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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 35 post(s) |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
4241
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Recently CCP rewarded the staff members of SOMER Blink, the highly popular micro lottery website, with Ishukone Watch Scorpions (IWS) as a thank-you for their contributions to EVE. There was also the matter of a recent special lottery event at SOMER Blink that CCP supported by contributing rare ships as prizes. This has raised concern in the community, with some calling favoritism and others airing opposition to CCP spawning items into the single-shard sandbox we all love, whether as rewards to third-party contributors, or prizes for them to hand out.
So letGÇÖs go through what happened, why it happened, what else has happened, and then letGÇÖs have a discussion on what all of us want to happen in the future.
First, what is the Ishukone Watch Scorpion?
ItGÇÖs a re-skinned version of the Scorpion-class battleship, with the old Scorpion slot layout and slightly worse stats than the current Scorpion when it comes to functionality. It refines to 1 piece of Tritanium and as such is designed specifically to have no actual base value in the gameGÇÖs economy, similar to the rookie frigates handed out for free when you suffer a ship loss. The IWS was originally created as a vanity item to be sold in the NeX store for Aurum, but once that plan was cancelled, the Community Team secured it as a promotional item to be given out for various efforts or events.
In its very essence, the IWS is a skin with its own GÇ£show infoGÇ¥ description. But while thatGÇÖs certainly an important thing to realize, we of course recognize that rare items you can sell on TQ will be coveted and will have some value through the law of supply and demand despite a lack of base value or actual functionality.
How many exist and who have you given them to?
A total of 132 exist on TQ today, all handed out by CCP as that is the only way for them to come into existence. The first one went to the winner of the 2012 Fanfest Poker Tournament. Subsequent ones have been given to participants of various PVP tournaments, the 2013 Poker Tournament, the winner of the BIG Lottery 10th anniversary event, Alliance Tournament player commentators, Alliance Tournament volunteers, the staff of the Syndicate Competitive League (SCL) and most recently the staff of SOMER blink. Giving these particular ships out as rewards for services rendered is a relatively new initiative and we intended to gift them to more fansites and contributors; however, those plans are currently on hold.
Why hasnGÇÖt my favorite fansite or community enterprise received something nice too?
ThereGÇÖs no single answer to that question. Sometimes it has to do with the timing of specific events related to that fansite or enterprise, sometimes your favorite is next in line or theyGÇÖve simply gotten something different, such as free accounts, trips and/or tickets to Fanfest, CollectorGÇÖs editions, a couple of time codes, devs flown to their events, T-shirts, posters, resin ship models etc. etc.
Something to keep in mind is that the Community Team hasnGÇÖt always had the ability to give prizes or thank-you rewards to major long standing fansite operators like we would have wanted, but times change and we hope that those long-time contributors at least appreciate that we are trying to do better in that regard, specific rewards, quantities, and situations aside.
How do these recent events compare with previous ones?
Regarding the handing out of prizes for third-party events, weGÇÖve always seen value in providing reasonable prizes to boost interest in events run by enthusiastic and capable players. ThereGÇÖs value in it for us as a company and for you as a community. What constitutes GÇ£reasonableGÇ¥ is always a judgment call that has to do with the history we have with the operator, the scope of the event, and the attention and participation the event can draw. Tl;dr, big event = bigger prizes. Not every event gets the same but we of course want to avoid any feelings of unfairness or resentment and we should be able to avoid that with increased transparency and by working with you guys and the CSM (more on that in the last section of this post). Now on to the personal reward The IWS is a cool thing to have and thatGÇÖs why we use it as a reward, not because it carries X ISK value. The price people negotiate is wholly decided between individuals and is hard for us to predict with any precision.
In the past we have given out time codes and PLEX both as prizes and rewards for going the extra mile for the community. These have been given to just about every major fansite at some point and PLEX have a much more predictable value over time than skinned ships.
The rewards for the SOMER Blink staff was around three times larger than the one to the SCL staff but thatGÇÖs because they have three times the staff. In both cases everyone got one each.
When we gave out thousands of pirate-skinned rookie frigates to players at PAX East and Gamescom, they initially sold for 1 billion ISK in-game without causing stir. Obviously those were less rare from the get-go and were handed out fairly randomly in the familiar environment of GÇ£go to game show GÇô get swagGÇ¥.
So the concerns raised seem to revolve around quantity, the selection process of the recipients, and the level of transparency. Which leads me to the next question.
Was CCP being secretive about this?
We really werenGÇÖt. In his leaked mail, SOMER asks his staff to keep this reward on the down-low but that requirement didnGÇÖt come from us at all and is completely their prerogative. When we give rewards or prizes, we often donGÇÖt announce it specifically but we donGÇÖt ask for secrecy either nor do we expect it at all.
ItGÇÖs worth noting that when the SCL staff got their IWSs there was public chatter about it, it just didnGÇÖt get a lot of attention. It wasnGÇÖt until articles appeared about the reward to the SOMER Blink staff which also hinted at some secrecy that concerns were raised.
So, are you totally happy with this whole thing?
No weGÇÖre not. While we want to keep rewarding and encouraging projects that add value and are popular with our community, we absolutely agree that it has to happen in a way that the community is on board with, whether that means we have to make big changes or small tweaks.
We recognize that gifting rare in-game items of potential ISK value proactively to select third-parties, whether as prizes for them to hand out or as a personal thank-you, can have implications no matter how well-meaning you are. We realize that for example in the IWS reward situation, a line was crossed in many peopleGÇÖs minds despite there being certain similarities with previous gifting events. Where the li... CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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Azami Nevinyrall
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
1299
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
First! Support my (possibly dumb) Ideas!! Worm Rebalance!!! |
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CCP Manifest
C C P C C P Alliance
859
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thanks to the CSM for their help thusfar and players who have already given their feedback.
======== o7 CCP Manifest | Public Relations and Social Media | @ccp_manifest |
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
624
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Thanks for the statement. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
CorryBasler
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
34
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
first page comment! |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5214
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'd like a little more information on the SOMER lottery issue specifically as that was the really immense giveaway here and it's not really well addressed. Specifically, why an in-game business was given such immense prizes as "a fansite" that wound up making them almost certainly literally trillions of isk. It's not really addressed at all in your post: no indication of why SOMER, no indication of what process went on here and why the CSM was never consulted, no indication of what other "fansites" have gotten these sort of things.
It's not just that SOMER got the lottery gifts. It's that they were absolutely stupendously massive. There's also the seperate problem of Navigator officially declaring them Not A Scam.
The IWS issue would not have been nearly as big an issue without that: it's that both happened, and that the lottery gift to SOMER was already absurdly out of line. The IWS issue exacerbated the lottery issue, it wasn't the main problem. |
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
78
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jealous people killing a reward that CCP gives out to people who support the community. As far as the first somer lottery was concerned this was a mistake and CCP actually fixed it.
Also thanks Guard! Shadoo > whoever was the first nyx on grid Shadoo > THANK GOD YOU ARE A SMART MAN and fitted the best tank in PL Shadoo > (ie. cyno) |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1261
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ideally sponsorship will come in the form of items that are not insanely valuable (magnates etc) and do not impact the sandbox in any meaningful way. ISK is highly meaningful.
Sponsorship should also be limited to non-profits like Chribba's EVE Files, or The angel project, or possibly EVE UNI. Things that enrich the community and are not simply large scale businesses that send a lot of time card revenue CCP's way. Out of game items are much preferable to ingame ones. T-Shirts, or Rifter Hubs, or other various marketing swag. It would be preferable if game-time was given in such a way it cannot be easily monetized, perhaps game-time directly applied to an account.
These guidelines may not always be preferable and some exceptions may occur but those should be screened through the CSM. Everything should strive to keep the sandbox as pure as possible. Vanity items would be perfect for this. I can see CCP giving out 1000 free ship skins sometime down the road when you introduce that feature. Things that are nice to receive as a player but have no impact on the sandbox.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Seras VictoriaX
Relentless Grind
22
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Out of game rewards only please.
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Kate stark
569
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
it doesn't matter if you didn't announce it or didn't ask for secrecy. by not announcing it, you simply weren't being transparent. i don't think transparency is a big ask. i mean a quick "oh and for their awesome initiative, the guys at somer have been given IWS" at the bottom of their spotlight article would have taken seconds to type and avoided most of the issue.
also, yes, rewards for these kinds of things should be kept to non-transferable and/or out of game stuff. when you essentially just dump a few billion isk in to a player's hangar... do i really need to explain why just handing players a fist full of isk is wrong?
nobody is saying that they don't want you to reward people in the community who add something to the experience of eve, we're just asking you to be transparent about it, and not do it in such a way that it gives some one an advantage over some one else no matter how small or unintended.
even better, would be a set of written guidelines you can refer to and say "well, we did it all legitimately on our side." because had there been an devblog prior to the spotlight articles saying "we're going to start actively rewarding people in the community that do great stuff with some cool scorpions" then none of this would be a surprise, none of it would have been a secret, and the only issue we would have had would have been "uh guys, might want to rethink the reward if you're essentially handing out fist fulls of isk as "rewards"" Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this. |
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iskflakes
701
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
When you reward somebody by giving them PLEX nobody else suffers any serious devaluation. When you give somebody an IWS all other IWS owners and collectors get completely screwed over because the price collapses.
Just give people PLEX in future, as much as you like, but no rare items ever. - |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
4249
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:I'd like a little more information on the SOMER lottery issue specifically as that was the really immense giveaway here and it's not really well addressed. Specifically, why an in-game business was given such immense prizes as "a fansite" that wound up making them almost certainly literally trillions of isk. It's not really addressed at all in your post: no indication of why SOMER, no indication of what process went on here and why the CSM was never consulted, no indication of what other "fansites" have gotten these sort of things.
It's not just that SOMER got the lottery gifts. It's that they were absolutely stupendously massive. There's also the seperate problem of Navigator officially declaring them Not A Scam.
The IWS issue would not have been nearly as big an issue without that: it's that both happened, and that the lottery gift to SOMER was already absurdly out of line. The IWS issue exacerbated the lottery issue, it wasn't the main problem.
I can probably shed a bit of light on that although Navigator touched on that in his announcement following what was going to be the Gold Magnate event.
Why SOMER? Well, they are really popular and they have supported a ton of events so we wanted to explore what we could do with them. Their influence in the community is significant for the same reason that they are space rich - because they're good at what they do.
In the statement we go into who else have gotten the ISWs and also what sort of giveways we usually extend to fansites.
As we said, we agree with you that we went too fast and that's why we need to re-think this whole thing. We need to keep the CSM more involved, their input is invaluable. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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gr ant
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
15
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
LOL goons bringing in alts to reiterate their posts.
this isn't really that big of a deal, CCP never promised they would not give anymore of these outs unlike other unique ships. lots of jelly folks |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
3794
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm still scratching my head about what these "great contributions" are exactly that SB made to EVE that CCP and others keep referring to.
Is out of game gambling for isk and in-game swag via a 3rd party for-profit entity considered creating content? The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
A Research Alt
Perkone Caldari State
128
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
This does not address at all the criteria CCP uses to determine "services rendered" and why Somer Blink got so much in the way of rewards while there are far more deserving entities for any particular criteria it would be reasonable for CCP to have used. |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
577
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
As a fan site owner I got goodies worth of about ~1B and felt honored. I sold the items and gave my corp mates some free ships, which leads to more PvP ingame.
It does not matter if it's a Video, a blogpost or a whole Tournament. Some people put so many hours into fan projects and they deserved at least something. It does not matter if it's ISK or just a thank you.
Bloggers already get their media account, how about something for those awesome video makers from /my eve/? German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
242
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote: Should we stick to out-of-game things only? Create non-transferrable in-game items as rewards? Give no personal rewards and only prizes? Only items below a certain expected ISK value? Always give out tons of stuff at once so early recipients canGÇÖt cash out? List all rewards publicly?
ThatGÇÖs it for now, let us know your thoughts.
Items such as the memorabilia things in the "time capsule", would reward people with a permanent reminder of their impact on the EVE world.
Those things like the "Piece of Steve", relating to the first Titan shot down, or the "Assassination Contract - Mirial", or the "Band of Brothers Director Key". Souvenir items that don't do anything much ingame, beside exist.
Those sorts of items would be perfectly fine, to reward people for contributing.
Or inspace monuments, such as was done in the past, e.g. the Jita Monument originally commemorated a competition between players, yes ?
Monuments and souvenir items, people would have far fewer issues with, than things that have a definable ISK value. |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
4249
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:When you reward somebody by giving them PLEX nobody else suffers any serious devaluation. When you give somebody an IWS all other IWS owners and collectors get completely screwed over because the price collapses.
Just give people PLEX in future, as much as you like, but no rare items ever.
That argument I would agree with in regards to certain rare items, but not the ISW as it was created for the express purpose of being a reward for all kinds of contributions and contests, making it inevitable that the price of the early ones will plummet. The problem more people would have with it is much rather that those who get it early gain more by selling it than those who get it late, which is a byproduct of slowly seeding rare items in this manner. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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I've got himtackled
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:ThatGÇÖs it for now, let us know your thoughts. Okay.
CCP Guard wrote:Should we stick to out-of-game things only? Yes. I don't care if Somer gets a dozen USB hub Rifters.
CCP Guard wrote:Create non-transferrable in-game items as rewards? No. Bound items are terrible and dumb.
CCP Guard wrote:Give no personal rewards and only prizes? In-game items yes. Out of game stuff no.
CCP Guard wrote:Only items below a certain expected ISK value? No, mostly because that doesn't work in Eve. |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
4250
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:Jealous people killing a reward that CCP gives out to people who support the community. As far as the first somer lottery was concerned this was a mistake and CCP actually fixed it.
Also thanks Guard!
Note that we haven't said that the ISW will never be given out again in any sort of giveaway. Just that we're pausing rewards of this nature until we are sure they make sense or have a framework ensuring they make sense :) CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
393
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think my biggest problem with the whole situation is that I feel CCP is awarding a straight up gambling enterprise simply because they help sell plexes.
When you give out upwards of 400+ billion ISK in rare ships to 'the house' who is already raking in ISK hand-over-fist it seems lame as hell. Not today spaghetti. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1422
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Seras VictoriaX wrote:Out of game rewards only please.
^^^ This. This is not a signature. |
Kate stark
571
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Posted - 2013.10.10 18:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I can probably shed a bit of light on that although Navigator touched on that in his announcement following what was going to be the Gold Magnate event.
Why SOMER? Well, they are really popular and they have supported a ton of events so we wanted to explore what we could do with them. Their influence in the community is significant for the same reason that they are space rich - because they're good at what they do.
In the statement we go into who else have gotten the ISWs and also what sort of giveways we usually extend to fansites.
As we said, we agree with you that we went too fast and that's why we need to re-think this whole thing. We need to keep the CSM more involved, their input is invaluable.
if they're good at what they do, why do they need to be given extra things to profit from?
It's not like you need blink in order to get gifts out to your average joe player. you've shown you can do that in many ways. for example the player count record thing when everyone emailed you a guess at the number. things dropped from wrecks in dev roams, etc.
also, this is really something some one else said and i'm just repeating, if you're giving things to blink and giving them cool ships to give away, why would any one play with one of blinks competitors when they've essentially been priced out of the market because you're handing blink prizes they can't compete with? (although i'm not sure that's a very compelling point, but i guess it's worth asking all the same)
due to the fact that it has been 2 acts of benevolence towards blink, and none to anyone doing similar things to blink it's very easy to interpret it as "favouritism" even if it isn't and it's just CCP exploring new avenues. Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this. |
Azami Nevinyrall
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
1299
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Posted - 2013.10.10 19:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
First!
-Edit-
I believe it's sad when CCP has to think before they reward.
There was over 100 ISW "spawned" before this whole fiasco started. Why wasn't this an issue then and why now? Not only that, but plans to release more?
As the players of this universe, we set the prices of everything contained within. Its annoying watching some peoples reactions on this matter.... "T20 2.0" or "CCP gave Trillions to SOMER."
It's NOT T20 2.0 because the ships are not game breaking. It's not trillions of ISK either, do the bloody math! The cheapest ISW I seen was 10 Bil, 10 x 30 = 300 Bil, not even halfway to Trillion!
The people who've invested a lot of ISK from buying them is obviously going to be at a greater loss, thus more upset. It's the same as any investment IRL, it has a chance to loose its value.
People should stop complaining about not receiving free shinys, Get off your lazy asses and earn it!
(This was a first post, until it was removed as I was writing my reply, not cool.) Support my (possibly dumb) Ideas!! Worm Rebalance!!! |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2073
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Posted - 2013.10.10 19:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ideally sponsorship will come in the form of items that are not insanely valuable (magnates etc) and do not impact the sandbox in any meaningful way. ISK is highly meaningful.
there is no difference between a painted magante and a painted scorpion. Both are useless but rare. The fact that the scorpion sells higher is because there are more people which want this particular useless but rare item.
CCP does not give out ISK. The item you get only allows you to transfer isk from people who collect useless but rare items to people who don't.
thats all. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
727
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Posted - 2013.10.10 19:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote: Why SOMER? Well, they are really popular and they have supported a ton of events so we wanted to explore what we could do with them. Their influence in the community is significant for the same reason that they are space rich - because they're good at what they do.
These guys are good at making ISK so we will give them an unrestricted working permit for a brand new gold mine only them will have access to. It's not like it gives an in-game advantage like a T2 BPO would tho since they have a website to handle the tapping instead of stations in game for production. |
Kate stark
571
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Posted - 2013.10.10 19:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:There was over 100 ISW "spawned" before this whole fiasco started. Why wasn't this an issue then and why now? Not only that, but plans to release more? because the ISW was the prize for the poker tournament, hence it was announced.
and the poker tournament was open to any one (i assume) and as such it was available to "everyone" and not just some one that CCP decided deserved it based on an unknown set of criteria. also, generally, the people in the poker tournament put some extra effort in (you know, turning up to the poker tournament, and winning it) vs somer doing nothing that isn't day-to-day business for them. Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1422
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Posted - 2013.10.10 19:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:As a fan site owner I got goodies worth of about ~1B and felt honored. I sold the items and gave my corp mates some free ships, which leads to more PvP ingame.
It does not matter if it's a Video, a blogpost or a whole Tournament. Some people put so many hours into fan projects and they deserved at least something. It does not matter if it's ISK or just a thank you.
Bloggers already get their media account, how about something for those awesome video makers from /my eve/?
This is not a signature. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
727
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Posted - 2013.10.10 19:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote: As the players of this universe, we set the prices of everything contained within. Its annoying watching some peoples reactions on this matter.... "T20 2.0" or "CCP gave Trillions to SOMER."
The close to a trillion accusation comes from the previous gift package, not the ISW. |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
4254
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Posted - 2013.10.10 19:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:As a fan site owner I got goodies worth of about ~1B and felt honored. I sold the items and gave my corp mates some free ships, which leads to more PvP ingame.
It does not matter if it's a Video, a blogpost or a whole Tournament. Some people put so many hours into fan projects and they deserved at least something. It does not matter if it's ISK or just a thank you.
Bloggers already get their media account, how about something for those awesome video makers from /my eve/?
The video makers from My EVE are awesome contributors and it would be cool to find a way to encourage and reward them more. We have done things like just send someone a T-shirt or a ship model for catching our attention in a big way but we should look at what we can do more when we design our framework for this. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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