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How to get away with anything?

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Valerian Eldiart University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.10.11 08:41:00 - [1] - Quote Admit it. There are people in the gutters of the Crystal Boulevard. People who are not so well off, who are not above begging and thievery. They may have once made a wrong decision or two at some point in their lives, or maybe they were born under those conditions. Whatever the case, today their chances of returning to a life of regularity, and all the comforts that come with it are as high as winning a Golden Magnate in a lottery. I am not suggesting that if they come to take your jewelry, credit chips or the designer jacket, you should not act in self-defense. Protecting your belongings would be the only rational thing for anyone to do. But to slaughter these poor people like they were animals, with no regard to the humanity that still lies within their rugged and weary mortal shells, that is an act of unashamed class contempt. Isn't it convenient to escape the consequences by claiming that the men who were murdered were somehow despicable, filthy and mentally inferior, like racists? Definitely not one of us, gallant, righteous and prosperous. Not a very new or original tactic to justify an action against the downtrodden. We have all seen this assertion over and over again. The application of this reasoning to its logical conclusion would mean abandoning the rule of law, democracy and basic human rights. If you are of certain status, you can get away with anything, unless it violates the interests of someone with the same or higher status. It's a shame to see how many capsuleers have already chosen to step on this path and are demanding the release of Kinhar Elokur. It is silly to even suggest that this man, capable of butchering three men in the blink of an eye, would have been "terrified" at any point. To fight one of them to death could have been indicental, but to hunt down and slay every one of them tells volumes about the motivations of the killer. Before you demand that this murderer and member of the privileged class, University of Caille student Elokur should be given a free pass, I wish you also take a moment to think whether you also support everything that his release would imply.
Lorcan Orphrey Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 17	Posted - 2013.10.11 08:53:00 - [2] - Quote I think it prudent to hear the results of the investigation before deciding on his release. Call me a bourgeois elitist but I have no problem with the viewing the sort of people who chose to retaliate against something by randomly assaulting another member of the same ethnic group of the perpetrator as somehow lesser people than university students.
Chinwe Rhei Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.10.11 10:08:00 - [3] - Quote I'm sorry but did you just call a minmatar living in the Federation, who was savagely atacked because of his ethnicity and is now unjustly imprisoned again because of ethnic gallente control of a corrupt justice system a "member of the priviledged class". I don't think those words mean what you think they mean. If his "class" had power in the federation we wouldn't need to demand justice for him.
Makkal Hanaya Revenent Defence Corperation 864	Posted - 2013.10.11 10:10:00 - [4] - Quote The Federation: Known for its freedom, equality, and for its race and class warfare. Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Seriphyn Inhonores Elusenian Cooperative 552	Posted - 2013.10.11 10:29:00 - [5] - Quote Makkal Hanaya wrote: The Federation: Known for its freedom, equality, and for its race and class warfare. Well, you know, there is this other major sovereignty which has institutionalized even worse things than that, but I forgot the name... Anyway, this is upholding the rule of law 101. It would be a sorry state of affairs if anyone could get away with anything saying "is it 'cause I'm Minmatar?". Even if it was self-defence, the circumstances still warrant an investigation. You can't just expect the Synchelleans to go "Ah, all three must have died mysteriously of heart attacks before you at the same time. You're free to go". Sorry, that's not how it's done over here. Let the trial and investigation take place. The details provided are bare bones.
Gabriel Darkefyre Gradient Electus Matari 149	Posted - 2013.10.11 10:56:00 - [6] - Quote Seriphyn Inhonores wrote: Makkal Hanaya wrote: The Federation: Known for its freedom, equality, and for its race and class warfare. Well, you know, there is this other major sovereignty which has institutionalized even worse things than that, but I forgot the name... Anyway, this is upholding the rule of law 101. It would be a sorry state of affairs if anyone could get away with anything saying "is it 'cause I'm Minmatar?". Even if it was self-defence, the circumstances still warrant an investigation. You can't just expect the Synchelleans to go "Ah, all three must have died mysteriously of heart attacks before you at the same time. You're free to go". Sorry, that's not how it's done over here. Let the trial and investigation take place. The details provided are bare bones. Investigation, Yes. However take a second look at the OP, he's already labelling Elokur as "Murderer" before any of the relevant facts regarding the case have even been presented. Declaring him as Guilty before a Trial has even occurred which is most definitely not supposed to be the way things are done in the Federation. 3 Gallente Men attacked a Republic Citizen studying at a Gallente Institution in Gallente Space. At the end of the attack, the 3 Gallente were dead. We do not know the circumstances of what happened between.
Valerian Eldiart University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.10.11 11:20:00 - [7] - Quote Chinwe Rhei wrote: I'm sorry but did you just call a minmatar living in the Federation, who was savagely atacked because of his ethnicity I'm sorry but this claim about the motivations of the attackers was made by the accused to defend himself. It's difficult to verify it now when all his victims now lie dead in the mortuary. Chinwe Rhei wrote: and is now unjustly imprisoned again because of ethnic gallente control of a corrupt justice system a "member of the priviledged class". I don't think those words mean what you think they mean. You are saying that anyone can just walk in one of the most exclusive and privileged universities in New Eden? I guess it's easy for you to say such things from the upper balconies of the ivory tower. Just go on and be dismissive towards everyone who didn't make it as far as you did. Chinwe Rhei wrote: If his "class" had power in the federation we wouldn't need to demand justice for him. So in your opinion, any copycat of Bloody Hands of Matari should not be help responsible if they go on a killing spree because this your preferred way to get "justice"?
Andreus Ixiris Duty. The Cursed Few 3469	Posted - 2013.10.11 11:24:00 - [8] - Quote How to get a way with anything? Have friends in the right places you can call on in the right circumstances. Mane 614
Wreck Diver Eyvastur Thukker Asset Procurement 0	Posted - 2013.10.11 11:25:00 - [9] - Quote Self defense, as widely reported in the media shouldn't be a prosecutable offense, regardless of the state the alleged attackers ended up in. Mess with a bull, you get the horns.
Valerian Eldiart University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.10.11 11:29:00 - [10] - Quote Gabriel Darkefyre wrote: However take a second look at the OP, he's already labelling Elokur as "Murderer" before any of the relevant facts regarding the case have even been presented. Declaring him as Guilty before a Trial has even occurred which is most definitely not supposed to be the way things are done in the Federation. You seem to be trying to muddy the waters. There is no question about the identity of the man who slaughtered those three gallenteans. It was Elokur. According to the investigators, the facts do not support the theory that he had butchered also the two other men in self-defence. What is unclear is whether Elokur's killings were racially motivated. This is the key question to which the trial will hopefully provide an answer.
Gabriel Darkefyre Gradient Electus Matari 149	Posted - 2013.10.11 11:40:00 - [11] - Quote Valerian Eldiart wrote: Gabriel Darkefyre wrote: However take a second look at the OP, he's already labelling Elokur as "Murderer" before any of the relevant facts regarding the case have even been presented. Declaring him as Guilty before a Trial has even occurred which is most definitely not supposed to be the way things are done in the Federation. You seem to be trying to muddy the waters. There is no question about the identity of the man who slaughtered those three gallenteans. It was Elokur. According to the investigators, the facts do not support the theory that he had butchered also the two other men in self-defence. What is unclear is whether Elokur's killings were racially motivated. This is the key question to which the trial will hopefully provide an answer. I'm sorry, What? Elokur gets attacked by 3 Gallente Men and somehow this makes him into the Racist Aggressor? Like to try again with something that makes some Logical sense? There is no doubt that Elokur killed the men. What the Prosecution will have to prove beyond reasonable doubt, is whether it was Murder. Innocent until proven Guilty.
Rosen Thornn House of Nightshade 21	Posted - 2013.10.11 12:25:00 - [12] - Quote As much as I hate to accuse a fellow Minmitar of any crime, I do believe this requires further investigation. While unlikely, it is possible for a well trained man to take out three assailants. http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/atlanins-distribution-center-attack-sparks-unrest-in-essence-59-detained/ The attack on the Impetus Distribution center happened the night before. Now it is possible that a group of Gallente where looking for revenge, went out to attack the first Minimatar they ran across. And it just so happens they run into a trained killer.
Seriphyn Inhonores Elusenian Cooperative 552	Posted - 2013.10.11 12:44:00 - [13] - Quote No, I agree with Gabriel Darkefyre. He is a suspect until a verdict is given. Saying so otherwise is pre-judicial. Even if everyone saw him brutally decapitate his assailants on live holo, then following up with an invocation of the Red God, he is still a suspect. That is the core of the Federation's justice systems. Absolute consistency with its procedures. I agree that the Atlanins attack needs further investigation.
Morwen Lagann Tyrathlion Interstellar 1000	Posted - 2013.10.11 13:22:00 - [14] - Quote Valerian Eldiart wrote: I wish you also take a moment to think whether you also support everything that his release would imply. The only thing his release would imply, based on the information we do have is that it is legal to use deadly force to defend yourself when attacked. I was always taught that if someone attacks you, you should be doing everything in your power to prevent them from doing so again. I've had to defend myself from unprovoked physical attacks before. Twice, in fact, while a student at the Federal Navy Academy. I didn't have to go as far as Elokur did, because a couple broken noses, missing teeth and excruciating pain between the legs got the message across. I don't think that would have been sufficient with three people attacking him. They were probably cocky and looking for a fight, and expected that the three of them would be able to take him down. Well too bad for them: they were wrong, and paid for it. And if you attack someone on the street who you don't know without provocation, you ******* deserve whatever you get. Period. We don't know whether the other two men fled or kept attacking him after he neutralized his first attacker. That's a key thing that should not be overlooked. If they continued attacking him, yes, he was well within his rights to continue defending himself, because most people would turn tail and flee after the first man went down. If they fled and he pursued, then, yes, you may have a case for the deaths of the latter two men. But most certainly not if they kept attacking him. The fact that he was handed directly over to the SDII is a serious cause for concern for everyone involved. Morwen Lagann Director, Tyrathlion Interstellar
Valerian Eldiart University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.10.11 13:32:00 - [15] - Quote Seriphyn Inhonores wrote: No, I agree with Gabriel Darkefyre. He is a suspect until a verdict is given. Saying so otherwise is pre-judicial. Even if everyone saw him brutally decapitate his assailants on live holo, then following up with an invocation of the Red God, he is still a suspect. That is the core of the Federation's justice systems. Absolute consistency with its procedures. I agree that the Atlanins attack needs further investigation. The advocates of Elokur's release were the first ones to claim he is not guilty. All I am saying is that he should be tried in court just like any other person who is suspected from a crime like this. His background should not play any role. All the news releases talk about Elokur as someone involved in this incident. For all I know, he might not even exist, the editors could have just made up the stories to entertain the readership and it's clear that if we don't rely on the information provided by the media, the OP falls apart. The idea that it was his choice to go on and kill the two other men came from the news. You can keep your neutrality, I do not approve what he did and I feel its my duty as a citizen to voice my concerns stand by the values I was raised to believe in.
Valerian Eldiart University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.10.11 13:46:00 - [16] - Quote Morwen Lagann wrote: We don't know whether the other two men fled or kept attacking him after he neutralized his first attacker. That's a key thing that should not be overlooked. If they continued attacking him, yes, he was well within his rights to continue defending himself, because most people would turn tail and flee after the first man went down. If they fled and he pursued, then, yes, you may have a case for the deaths of the latter two men. But most certainly not if they kept attacking him. What the investigators have said so far does not appear to support this scenario but if it turns out to be true, I will gladly take my words back and apologize Elokur for suspecting his motivations. Currently, there is an ongoing massive rally to affect the court decision, to give the suspect a preferential treatment and to release him. If this campaign didn't exist, I would have gladly remained as a quiet and passive follower of the legal process.
Wreck Diver Eyvastur Thukker Asset Procurement 0	Posted - 2013.10.11 13:47:00 - [17] - Quote Valerian Eldiart wrote: I do not approve what he did and I feel its my duty as a citizen to voice my concerns stand by the values I was raised to believe in. What he is alleged to have done. He is by Federal law, innocent until proven beyond reasonable doubt guilty. It is quite simply not your place to judge. For a citizen of the Federation, a nation that espouses virtues of freedom, equality and such; You're not doing a very good job of conveying this being the environment you were raised in.
Valerian Eldiart University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.10.11 14:02:00 - [18] - Quote Wreck Diver wrote: For a citizen of the Federation, a nation that espouses virtues of freedom, equality and such; You're not doing a very good job of conveying this being the environment you were raised in. I will deliver this message to those who started the whole affair by advocating this man's release. In my mind, equality before the law is one very important form of equality, and this is exactly what I'm demanding, even when you and everyone else wishes to decline my right to say so.
Wreck Diver Eyvastur Thukker Asset Procurement 0	Posted - 2013.10.11 14:09:00 - [19] - Quote By all means, mouth off all you like. I'm hardly a moderator of this illustrious message board, nor this thread. I'm just pointing out that you're making no friends here by 'demanding' things you are not entitled to by any right and by condemning a man who may well be innocent. Were you a normal man and not a capsuleer, you can safely bet bottom dollar a libel lawyer would be all over you in a second for your remarks should the alleged murderer be found innocent. Lucky you're not, I guess.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine 1884	Posted - 2013.10.11 14:13:00 - [20] - Quote In law enforcement there are circumstances in which self-defence can cross the line to a criminal offence. The investigation will be exploring whether the Minmatar used an illegal weapon in his defence, whether he used excessive force and also whether the injuries that killed all three of the attackers were actually inflicted in his defence. For example, he could have been confronted by the three men, killed one and the others could have attempted to withdraw. If he followed up his attack on the retreating assailants and killed them while they were trying to escape, it would NOT be self-defence. These factors may be difficult to ascertain - especially with all three of the attackers not being able to give evidence. Extensive forensic investigation will be required. Remember that it is VERY uncommon for three assailants engaged on a casual assault like this to fight to the death - unless given no choice but to do so. These are the points on which the investigation will turn. It is very likely that the student will prove to be both victim AND criminal. Given the political circumstances the investigators will want to make sure that their investigation is spotless.
Ayallah Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 16	Posted - 2013.10.11 14:53:00 - [21] - Quote You come at the king you best not miss. A saying amongst my people. Three Gallenteans learned this lesson in honor. Now we will see what the Federation calls it. Fear The Tribes
Ollie Rundle The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 79	Posted - 2013.10.11 15:19:00 - [22] - Quote Morwen Lagann wrote: The fact that he was handed directly over to the SDII is a serious cause for concern for everyone involved. Not so much a cause for concern as a central point of interest and relevance when considered with bare facts of the case. O. Rundle The Synenose Accord Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Makkal Hanaya Revenent Defence Corperation 870	Posted - 2013.10.12 00:06:00 - [23] - Quote Seriphyn Inhonores wrote: Makkal Hanaya wrote: The Federation: Known for its freedom, equality, and for its race and class warfare. Well, you know, there is this other major sovereignty which has institutionalized even worse things than that, but I forgot the name... I don't see what you hope to gain by dragging the Minmatar into the conversation. Edit: Wait a second. Aren't you in a coma? Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Akrasjel Lanate Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate 1232	Posted - 2013.10.12 11:42:00 - [24] - Quote I wasn't following this case really but have to agree with Mr. Valerian Eldiart Valerian Eldiart wrote: ... It's a shame to see how many capsuleers have already chosen to step on this path and are demanding the release of Kinhar Elokur. It is silly to even suggest that this man, capable of butchering three men in the blink of an eye, would have been "terrified" at any point. To fight one of them to death could have been indicental, but to hunt down and slay every one of them tells volumes about the motivations of the killer... Those Minmatar students can be be real killers it sems. Those three still may have have been the aggressors but that is for the judge to decide and the trial date is set for October 15th.
Evi Polevhia True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators 321	Posted - 2013.10.12 14:09:00 - [25] - Quote Actually the best way to get away with anything is to be a Capsuleer working with Agents. In any one given day back in my time working for the Caldari Navy I killed far more than three Gallente a day. And rarely out of self defense. Even after all of that and earning rather high status in the Navy (for being an independant Capsuleer), it has never been too hard to talk my way into Federation space. The right papers, bribes, threats, or promises and doors fly open. Pity for this man that he is most likely doomed simply because he does not have the connections and influence most of us use daily without any thought about it.
James Syagrius Stillwater Corporation 555	Posted - 2013.10.12 14:44:00 - [26] - Quote Chinwe Rhei wrote: I'm sorry but did you just call a minmatar living in the Federation, who was savagely atacked because of his ethnicity and is now unjustly imprisoned again because of ethnic gallente control of a corrupt justice system a "member of the priviledged class". I don't think those words mean what you think they mean. If his "class" had power in the federation we wouldn't need to demand justice for him. More laments from the cult of perpetual victim hood. Do you know what Matar in the Tribal Entity call Matar in the Federation? ... "Pampered". GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise." http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
Scherezad Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security 1194	Posted - 2013.10.12 15:09:00 - [27] - Quote James Syagrius wrote: More laments from the cult of perpetual victim hood. Do you know what Matar in the Tribal Entity call Matar in the Federation? ... "Pampered". I'm not sure if citing the insults of one culture are sufficient to refute a claim of injustice in another, sir.
Kaid Hayden Seven Stars Search and Rescue 34	Posted - 2013.10.12 17:53:00 - [28] - Quote Makkal Hanaya wrote: The Federation: Known for its freedom, equality, and for its race and class warfare. Oh, no. Race and class warfare is just as alive and kicking in all four empires. But in the Federation there are some who want to give all classes a fighting chance.
Henry Montclaire 42nd Devils and Dragons Dalek Asylum 70	Posted - 2013.10.17 17:39:00 - [29] - Quote For all the preaching being done on behalf of this murderer's supporters (and the fact that he is a murderer is beyond question) they have been quick to condemn the dead as aggressors. In truth, we have nothing but this Matari's word to say that those he killed attacked him. This could be a case of a naturally violent individual baiting innocent bystanders into a conflict, and then indulging in his sadistic impulses under the guise of self defense. We certainly see that scenario played out frequently in capsuleer circles. I don't deny that the Matari face a number of systemic barriers to full integration, and that racism is a part of their daily lives, but even if this scenario happened exactly as the suspect claimed, and even if his attackers were the scum of the galaxy, he still needs to be held, tried, and sentenced for his use of deadly force. Once murder can be deemed justified among the civilian population, potential for abuse arises. Justified murder is solely the provision of the government and ought to remain as such. It is a basic and essential part of the social contract.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine 1933	Posted - 2013.10.17 17:57:00 - [30] - Quote I feel bound to point out that you are speaking in the realms of the hypothetical. He HAS been charged so he DOES need to be tried, but the matter is not as cut and dried as you make out, and the issue of sentencing depends entirely upon the verdict.

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