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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 35 post(s) |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.10.18 08:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Money Makin Mitch wrote:Ship Toaster wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6369&find=unread
17. Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a character.
The DNSBlack thing has never been allowed. he didn't lotto the character. he lotto'ed a chance to bid on the character. Going by dnsblack's character selling process, you have to enter the lottery to be able to buy the character. It is an intrinsic part of the process of buying the character. You can argue all you want about semantics, but if CCP decide that the quoted part of the ToS apply to the whole process and not just the final exchange step, expect bio massed characters and many many tears. If this happens, anyone who gets upset about it should realise it's not a court of law but a court of CCP and their mighty swinging todger of doom. |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.10.18 09:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Handsome Feller wrote: Going by dnsblack's character selling process, you have to enter the lottery to be able to buy the character. It is an intrinsic part of the process of buying the character. You can argue all you want about semantics, but if CCP decide that the quoted part of the ToS apply to the whole process and not just the final exchange step, expect bio massed characters and many many tears. If this happens, anyone who gets upset about it should realise it's not a court of law but a court of CCP and their mighty swinging todger of doom.
Should that happen I think people would be rightfully pissed. You can do that with isk/ships/plex/items/skillbooks but not characters. It would not just look like but be CCP playing favorites again. Except this time it would be them determining who is allowed to run a lottery.
Or alternatively you could view it as being a very sensible measure to have in place because sale & transfer of characters is a considerably different beast when compared to say, a Damage Control II (soundwave might like that reference). As far as I know, the "no lottery" rule for selling characters has been around for many years. Getting upset about it now is somewhat silly. Accounts / characters must surely have as much protection as possible.
It's a shame that dnsblack didn't make his point by selling say, an iScorp (lovely irony!) using this method as things would get really interesting. As it is, CCP could, if they so choose to, easily justify a ban hammer and bio mass due to it being a character sale. However, now that players are selling limited edition ships via the lottery / RL money method, I'm looking forward to see what ccp shall do. |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2013.10.18 10:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
DarkDecay wrote:
Yo Handsome, there was no paid lottery for a character at any stage. So no buying of a character was ever part of this process.
The lottery was a freebie for those who buy gtc, an incentive to buy from DNS; the cash for GTC is separate from the lottery. The cash for gtc is legal. The offering of freebies via made up currency to boost your sales is legal. Link these two together and you have a winner.
Yo decaying dude, *fistbumps* etc. I dig what some people is on about innit. But character exchange + lottery ain't good bruv.
Quote:you have to enter the lottery to be able to buy the character. It is an intrinsic part of the process of buying the character. You can argue all you want about semantics, but if CCP decide that the quoted part of the ToS apply to the whole process and not just the final exchange step, expect bio massed characters and many many tears.
If it aint in yo head yet, money must've been traded b4 character exchange. Process, wonga, character, sale, semantics n all that innit. u geddit yo decaying dude?
DarkDecay wrote:This is the legal sleight of hand that makes rmt into not-rmt.
*sucks teef*
Quote:anyone who gets upset about it should realise it's not a court of law but a court of CCP and their mighty swinging todger of doom.
Quote:It's a shame that dnsblack didn't make his point by selling say, an iScorp (lovely irony!) using this method as things would get really interesting. As it is, CCP could, if they so choose to, easily justify a ban hammer and bio mass due to it being a character sale.
nuff reespeck o/ |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2013.10.18 10:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Handsome Feller wrote:
Yo decaying dude, *fistbumps* etc. I dig what some people is on about innit. But character exchange + lottery ain't good bruv.
If it aint in yo head yet, money must've been traded b4 character exchange. Process, wonga, character n all that innit. u geddit yo decaying dude?
nuff reespeck o/
/ flat documentary style speech "This is of course how most of the world views the English language skills of most people educated in the United States of America."
Just trying the "fitting in with the crowd to help them understand what I'm saying" method of communication. Sometimes one has to stoop to levels of the recipient for the message to be heard.
Edit: That wasn't from the USA btw. Try it it a Sarf Larndern accent. |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2013.10.18 10:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
DarkDecay, I know, however there are additional rules regarding Character sale when compared to any other type. That's my point and if CCP so chooses, they could use those additional rules to justify wielding their mighty pork sword. hence why I said it's a shame that dns didn't do it with an iScorp and not a character. |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2013.10.18 11:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
DarkDecay wrote:
Got the accent btw :P
The character was never sold but only transferred. That is the sad point here. By breaking the rmt process up into smaller steps, that are all seen by CCP as legal, it appears you can bypass all the rules. This is not good and needs stomped on immediately.
Agreed, but I'll wait and see what CCP choose to do against dnsblack for the character "exchange" (sale). I'd personally be surprised if they'll let it slide as they are usually red hot on keeping character sales legit. They have a clause in the ToS aimed directly at character sales with which they could justify harsh action. In game items, plex, etc. though... that's going to be interesting and could well force a change in their outlook as that specific character clause doesn't apply to them. |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2013.10.18 14:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
DNSBLACK wrote:Handsome Feller wrote:DarkDecay, I know, however there are additional rules regarding Character sale when compared to any other type. That's my point and if CCP so chooses, they could use those additional rules to justify wielding their mighty pork sword. hence why I said it's a shame that dns didn't do it with an iScorp and not a character as that pitches players into the potential "legal" rmt. Do me a favor and show me the evidence. Build your case against me I would love to hear it.
OK, first do me a favour and read this to understand where I'm coming from. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3752651#post3752651
I can't be arsed to spend more than 5 minutes on this, so here goes.
CCP Rules from https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6369&find=unread
17. Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a character.
Some preemptions:
Please don't argue semantics. It's up to CCP to decide what they mean by their rules. Example: Raffle is probably encompassed under "lottery style" etc. etc. Semantics Shemantics. It's CCP's rules.
Evidence from your post here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3750771#post3750771 with some iterations by me.
2. Thru this web site and forum post I had interested people inquire about my raffle. You're holding a lottery. You MUST enter the lottery in order to "win" the character.
3. Player X purchased a 1 /60 day GTC off of DNS Corp for $2500.00 dollars. I used Pay Pal proxy service for all money exchange. Cost of GTC was 30.00 dollars. For buying my GTC I gave him $2470 DNS Credits. You receive a Real Money Transfer. The buyer receives, among other things, lottery tickets. Real money HAS to be paid in order to receive lottery ticket.
... stuff ... (loved point 6 btw)
11. I then pick the winning ticket live on Twitch TV and player X won. You pick the winning ticket from your lottery style thingamy-.
... stuff ...
14. I will be transferring the character IE DNSBlack to his new owner over the next 3 days. The person who purchased the winning ticket (among other things) from you gets the character.
A succinct "black box" summary of your process:
Input = Real Money Transfer to you. Process = A lottery style game for those who paid you money. No money, no lottery ticket. Output = Transfer of character to Person who paid real life money for the winning lottery ticket (+ other things).
Again, CCP's rules:
Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a character.
What you did was neither an auction or a buyout but exceptionally close to being "lottery style". That's why here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3752755#post3752755 I said:
Quote:It's a shame that dnsblack didn't make his point by selling say, an iScorp (lovely irony!) using this method as things would get really interesting. As it is, CCP could, if they so choose to, easily justify a ban hammer and bio mass due to it being a character sale.
AFAIK, CCP don't have the lottery rule for other stuff, just characters.
Good luck and if CCP manage to make their T's & C's bullet proof because of this, I'll buy you a pint or 2. Think I'm safe there! |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2013.10.18 15:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
raven666wings wrote:Money Makin Mitch wrote:he didn't lotto the character. he lotto'ed a chance to bid on the character. You're missing the point. Just like MMMitch told you before, he didn't directly raffle the character, he raffled a chance to get a Buyout on it. So he didn't sell it using a Lottery, he still sold it using an Auction and Buyout in the Character Bazaar forum section, just like the normal procedure endorsed by CCP for character exchange. The object of the raffle being a character buyout, plexes, ships or isk doesn't matter according to Somer Blink, Eve-Games.net and other unsanctioned in-game item raffling conducts, as long as they're all tranferred by the CCP designated trading mechanisms.
You're hiding behind details. Details which CCP are more than free to ignore when the inputs and outputs boils down to this:
- Buy Lottery Tickets
- Receive chance of getting a character
Add as many steps & details in between as you like, but it breaks down the same. Must buy lottery ticket to get character.
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Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2013.10.18 15:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
raven666wings wrote:Handsome Feller wrote:You're hiding behind details. Details which CCP are more than free to ignore when the inputs and outputs boils down to this:
- Buy Lottery Tickets
- Receive chance of getting a character
Add as many steps & details in between as you like, but it breaks down the same. Must buy lottery ticket to get character. You're still missing the point. They aren't "hiding behind details". They are using the same procedure used by Somer Blink and others that has not only been unsanctioned, but also supported and advertised by CCP.
No I'm not missing the point. I understand that. You are missing what I have been pointing out all along. Character transfers / sales have different rules to ships etc.
Show me where Somer Blink has held a lottery for a character.
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Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2013.10.18 15:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Handsome Feller wrote:You're hiding behind details. Details which CCP are more than free to ignore when the inputs and outputs boils down to this:
- Buy Lottery Tickets
- Receive chance of getting a character
Add as many steps & details in between as you like, but it breaks down the same. Must buy lottery ticket to get character. You know that looks a lot like
- Buy GTC get bonus credit
- Buy Lottery Tickets
- Transfer credit into isk
But that can't be right as that would be RMT and that is expressly forbidden under the EULA
17. Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a character.
Not sure I can do any more than that. |
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Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2013.10.18 15:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
raven666wings wrote:Handsome Feller wrote: No I'm not missing the point. I understand that. You are missing what I have been pointing out all along. Character transfers / sales have different rules to ships etc.
Show me where Somer Blink has held a lottery for a character.
Yes, once again you are still missing the point, and I advise you to read the full thread before making such comments. They do indeed have different rules - and that difference is in the means of selling and transfer (in-game vs character bazaar forum section) - which doesn't mean DNSBlack didn't follow them. He sold the character according to the CCP designated means for character sales/transfers. Somer Blink might indeed have not raffled buyouts for character sales but they could do it, as long as they use the same CCP designated character bazaar forum section to transfer them.
You're going round in circles. No point continuing. It's summarised thusly:
I suggest CCP can say that holding lottery that you must enter in order to be able to buy a character is flouting the no "lottery style" rule when buying characters.
You say, He's doing exactly the same as Somer (which he isn't because *character*) or it doesn't matter because there are additional steps between lottery and character buying.
The End. |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2013.10.18 15:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Handsome Feller wrote:17. Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a character.Not sure I can do any more than that. Maybe list the part in the EULA where it states that rather than in the rules for a forum would be a good start.
But you'll still equate the rules around / Ts&Cs around ship lotteries to the rules for selling a character because that's what you've done thus far. I can't help you anymore until you realize that CCP treat these things differently. |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2013.10.23 14:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Handsome Feller wrote:... however there are additional rules regarding Character sale when compared to any other type. That's my point and if CCP so chooses, they could use those additional rules
raven666wings wrote:You're missing the point
Handsome Feller wrote:You're hiding behind details. Details which CCP are more than free to ignore when the inputs and outputs boils down to this:
Buy Lottery Tickets Receive chance of getting a character
Add as many steps & details in between as you like, but it breaks down the same. Must buy lottery ticket to get character.
raven666wings wrote:You're still missing the point. They aren't "hiding behind details". They are using the same procedure used by Somer Blink and others that has not only been unsanctioned, but also supported and advertised by CCP.
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Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2013.10.23 14:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Handsome Feller wrote:No I'm not missing the point. I understand that. You are missing what I have been pointing out all along. Character transfers / sales have different rules to ships etc.
raven666wings wrote:Yes, once again you are still missing the point
Handsome Feller wrote:You're going round in circles. No point continuing.
raven666wings wrote:Lol you definitely should have read the thread before fallin here in a parachute ... PS - You should consider writing english in further posts.
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Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2013.10.23 14:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Handsome Feller wrote:As it is, CCP could, if they so choose to, easily justify a ban hammer ... due to it being a character sale.
CCP Falcon wrote:Lotteries for character sales are not permitted under the Character Bazaar Rules.
As such, this thread is locked.
Hey raven666wings, I knew I wasn't exactly up against any sort of mental might, but I just thought I'd point out how I was right and you were so very wrong. Love how you moaned on about me not getting the point when the point I was making turned out to be superbly accurate and your point wholly inaccurate. I guess life must be tough for you. Oh and just one more thing...
raven666wings wrote:I hope you didn't get brain damage of some sort. |
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2013.10.23 16:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
raven666wings wrote:Handsome Feller wrote:Hey raven666wings, I knew I wasn't exactly up against any sort of mental might, but I just thought I'd point out how I was right and you were so very wrong. Love how you moaned on about me not getting the point when the point I was making turned out to be superbly accurate and your point wholly inaccurate. I guess life must be tough for you. Oh and just one more thing... Your recurrent use of formal fallacies doesn't seem voluntary, what you're presenting really seems incapacity of racional thought (hence the brain damage analogy). Having a CCP representative lock that thread doesn't mean you were right. It means he acted on arbitrary judgement and/or misinterpreted the situation like you did.
You can try to change history, but you'll fail. Unless you manage to hack these forums I guess. Though CCP probably have backups. Poor you.
I do wonder why you are pretending I was not correct. Do you always have this many issues with reality?
Me: I think CCP could invoke the lottery rule for character sales here. Shame dnsblack didn't do this with an iScorp. You: No you're missing the point. You are wrong. You're missing the point. You're missing the point. You're wrong. CCP: We are invoking the lottery rule for character sales and putting an end to this sale.
Even with me being proven correct, you're still pretending that's not how it is. Delusional isn't a sufficient word here. I'll not bother to reply anymore as at best, you're being thoroughly dishonest and at worst, you need to seek professional help to get you back in touch with reality. I hope you get better soon. |
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