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Gariuys	Posted - 2006.01.26 14:09:00 - [31] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Eyeshadow A complete and utter myth. Wreckings are still subject to the usual tracking/sig radius etc calculation. It still needs to be a hit in order for it to be a wrecking. a 25sig at 1000m/s transversal being shot at by a mega with 425s at 35km should be zero % chance of a hit, therefor a zero % chance of a wrecking Not a myth, just outdated info. It used to be 1/100 shots, regardless of wether they hit or not. Very very outdated. Got changed eons ago. ( still remember all the whining about it, lol ) ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Dahin	Posted - 2006.01.26 14:19:00 - [32] yes, the miss-miss-miss-wreck/kill has been fixed about 1.5yrs ago. It was back in the days when the tracking was applied heavily so bs guns couldn't easily hit the frigs. It was one of the popular subjects of those days, but that has been fixed. So it definitely isn't the wrecking issue. I can verify that at least pre-RMR there existed an exploit where you could do this. I have seen it happening, a very close friend accidentally did it against some rats (1-shot kill just about anything/any size). It essentially applied endless tracking/damage mods on your ship, depending on how long you spent on exploiting the bug. I can also verify that the devs were made aware of this bug since some smartass tried to kill us with such a ship. Ofc we realized it on the spot, petitioned and got ships back etc (the guy prolly got just a warning because he was still there the next day). Suffice to say that a solo raven with no damage mods and cruise missiles ganked 2-3 bs of a bs ganksquad within a few seconds and then merrily went away XD. (yes you can do silly things like this one) What I do not know, is that if this bug still exists to this day. It would definitely be able to explain any crazy stats on guns. On the other hand, this could be explain in other ways like endless target painters, overview bug or the one we can never ignore: you making a mistake and not realizing it. Anyway, I just thought I should add thisl lille piece of info.
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.26 14:23:00 - [33] I'm not sure I see the problem here, and I certainly don't see any mathematical impossibility. Now, this is with the lack of a calculator, so I am happy if someone comes along and points out my errors... At 35km, 1000m/s is about 0.028 rad/sec (1/35) Tracking of a 425 is something like 0.0092 IIRC So, 4 tracking computer II's (that is 30% to tracking each), and 2 tracking enhancer II's (9.5% each - I think), is going to get your tracking to about 0.28 (before stacking, but there are plenty of free slots for more enhancers) The turret sig radius is 400m, but I thought that modified damage, not the to-hit chance (could be wrong). Anyway, at 35km a tracked up mega can hit a claw, assuming my maths is about right. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.01.26 14:29:00 - [34] Edited by: Gariuys on 26/01/2006 14:30:21 Originally by: Avon I'm not sure I see the problem here, and I certainly don't see any mathematical impossibility. Now, this is with the lack of a calculator, so I am happy if someone comes along and points out my errors... At 35km, 1000m/s is about 0.028 rad/sec (1/35) Tracking of a 425 is something like 0.0092 IIRC So, 4 tracking computer II's (that is 30% to tracking each), and 2 tracking enhancer II's (9.5% each - I think), is going to get your tracking to about 0.28 (before stacking, but there are plenty of free slots for more enhancers) The turret sig radius is 400m, but I thought that modified damage, not the to-hit chance (could be wrong). Anyway, at 35km a tracked up mega can hit a claw, assuming my maths is about right. sig radius modifies the to hit chance NOT damage, you should know **** like this to be honest. 25m sig 400! sig resolution on the 425 means your tracking math is off by a factor of 8! Not too mention that tracking mods are stacking nerfed, so beyond 4, well they're pointless. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.26 14:33:00 - [35] Originally by: Gariuys sig radius modifies the to hit chance NOT damage, you should know **** like this to be honest. So you are saying that a 425 can never hit a 25m radius ship, ever? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.01.26 14:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Gariuys sig radius modifies the to hit chance NOT damage, you should know **** like this to be honest. So you are saying that a 425 can never hit a 25m radius ship, ever? Course it can, when it's got a transversal ( the rad/s thingie ) low enough. If you're off by a factor of 8, that means atleast 8 times lower transversal, or 8 times more range, or a combination of the two. And that's it from me, explained this stuff so bloody often I really can't be arsed anymore. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.26 14:44:00 - [37] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Avon Originally by: Gariuys sig radius modifies the to hit chance NOT damage, you should know **** like this to be honest. So you are saying that a 425 can never hit a 25m radius ship, ever? Course it can, when it's got a transversal ( the rad/s thingie ) low enough. If you're off by a factor of 8, that means atleast 8 times lower transversal, or 8 times more range, or a combination of the two. And that's it from me, explained this stuff so bloody often I really can't be arsed anymore. Yeah, I think you're right. The turret sig difference penalty is multiplied by the transverse/tracking penalty - or something :) The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.26 14:52:00 - [38] Hang on, this is still very doable... I forgot the mega's tracking bonus :/ So, at BS 5, 2 tracking computers, 2 target painter II's, and lows stacked with tracking enhancer II's should just do it. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:11:00 - [39] Edited by: Gariuys on 26/01/2006 15:13:58 Originally by: Avon Hang on, this is still very doable... I forgot the mega's tracking bonus :/ So, at BS 5, 2 tracking computers, 2 target painter II's, and lows stacked with tracking enhancer II's should just do it. 2 tracking computers, 2 target painters max skills, lvl 5 in all skills and 5 tracking enhancers ( forgettign stacking penalty atm ) gives you 10% hit chance at 35km. It goes over 50% hit chance at 70km. But I'm ignoring stacking penalty and rounding up in the extreme here. feck, did that wrong and calculated it for a 125m sig resolution turret. So it's 3% or so at 35km. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Ericka Jandreau	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Avon Hang on, this is still very doable... I forgot the mega's tracking bonus :/ So, at BS 5, 2 tracking computers, 2 target painter II's, and lows stacked with tracking enhancer II's should just do it. Meh. 425 II with maxed skills tracks at 0.009625 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 0.015039062 Thanks to the stacking penalty, having more than 4 modules that improve the tracking will have very little effect, but going for a fairly extreme case: 2 shadow serpentis tracking computers, 2 maxed skills target painter IIs, 6 domination tracking enhancers This would increase the tracking by 94% taking it to 0.029195332, and a 25m sig up by 82% to 45.6m. Plugging these numbers into the formula: Hit chance = 0.5 ^ ((((Transv / (Range * Tracking)) * (Sig_Res/Sig_Rad))^2) +(((max(0,Range-Optimal)) / Falloff)^2)) = 0.5 ^ (((1000 / (35,000 * 0.029195332)) * (400/45.6))^2) + 0) = 0.5 ^ ((0.9786 * 8.776)^2) = 0.5 ^ 73.8 = 6.26 x 10^-23 That's a pretty small chance tbh ;p.
Farjung	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:21:00 - [41] Heh, wrong account ;\.
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:22:00 - [42] Interesting, I made it more.. What sig radius did you have calculated for the ceptor with 2 painters on it? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:25:00 - [43] You know what, I'm actually going to have to find my mega and hop in and try this all out. I've been flying small ships far too long. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:37:00 - [44] Just messing about work, trying to not look like I'm not working too much, trying to give a proper calculation and failing pretty badly lol. And you make a point, been atleast 6 months since I've hooked up into a megathron, wonder if I still have any. Doubt it. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:40:00 - [45] I was under the impression that all this was done server side and thus couldn't really be hacked by the client...
Leno	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:43:00 - [46] you people think too hard with all this math and stuff, just play the game and fit your ship in a way that seems smart-ish. Has worked fine for me for almost 3 years. --------------- RIP - Smoske, My Friend
Gary Goat	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:53:00 - [47] Are you sure he was actually using a mega and not a vindicator? Vindicators get like 25% tracking per level or somthing like that so there is a high chance that a vindicator with 425's would have no problems hitting you. Please resize your sig. It is too large. (max size is 400x120 pixels/24000 bytes) -Falke
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Gary Goat Are you sure he was actually using a mega and not a vindicator? Vindicators get like 25% tracking per level or somthing like that so there is a high chance that a vindicator with 425's would have no problems hitting you. It gets the same bonus as a megathron, but just as a flat 25% bonus instead of a 5% per battleship skill lvl bonus. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:57:00 - [49] Originally by: Gary Goat Are you sure he was actually using a mega and not a vindicator? Vindicators get like 25% tracking per level or somthing like that so there is a high chance that a vindicator with 425's would have no problems hitting you. Megathron and Vindicator both get the same tracking bonus.
Helplessandlost	Posted - 2006.01.26 15:57:00 - [50] Edited by: Helplessandlost on 26/01/2006 15:57:08 Originally by: Leno you people think too hard with all this math and stuff, just play the game and fit your ship in a way that seems smart-ish. Has worked fine for me for almost 3 years. QFT And I've killed a Taranis before with 1400II's and EMP in a Pest with him at 14KM ish. So I know it can be done. Check us out
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.01.26 16:00:00 - [51] Originally by: Helplessandlost Edited by: Helplessandlost on 26/01/2006 15:57:08 Originally by: Leno you people think too hard with all this math and stuff, just play the game and fit your ship in a way that seems smart-ish. Has worked fine for me for almost 3 years. QFT And I've killed a Taranis before with 1400II's and EMP in a Pest with him at 14KM ish. So I know it can be done. When he had a transversal velocity of 1000m/s hell at 14km 50m/s would be enough. FFS stop replying if you can't be arsed to understand what the thread is about. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Farjung	Posted - 2006.01.26 16:05:00 - [52] Originally by: Helplessandlost Edited by: Helplessandlost on 26/01/2006 15:57:08 Originally by: Leno you people think too hard with all this math and stuff, just play the game and fit your ship in a way that seems smart-ish. Has worked fine for me for almost 3 years. QFT And I've killed a Taranis before with 1400II's and EMP in a Pest with him at 14KM ish. So I know it can be done. Sure it can be done, not a problem hitting an inty with an MWD going that comes at you in a straight line. This is a very particular case, an inty using an afterburner orbitting and maintaining transversal velocity of over 1000 m/s. A 425 II won't track that at 100km, never mind 35km.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.01.26 16:07:00 - [53] 1000 m/s at 35 km is 1000/35000 = 0.028 rad/s. Someone above have calculated that 425 on mega can track at about this rate. So tracking is not an issue here. Only reason 425 wouldn't hit is sig radius then. However, to hit small things with large weapons, people tend to use multiple target painters which are really effective... so you see, hitting small things isn't that hard at all... Didn't try it with 425mm but using 2 of best named TPs and the web, I didn't have any problems killing npc frigs with heavy drones, which are supposed to be anti-battleship weapon.
Oriana Fallaci	Posted - 2006.01.26 16:14:00 - [54] I remember that something similar was already discussed regarding dreadnought's xtra large guns hitting cruisers. Wasnt there something pointing at a bug that would for a very short time consider an even quickly moving target as stationary? Maybe in the transition of two afterburner boosts or sthg like that. I cant find the post right now, maybe someone else can remember the conclusions there.
Farjung	Posted - 2006.01.26 16:21:00 - [55] Edited by: Farjung on 26/01/2006 16:22:24 Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe 1000 m/s at 35 km is 1000/35000 = 0.028 rad/s. Someone above have calculated that 425 on mega can track at about this rate. So tracking is not an issue here. Only reason 425 wouldn't hit is sig radius then. However, to hit small things with large weapons, people tend to use multiple target painters which are really effective... so you see, hitting small things isn't that hard at all... Didn't try it with 425mm but using 2 of best named TPs and the web, I didn't have any problems killing npc frigs with heavy drones, which are supposed to be anti-battleship weapon. Maybe my wording was confusing, I equate sig radius and tracking to be two aspects of the same thing (because they are). Either way, read my previous 3 posts, I'm well aware of the effect of sig radius on chance to hit. An interceptor with two maxed skill target painter IIs activated on it will have a signature radius of 45.6m At 100km the 425mm railgun II I described above (with the faction tracking computers and enhancers) will have a chance to hit an interceptor that has a transversal velocity of 1,000m/s and a sig radius of 45.6m of 0.196%. So on average, less than one in five hundred shots will hit. And your comparison with npc frigates is completely meaningless. a) they use MWD and get a sig boost as a result and b) they don't attempt to maintain high transversal.
Helplessandlost	Posted - 2006.01.26 16:22:00 - [56] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Helplessandlost Edited by: Helplessandlost on 26/01/2006 15:57:08 Originally by: Leno you people think too hard with all this math and stuff, just play the game and fit your ship in a way that seems smart-ish. Has worked fine for me for almost 3 years. QFT And I've killed a Taranis before with 1400II's and EMP in a Pest with him at 14KM ish. So I know it can be done. When he had a transversal velocity of 1000m/s hell at 14km 50m/s would be enough. FFS stop replying if you can't be arsed to understand what the thread is about. I've read the whole thread, that was my first reply and I was mostly pointing out that this is a game and we should enjoy it as I quoted Leno. Actually this makes my second reply "Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive!" "Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive!" Check us out
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.01.26 16:43:00 - [57] Originally by: Farjung At 100km the 425mm railgun II I described above (with the faction tracking computers and enhancers) will have a chance to hit an interceptor that has a transversal velocity of 1,000m/s and a sig radius of 45.6m of 0.196%. So on average, less than one in five hundred shots will hit. So what do we have? Theory contradicts with practice. Conclusion: formulas you use are wrong. And no, Player Guide is not a 100% correct and up-to-date source for the internal game mechanics information.
Delta3000	Posted - 2006.01.26 17:04:00 - [58] Edited by: Delta3000 on 26/01/2006 17:04:42 Easy solution for all your mathematical inaccuracies: 1) Go here. 2) Go to page 5. 3) Plug in your values for the 2 ships. Even when the tracking is set to 0.028 the chance still reads zero.
Farjung	Posted - 2006.01.26 17:11:00 - [59] Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe Originally by: Farjung At 100km the 425mm railgun II I described above (with the faction tracking computers and enhancers) will have a chance to hit an interceptor that has a transversal velocity of 1,000m/s and a sig radius of 45.6m of 0.196%. So on average, less than one in five hundred shots will hit. So what do we have? Theory contradicts with practice. Conclusion: formulas you use are wrong. And no, Player Guide is not a 100% correct and up-to-date source for the internal game mechanics information. Until you provide a log of you shooting at a ship with a sig less than 50m that is maintaining a transversal of 1,000m/s at a range of 100km and getting hit regularly by a battleship gun, I haven't seen your "practice". Here's a sample of the log I just took in those conditions. As my alt can't fly ceptors I put her in a vigil and left out the target painting, meaning her signature radius was 44m. Attacker: Megathron pilot with battleship 5 and motion prediction 5, using 425mm railgun II with iridium, 2 tracking computer IIs, 7 tracking enhancer IIs Tracking: 0.02705 rad/s Optimal: 127 km Signature resolution of gun: 400m Target: Vigil pilot with a sig radius of 44m, orbitting at a range of 100 km maintaining a transversal velocity of 1,000m thanks to an afterburner. Chance to hit as predicted by the "incorrect" formula: 0.0398% Quote: [ 2006.01.26 16:59:15 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:16 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:18 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:21 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:21 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II glances off Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[, causing no real damage. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II glances off Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[, causing no real damage. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:25 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:27 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:28 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:30 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:32 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II barely misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:34 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:35 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II glances off Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[, causing no real damage. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:37 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:39 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:41 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II glances off Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[, causing no real damage. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:42 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II misses Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[ completely. [ 2006.01.26 16:59:44 ] (combat) Your 425mm Railgun II glances off Ericka Jandreau [TINSA]'Ericka Jandreau's Vigil'(Vigil)[, causing no real damage. It goes on like that for 5 minutes. Theory contradicts with practice?
Niki Silver	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:52:00 - [60] Originally by: Gonada maybe, instead of instantly pointing the finger accusing someone of hacking, you should stfu and look at what he could have been using. named target painters? were you using a mwd? did he have tracking mods? maybe he has maxed tracking skills? Reading the OP in any topic is generally a good idea if you wish to participate in forum discussions. On these forums or on any other. Ethereal Imperium [E-IMP] is recruiting! Please visit our webpage for more information.

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