. I did something that CCP allowed to happen, in their programming. CCP allows isogen to sell at 64 isk per unit to NPC's. No one calls this an exploit, do they? So why should a trick, like the no capacitor drain on warping be called an exploit? (I dont know how to warp without using capacitor...so dont jump on me for "exploiting") Im just saying, that there is no way to tell what an exploit is. If you can do it in-game, without hacking, changing files and **** like that... I would say it is fine, and it shouldnt be bashed or punishable. Just my 2 cents... I hate when people say exploiter, or exploits. To me, it is a cheat, a hack or something like that. CCP shouldnt punish people for doing things that THEY allow to happen in-game... (without hacking and stuff) Thanks, SCORPIAN
SC0RPIAN	Posted - 2003.08.27 04:02:00 - [11] Once again, i made up the capacitor trick thing... Pure Example
Saladin	Posted - 2003.08.27 04:22:00 - [12] I think a lot of people are misreading Joshua's post. I believe (and feel free to correct me Joshua) that when he uses the term 'exploit' he does not mean it in the technical mmorpg sense, but in the normal sense of the word. By the dictionary definition of exploitation, then no one can argue that people's ignorance is being exploited here. All Joshua is asking here is that CCP make the documentation for the rules of engagement and the consequences of hostile acts to be clearly documented in a high visibility location. This will reduce the instances of people getting tricked and loosing their hard earned ships and equipment. This will also reduce the number of petitions on incidents like this, which is a good thing right? I don't see anything wrong with what he suggested, and would like to add my voice to his on this matter --------------------------- (c) Copyright Saladin, 2005. Any editing of this post by a third party will be in violation United States Internet Copyright law 46525 of 2003.
Molly	Posted - 2003.08.27 04:27:00 - [13] When is a carebear a carebear? When he posts like Joshua.
Singha Miasong	Posted - 2003.08.27 04:32:00 - [14] Stop trying to justify something that is wrong moronic paraphrase:"i can buy a gun at a chain store, and buy bullets too. so that must mean i can shoot anything i want...thats the same as me using a method in a game to be a griefing cheater..." Cheating is cheating, a criminal act is a criminal act, the severity of the offense is up to the court to decide, or in eve's case, the GM's and DEV's. those that can't win by working within the rules deserve to be banned, so go suck your thumb and whine about all the carebears that wont let you cheat, somewhere else...
Ruulex DeMors	Posted - 2003.08.27 05:04:00 - [15] Quote: When is a carebear a carebear? When he posts like Joshua. Stow it Molly. Why is EVE's population falling? Because ppl like you and Tank that gank noobs in 1.0 space (yes I know it's fixed). Joshua has a very valid point, documentation should be made in-game. Not everyone comes here or to the website (which is not very user friendly). If EVE is to see the server pop start to rise it needs to be more friendly to new players instead of just saying here's mining laser there's a asteroid, target, activate laser, blah blah blah...The only combat rules that is gives is how to lock and fire. Nothing on rules of engagement. I make sure all my Corp-mates know the rules of engagement, reguardless on how long they have played (it annoys some, but they see why and understand). Am I calling the guy in the Mega a noob? Yes, he didn't know the rules even though he had a ship worth 20 times as much as my Thorax. Is it his fault he didn't know the rules? No, there should be no reason anyone has to come to this forum or website to get info on game rules. It should be in-game and easy to access. Is what screwball with the -1.5 rating doing an exploit? No. Is it griefing? IMO yes. Should he be punished? Not by CCP, it's their fault the info isn't easily accessed in-game not his. Heck he is making easy money with NO RISK...isn't that why you want trade nerfed Molly? Because there is little to no risk? Nerf this guys easy money habit by putting out info in-game. Or make it to where you can kill anyone below -1.0 sec rating w/o fear of Concord... The Devs can choose which one is less drastic and easier to program. ------------------------------------- Interm-CEO for EVE Marshals http://www.EVEMarshals.com
Molly	Posted - 2003.08.27 05:34:00 - [16] "Stow it Molly. Why is EVE's population falling? Because ppl like you and Tank that gank noobs in 1.0 space (yes I know it's fixed)." Really? Oh my god. ***Cat had 300 Million ISK in her wallet, dropped 250k Isogen and 4 x Partiall Cargo Hull Expander I as I shot her in 1.0. Others were similar. Considered a noob? Holy . How much would him make not a noob? Since it is fixed now as you say it, shouldn't the eve population increase again? Don't try to argue with me if you know a about what I have shot and if you know a ** about why the eve population is rising or falling.
Ruulex DeMors	Posted - 2003.08.27 05:36:00 - [17] Quote: "Stow it Molly. Why is EVE's population falling? Because ppl like you and Tank that gank noobs in 1.0 space (yes I know it's fixed)." Really? Oh my god. ***Cat had 300 Million ISK in her wallet, dropped 250k Isogen and 4 x Partiall Cargo Hull Expander I as I shot her in 1.0. Others were similar. Considered a noob? Holy . How much would him make not a noob? Since it is fixed now as you say it, shouldn't the eve population increase again? Don't try to argue with me if you know a about what I have shot and if you know a ** about why the eve population is rising or falling. Good the reaction I was looking for. Same way I feel about ppl with valid points about CCP's short falls be called Carebears.... ------------------------------------- Interm-CEO for EVE Marshals http://www.EVEMarshals.com
Molly	Posted - 2003.08.27 05:46:00 - [18] Some points are valid. Right. But he used the word exploit, the word griefer and asked for an out-game solution (which already exists btw) to end the playstyle of a player. Typical carebear, only a better skilled one. It is really not that hard to differ between yellow, orange and red and read some updated online documentation or ask in your corp or help channel before you do something dangerous like openinig fire on someone. But since I am a nice person, I will repost the part of the documentation Joshua is asking for, you can find it in the Support part of this site under Answers: Why can't I freely attack wanted players, or place a bounty on them? There are varying levels of criminality. The mere fact that a player is sought by CONCORD does not automatically signify that he qualifies as an automatic target for everyone else. In the eyes of the official law, someone who's committed only minor crimes in EVE does not deserve to be shot. Note the word "official": Other players can place a bounty on someone's head if his security status falls below a certain level (currently -1.0) but this does not imply CONCORD approval. A player can only justifiably be attacked if his security status is below -5.0. If you see someone with a "Wanted" stamp, they're wanted by other players and not necessarily the system itself. The discrepancy in these levels is a result of the Empires' policy to keep personal bickering out of the hands of CONCORD, who are already taxed to the limit dealing with pirates and more serious criminals. Thus, attacking a player, regardless of his wanted status will result in Concord attacking YOU, if the attack takes place in a high security sector of Empire space. Keep in mind that bounty hunters always operate, if not on the wrong side of the law, then on its very edge. They're trespassing on CONCORD's territory and are therefore naturally not held in high regard by official forces. If you try to place a bounty on someone whose security status is high enough that he's clearly not a serious criminal in the eyes of CONCORD or the Empire then it won't be allowed, no matter what personal vendettas you may have. Neither can you expect help or any kind of assistance from the police if you choose to take up bounty hunting as a career. Violence and murder are serious crimes and are treated as such. If you're in pursuit of another player, your losses - of security, ship or life - are your own. "
Ruulex DeMors	Posted - 2003.08.27 05:57:00 - [19] Yes, it's in the FAQ. Wrangler had the courtesy to post it. But I still say that all this info should be available in the tutorial, or have the tutorial explain where to find the rules of engagement. Something. I know to look at websites/forums for answers, but some ppl don't. This may be their first MMO, and they are used to single player games where the mechanics/rules never change. Until then and some more features, EVE will still be very Anti-newbie. ------------------------------------- Interm-CEO for EVE Marshals http://www.EVEMarshals.com
Molly	Posted - 2003.08.27 06:11:00 - [20] Sorry, but every experienced player is able to bash a newbie.
Ruulex DeMors	Posted - 2003.08.27 06:18:00 - [21] Quote: Sorry, but every experienced player is able to bash a newbie. I agree. But that's not what I'm getting at. Screwball is using a tactic (underhanded but valid) to entice newbies to attack him. Then he takes their cargo. There is zero risk for him. Newbies should be aware from the tutorial stage that Concord will fry your ass if you fire on anyone above -5 sec rating, unless you fire in self defense (which sometimes gets you fried anyway). Oh and on the indicator window, I forgot to mention that some of us are slightly color-blind. I have difficulty telling the differnce in slight shade changes. The only reason I know it is a threat and not a lock is because the threat pops up right when I exit warp. The lock takes 10 secs after I exit warp. ------------------------------------- Interm-CEO for EVE Marshals http://www.EVEMarshals.com
Othnark	Posted - 2003.08.27 06:24:00 - [22] I think we have to go with the famous old saying here. Ignorance is no excuse from the law. As to Joshua's question.... everything in this game is an exploit. To exploit just means to take advantage of something. What we are prohibited from doing is exploiting game mechanics or a bug. What the player your described and many others like him is doing is exploiting people's ignorance. There is no difference between this and someone who convinces another player to sell him ISO at 24Isk. Sure the stakes are way higher, but tough. Ive been told many times from petition replies that it was "part of gameplay" to figure out how faction affects work. Security status losses are not defined anywhere and arent even working correctly. What do I do? I deal with it and move on. But because noobs are losing expensive items because they cant take 5 minutes to experiment in a noob ship before putting a month long investment at risk, we all have to hear people going around yelling exploit? Come on. Here we have something well defined and well known fact. Hell, you get a warning about firing on someone. If you choose to disregard it without knowing what you are doing, you deserve the results. -Othnark
Molly	Posted - 2003.08.27 06:27:00 - [23] Yup, underhanded. That's fine. -5.0 should be mentioned too, but then again the whole security rating stuff needs to be explained by a CONCORD agent or someone at the begining of a character creation for all character types, pirates and people fighting them.
Jolo	Posted - 2003.08.27 06:34:00 - [24] someone mentioned making an updated PDF manual about the game availible. If i had bought the game today, i would ****ed to find no ark or spod! heheh plus there's no explanation of the security system easily accessble. the other prolbem is a lot of people don't even use this web site, so how are they supposed to search the forums or read the other crap. ---------------------------------------
Ruulex DeMors	Posted - 2003.08.27 06:34:00 - [25] Othnark, I shut that warning off when it poped up against the training drone. So, we should just deal with it? Should we just deal with the Sensor Boosters CTD'ing us also? Or heck don't forget the Cap Neutralizer CTD'ing us also, I guess I should just live with it right? Like I have been for the past 6 wks. This is an easy fix that wouldn't take much time to put into game. It wouldn't take much time away from them fixing the issues that keep me from using very helpful modules in combat. ------------------------------------- Interm-CEO for EVE Marshals http://www.EVEMarshals.com
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.08.27 07:24:00 - [26] Molly, I think if you re-read my 2nd post in this topic you would see I agreed that ShockAndAwe was not an exploiter. He does, however, exploit the confusion regarding rules of engagement. As someone kindly pointed out, exploit and exploit have two different meanings when it comes to MMPROG's - I meant he was simply taking advantage of players' ignorance NOT the game mechanics. I didn't really want to get into the whole "exploit" thing anyway. My point was that new rules should be made more widely available than in some hard-to-navigate part of the website. As usual Molly, you've once again used a topic to make as many references to "carebear" as possible. You've become a parody of yourself. Grow up. Thanks to everyone who bothered to post constructively and without flame. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.08.27 07:24:00 - [27] Quote: Oh yeah and Josh, what sort of civil servant are you that can play Eve for 15 hours on a weekday. You aren't a spook are you? I have 2 weeks off Gotta love flexi-time. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.08.27 07:57:00 - [28] Edited by: j0sephine on 27/08/2003 08:20:00 "My point was that new rules should be made more widely available than in some hard-to-navigate part of the website." ... There's that nice 'Help' button on the main toolbar in game; it opens the requester and lets you easily search either the FAQ/Support or the Oracle thing. I agree the info could be provided in more direct manner (part of the tutorial while fighting the combat drone maybe?) but it's not that inaccessible, either... ^^;
Serge	Posted - 2003.08.27 08:05:00 - [29] I totally agree, Josh! A really severe issue such as the security rating / bounty and status with Concord MUST needs be adressed via tutorial or similar means! Better tell them ppl twice be4 they fall victim to this underhand tactic. There are similar points to the above stated - gangs: I still miss an explanation of gang-functionality .. lost a cruiser to this issue 1,5 month ago and still no info about gang-functionality! *********************************************** ... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha
Avon	Posted - 2003.08.27 08:47:00 - [30] Two words: Patch Notes. It is all in there. Anyone who patches software without reading the notes deserves to get blown into itty bits. Sutpid people deserve to die, they only weaken their races gene pool. 'Gene police, you (points) get out of the pool!' I know they can't help being dumb or ignorant, it isn't their fault that out of 100 million sperm a defective one was the fastest. Help channel: OMFG TEH GAME SUX I R DED - EXPLOITERS SUX. Really? Would you like to explain that in English without the caps? I r teh shoot some1 at a gate and teh guns blew me to bits. Hmmm, are you familiar with the security system? no - no1 told me nefing about it Well, do you read the patch notes each time you update the game? You really should do this to keep yourself informed of any game changes which may affect you. STFU u h0m0 f4gz n00b! Reading is 4 dumb ppl! Oh. Nothing to see here, move along please. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.

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