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Lets pretend stabs were reduced or eliminated

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trust trd	Posted - 2006.01.26 18:52:00 - [1] So say stabs were changed so they could not be effectively used on an attack ship, do you believe everything else will stay the same? Will just as many people now go out into 0.0 and fight the same way as before? Will this just benefit large alliances that can be in larger groups in 0.0? How about pirates? So many talk about changing stabs, but talk like nothing else is going to change. That the battles they do now will be the same and as frequent, just without stabs so they can kill their enemy.
Toy	Posted - 2006.01.26 18:54:00 - [2] You'd have to shift the entire paradigm of the game... People would use recon much more, expendable ships more, and even weird set ups like using combat transports (with the built in +2stab) as a scouting platform... Next, fights would last MORE... No stab, then what? Fit armor plates, cap relays, and armor resistance amplifiers... These are just a few variables that come to mind...
Idara	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:01:00 - [3] I would go...."WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" I never use stabs, only have them used against me. I'd be quite happy. -------------------------------------------------------- Ensign BSC Military The maximum image file size allowed for signatures is 24kb. --Jorauk
trust trd	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:07:00 - [4] Originally by: Idara I would go...."WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" I never use stabs, only have them used against me. I'd be quite happy. Do you realize that those with stabs might not go out into low sec at all then? That might be great for you, but will it be good for Eve to have even less people in low sec? Or maybe I got it all wrong... And almost everyone I know seems to never put on stabs, but they always fight against people that have stabs. It is like everyone uses stabs except themselves.
Naal Morno	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:12:00 - [5] Remove warp scramblers/jammers as well. Only an interdictor bubble or MWD could warp scramble ships. This would be balanced.
Shintoko Akahoshi	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:15:00 - [6] Honestly, if the only way someone would use a pvp battleship or HAC was to fit a rack of stabs, they're better off in a tech 1 cruiser. For that matter, I'd love to see more people in cheap ships. It encourages people to fight more, and it gives less-skilled pvpers something to shoot for. The Red Mom of WarÖ
trust trd	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:34:00 - [7] Edited by: trust trd on 26/01/2006 19:34:53 Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi Honestly, if the only way someone would use a pvp battleship or HAC was to fit a rack of stabs, they're better off in a tech 1 cruiser. For that matter, I'd love to see more people in cheap ships. It encourages people to fight more, and it gives less-skilled pvpers something to shoot for. People don't use cheap ships because they have implants worth millions. If you want to see fighting increase significantly then make it easy (what we have now is not easy) to save your implants. Then you will see lots of non T2 Frig/Cruiser fights. Personally, I think the biggest problem is how implants work.
DarknessInc	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:40:00 - [8] great another goddamn WCS whining thread. SHUT UP about the WCS. There in the game, their not going to be removed, their not going to be nerfed. SO shut up about WCS, because yoou might as well go complain about Missiles being overpowered, or why not go complain and say Energy weapons shouldnt have unlimited ammo. Or hell, why dont u complain about all of us not being able to own an imperial Apoc. Or why not we have it your way. take away all modules, take away all the special faction ships, and we can just bump each other into hell!
Gort	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:46:00 - [9] Enough about WCS. They are what they are. Deal with it. Regards, Gort Makeup artist for the dead
Tran Gladstone	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:49:00 - [10] How about this. If WCS were removed, Then Warp Jamming Could be Removed (it basically cancels each other out, and now people have slots in which they can put other things than WCS and Warp Jamming). If Warpcore Jamming is present, then a counter to them (warp core stabalizers) should also be present.
trust trd	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:54:00 - [11] Originally by: DarknessInc great another goddamn WCS whining thread. SHUT UP about the WCS. There in the game, their not going to be removed, their not going to be nerfed. SO shut up about WCS, because yoou might as well go complain about Missiles being overpowered, or why not go complain and say Energy weapons shouldnt have unlimited ammo. Or hell, why dont u complain about all of us not being able to own an imperial Apoc. Or why not we have it your way. take away all modules, take away all the special faction ships, and we can just bump each other into hell! This is not a WCS whining thread as I think WCS are fine how it is. I am trying to get people to think past the initial perceived benefit of having the WCS removed or changed.
Hamatitio	Posted - 2006.01.26 19:54:00 - [12] How about they change WCS like all other modules? huh? great idea! (quoted from another thread) Originally by: Hamatitio They just need to ******* make them like every other ECM module. Note: Each ship already has a listed Propulsion Strength. This strength is then pitted against a new variety of warp scramblers, Including: Multispectral Scrambler: -2 to all (close range 7500) [Race] Scrambler: -3 or 4 to the specific race to which it applies, -1 to the rest. Long range (20km) We then take these, and use the same formula that is used to decide whether or not the target is scrambled. Bump it back up to a 10-15 second duration, that shuts off when the damn ship is blown up. Shuttles and pods wouuld have a strength of 1, allowing all scramblers to get them, and Freighters, would have a strength of 4, needing hte racial to effectively hold it in place, else it gives it a slight chance of escaping. Now, this also opens the option for Tech2 Warp core stabs AND warp scramblers, along with a skill that increases the strength of these modules. Stabs would also become a +xx% to strength, with a slight stacking penalty... --- I Post on the forums for Fate. Im cool. Fate. Recruitment Thread
R31D	Posted - 2006.01.26 21:15:00 - [13] If stabs were dropped from the game then the people who use them now would have a choice. PvP without stabs or give up EVE. I believe the majority would carry on without stabs - only a few would give up EVE because of it (the whiner tpyes) Free bumpage for all
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.01.26 21:20:00 - [14] Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 26/01/2006 21:21:25 Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 26/01/2006 21:20:28 Personally.. i never use stabs, only been used against me, lol I wouldnt complain if they were removed, however, this Quote: They just need to ******* make them like every other ECM module. Note: Each ship already has a listed Propulsion Strength. This strength is then pitted against a new variety of warp scramblers, Including: Multispectral Scrambler: -2 to all (close range 7500) [Race] Scrambler: -3 or 4 to the specific race to which it applies, -1 to the rest. Long range (20km) We then take these, and use the same formula that is used to decide whether or not the target is scrambled. Bump it back up to a 10-15 second duration, that shuts off when the damn ship is blown up. Shuttles and pods wouuld have a strength of 1, allowing all scramblers to get them, and Freighters, would have a strength of 4, needing hte racial to effectively hold it in place, else it gives it a slight chance of escaping. Now, this also opens the option for Tech2 Warp core stabs AND warp scramblers, along with a skill that increases the strength of these modules. Stabs would also become a +xx% to strength, with a slight stacking penalty... is an EXCELLENT idea Imo it would make things much more balanced and much less.. frustrating? It even makes the propultion strength you see in ship info actually useful instead of being just for show.. Hell even w/o stabs you could have a chance to escape. Also i agree that if stabs were removed there would be more use of actual RECON and longer/better fights, with cheaper setups and fewer people saying "omfg i just lost my 2bil isk ship i quit eve" My .02......
Cade Morrigan	Posted - 2006.01.26 21:23:00 - [15] Originally by: R31D If stabs were dropped from the game then the people who use them now would have a choice. PvP without stabs or give up EVE. I believe the majority would carry on without stabs - only a few would give up EVE because of it (the whiner tpyes) You ignore the masses in empire/lowsec trying not to get gate ganked while hauling.
Wrayeth	Posted - 2006.01.26 21:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Cade Morrigan Originally by: R31D If stabs were dropped from the game then the people who use them now would have a choice. PvP without stabs or give up EVE. I believe the majority would carry on without stabs - only a few would give up EVE because of it (the whiner tpyes) You ignore the masses in empire/lowsec trying not to get gate ganked while hauling. I wouldn't say remove them from the game, but rather make ships fitted with them be ineffective in combat. With WCS fitted: Launcher and turret refire rates should double (i.e. take twice as long). No EW of any sort should be able to be fitted, aside from ECM burst. This would make WCS useful for non-combat ships, but at the same time eliminate their use on anything but scouting ships for PvP. -Wrayeth
Zungen	Posted - 2006.01.26 21:39:00 - [17] be nice if you could use wcs in his, meds and lows and a warp core stab skill to increase warp core strength by +1 and advance warp core stab skill +2 per level :P
Electric Cucumber	Posted - 2006.01.26 21:43:00 - [18] Moaning about stabs is boring and pointless.It's like the players in most FPS whining about 1 shot/1 kill snipers (counter-strike,rainbow six etc). If WCS are nerfed then scramblers/disruptors also need to be nerfed...
Moridan	Posted - 2006.01.26 22:01:00 - [19] The solution in my mind would be to make stabs cause weapon functions and EWAR not to work due to 'unbalancing warp core stability'. Or something. "Speak quietly and carry a big torpedo."
Wrath Trihellion	Posted - 2006.01.26 22:03:00 - [20] I don't know, but it seems to me that the only people who 8itch about warp core stabs are the people who try to kill people like UDIE. They are the ones who come out with like 50-1 odds and rerfuse to fight with any even odds. If they don't have the balls to come out even I don't see why stabs make a difference? Stabs are simply a mechanism that allows small and skilled PvP units to effectively engage HUGE numbers without getting scrambled by some noob in a BS. Its called a tackler you Noobs. Take a vigil and set it up, not for Uber dmg (lol) but maybe actually try using it for what it was designed for instead of griefing about people with stabs getting away from your gankgeddon. Come on people, whining about stabs is not the way, just get over it and maybe use your brains! BTW FIX DAMPNERS TomB, you lazy sod. :)
Hamatitio	Posted - 2006.01.26 22:11:00 - [21] Originally by: Wrath Trihellion I don't know, but it seems to me that the only people who 8itch about warp core stabs are the people who try to kill people like UDIE. They are the ones who come out with like 50-1 odds and rerfuse to fight with any even odds. If they don't have the balls to come out even I don't see why stabs make a difference? Stabs are simply a mechanism that allows small and skilled PvP units to effectively engage HUGE numbers without getting scrambled by some noob in a BS. Its called a tackler you Noobs. Take a vigil and set it up, not for Uber dmg (lol) but maybe actually try using it for what it was designed for instead of griefing about people with stabs getting away from your gankgeddon. Come on people, whining about stabs is not the way, just get over it and maybe use your brains! BTW FIX DAMPNERS TomB, you lazy sod. :) Problem is, when people fit 5x WCS in lows, you need 5x the numbers in order to scramble them, else you are just wasting yoru time. WCS encourage blobbing, plain and simple. --- I Post on the forums for Fate. Im cool. Fate. Recruitment Thread
Wrayeth	Posted - 2006.01.26 22:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Hamatitio [ Problem is, when people fit 5x WCS in lows, you need 5x the numbers in order to scramble them, else you are just wasting yoru time. WCS encourage blobbing, plain and simple. And it's even worse when they fit 5 WCS and also EW. -Wrayeth
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2006.01.26 22:19:00 - [23] Wrath BlaBla: "I don't know, but it seems to me that the only people who 8itch about warp core stabs are the people who try to kill people like UDIE. They are the ones who come out with like 50-1 odds and rerfuse to fight with any even odds. If they don't have the balls to come out even I don't see why stabs make a difference? Stabs are simply a mechanism that allows small and skilled PvP units to effectively engage HUGE numbers without getting scrambled by some noob in a BS. Its called a tackler you Noobs. Take a vigil and set it up, not for Uber dmg (lol) but maybe actually try using it for what it was designed for instead of griefing about people with stabs getting away from your gankgeddon. Come on people, whining about stabs is not the way, just get over it and maybe use your brains!" this one mae me laugh.. having 3 ravens, all fitted with warpcores requires atleas3-5ceptors (one ceptor donw per volley if the raven pilots arent nubs) and then u need some battleships with a good alphastrike dmg. and this is what is called a blob. now what came first? the hen or the egg? - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.01.26 22:28:00 - [24] And removal of WCS leads to less combat. There IS no "remove WCS and all will be cool" answer. --------------------------------------------------------------- Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
Gary Goat	Posted - 2006.01.26 22:31:00 - [25] I think stabs should be like anti damage mods. If you dont want to fight then its just the same but if your aiming to actually fight then it would effect your abillity. If you've got the balls to attack somebody then at least have the dignaty to be killed by them if things turn bad. Please resize your sig. It is too large. (max size is 400x120 pixels/24000 bytes) -Falke
Wrath Trihellion	Posted - 2006.01.26 22:34:00 - [26] I don't know about hens and eggs, but making excuses like, OMG they fly ravens with WCS, is just another way of saying "We suck so bad that we cant manage to put -3 on a target without all dying"
Wrayeth	Posted - 2006.01.26 22:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Wrath Trihellion I don't know about hens and eggs, but making excuses like, OMG they fly ravens with WCS, is just another way of saying "We suck so bad that we cant manage to put -3 on a target without all dying" If it was just a raven with WCS it might be doable. However, it's not. It's several ravens with WCS, and also with ECM jammers and/or sensor dampers. -Wrayeth
tiller	Posted - 2006.01.26 23:00:00 - [28] Originally by: DarknessInc great another goddamn WCS whining thread. SHUT UP about the WCS. There in the game, their not going to be removed, their not going to be nerfed. SO shut up about WCS, because yoou might as well go complain about Missiles being overpowered, or why not go complain and say Energy weapons shouldnt have unlimited ammo. Or hell, why dont u complain about all of us not being able to own an imperial Apoc. Or why not we have it your way. take away all modules, take away all the special faction ships, and we can just bump each other into hell! Seriously, everyone stop the 'oh boohoo blahblah got away, he had stabs sob bs'.... ...or the better 'hey im a real man I never use stabs' ..sooooooooooooo wot, who cares, I don't. Fit what you like, it's the beauty of eve. Just adapt, think your way to getting the kill, stop whining about it
Malka Badi'a	Posted - 2006.01.26 23:11:00 - [29] Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 26/01/2006 23:12:01 Quote: So say stabs were changed so they could not be effectively used on an attack ship, do you believe everything else will stay the same? No stabs = + Edit: Just realised how confusing that is. It means that no stabs would make EVE a pirates playground. --------------
Ecnav	Posted - 2006.01.27 00:42:00 - [30] make a small problem worse by making a BIGGER problem... BRILLIANT!!! how about you quit whining and begin to realise that people are just protecting themselves? At least they are not logging __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ __ Live to Fight Another Day (Run When You're Screwed)
kessah	Posted - 2006.01.27 02:12:00 - [31] My thoughts are changing on this suject - people do seem to have a rather hostile attitude about people that complain about them and atm im starting to side with the whiners. Tonight for example not my proudest moment but my gang engaging 4 hac's each one fitting at least 4+ wcs on there ship, to me it is not the argument of "these ships are expensive so why not" but its hurting the fact that the current mass popularity of pvp based set-up are ruining what ur ships are designed to do. What would u fit if there was no fear of scrambling? I feel a more compromising approach to this problem is the Jamming base idea. Like ECM is now there is that chance u cannot be jammed for a cycle. Or even the more popular highslot idea, but this still overpowers the scrambler. Or perhaps only industrials are the only ship permitted to use wcs? I only make my opinions on this now as it really is ruining the way ships such as the zealot or other hacs battleships and whatnot are fitted for. The end result of 2nite escapade was that all my gang were scrambled becus we did not fit wcs and in fact held are tanks for a good long time before there battleship support eventually came in and took us down slowly. It was fun watching my apoc tank like that, even with 3 Hac's and 2\3 Battleship shooting & Jamming me the poc lasted several 'long' minutes. But with that in mind it was just delaying the enevitable. Why bother tanking when i could have simply stuck on a load of WCS and got away. Its a shame really. I dont know what should be done but i believe something does need to be done. --------------------------------------------------------
danneh	Posted - 2006.01.27 02:24:00 - [32] More solo combat, 1v1's.
Breed Love	Posted - 2006.01.27 03:53:00 - [33] What do all wcs whiners ground their "wcs should nerf damage/only be fitted on haulers etc" ideas? As I see it, since every other defensive module, such as eccm, ecm, tank mods etc doesnt nerf your offensive capabilities in any way, then why should wcs? And if you say "meh wcs is different, gimme penalty", then scramblers should have like -99% dmg penalty when fitted, caus scramblers should be fitted on dedicated tacklers only, no? (following the logic of wcs only being fitted on haulers/travel setups). But thats all rubbish, cause wcs are simply a defensive combat module, which is a must have for certain tactics even, like hit and run. In fact it promotes more fights, which is surely a good thing.
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2006.01.27 04:11:00 - [34] Edited by: Ras Blumin on 27/01/2006 04:11:36 Originally by: Breed Love But thats all rubbish, cause wcs are simply a defensive combat module, which is a must have for certain tactics even, like hit and run. You can do hit 'n runs without stabs. It involves outsmarting your opponent(s) . There's plenty of vids showing various ways of doing it without stabs. p - l - u - r My first vid
Breed Love	Posted - 2006.01.27 04:15:00 - [35] That depends on luck for like 95%, like them being confused, set up for npc, lagging out etc. Or simply being morons or having no teamwork at all. Any half decent gang will lock you down in 10 sec, and then its bye bye.
Mr Floppyknickers	Posted - 2006.01.27 05:37:00 - [36] I've never fitted a stab, and I never will for PvP combat. That said, I am going to start fitting stabs for my missioning and here's why: Last night I was doing an encounter mission in my mega, low sec, and unfortunately by a gate. A pirate fleet popped in and I lost the mega. Now, I'm not whining about that. It's part of the game and point of fact, my stupid own fault. One came in first and I was swinging about to engage his shiney red butt when his friends decloaked and by the time I tried to make a break for it I was tackled and helpless. On that, nice tactics by nubs and cohorts and major salute to the stones on the guy in the marcharel. Even in a small fleet that's still a hell of a risk. From this point forward I'm going to use a stab or two on my mission ships. Because they are PvE, and as such never fitted well for a good PvP fight. And while I have been playing for a few months taking the 150+ mil hit because I got stupid / caught with my pants low is hardly appealing. Perhaps when I get more iskies it won't matter, but meh, i'd rather sacrifice a low or 2 for some easy NPC's than lose my main money maker being unprepared to deal with a threat. I see stabs as being used for situations like that. And to be honest, removing them will only make people blob up more for snipe fests, at least those people already inclined to use them for PvP combat.
Pointless Vengence	Posted - 2006.01.27 06:08:00 - [37] Edited by: Pointless Vengence on 27/01/2006 06:09:27 Interdictor Spheres and Mobile Warp Disruptors neutralize stabs for those who have access to them. Problem solved. Stabs have a place in the game for people who dont want to engage in PvP. Eliminating them would cripple the game play for one group for the sake of another. Use the tools that are provided. I dont think taht the creation of Interdictors and Mobile Warp Distruptors was . . . -Pointless
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.01.27 06:13:00 - [38] Originally by: Breed Love But thats all rubbish, cause wcs are simply a defensive combat module, which is a must have for certain tactics even, like hit and run. In fact it promotes more fights, which is surely a good thing. Well.. i dont know about promoting fighting, but it sure promotes wasting of time and ammo when you get someone to structure only to have them fly off... And yes, they are a defensive module... except that they are uber unbalanced compared to other defensive modules. For example the first poster on second page, instead of dedicating her WHOLE setup to tanking and dying anyway, you could put on a few wcs's and never die.... Huh.. Yup sounds balanced 2 mez!!!!
Wrayeth	Posted - 2006.01.27 08:13:00 - [39] Originally by: Ras Blumin You can do hit 'n runs without stabs. It involves outsmarting your opponent(s) . There's plenty of vids showing various ways of doing it without stabs. QFT! I've done successful hit-and-runs in an AC tempest without stabs. In Delve. Solo. -Wrayeth
Rex Martell	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:29:00 - [40] Originally by: Tran Gladstone How about this. If WCS were removed, Then Warp Jamming Could be Removed (it basically cancels each other out, and now people have slots in which they can put other things than WCS and Warp Jamming). If Warpcore Jamming is present, then a counter to them (warp core stabalizers) should also be present. Good Point "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his"
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:41:00 - [41] no jammers no wcs, and if u have pvp agressed u cant warp til the agression timer is over. could live with that. would b awesome. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Agricola Augusta	Posted - 2006.01.27 11:10:00 - [42] Whenever I read a post about nerfing WCS I get terrifying flashbacks to when I played SWG. There used to be a skill called "feign death" a smuggler skill that every jedi had. When a Bountyhunter (me) turned up the jedi would initiate the skill. The skill would cause him to lay on the ground pretending to be dead and I couldn't /deathblow him. Usually they'd smacktalk until I left or they'd just /logout. As you can guess there was much crying about this "Whhhhhhaaaa I can't kill the Jedi whhhhha!!!", "It's not fair nerf feign death!". Eventually the skill was removed and all jedi would roam about in groups of about 20 people who would gank the lone Bounty hunter (me). Then people complained about group TEFs "Whhhhhhaaaa it's not fair his friends kill me!", "whaaaaaaa we want 1v1, a fair fight whhhaaaa!" (both sides engaged in this whine). So group TEFs were removed so it was just 1v1. But guess what? Yeh people still p*ed and moaned on both sides. "Whaaaaa, it's not fair he attacks me but my jedi is too weak!". So they introduce a /cloak skill, guess what? Yup, "whaaaa it's not fair I can't kill him because he's /cloaked whhhhaaaaa!" Eventually Sony solved the problem, they removed all PVP missions and bounties on player jedi. So guess what now? Yup, everyone on both sides is ping and moaning about the fact they have no pvp and can only hunt NPC jedi in lame missions. All pvp is consential in SWG so a rebel wookie can walk up to an imperial jedi and /spit in his face and unless he agrees to a fight then you just have a smacktalk competition! The people that suffered were those that had skills removed from thier professions that were used for other purposes other than pvp. So in my humble opinion I'd say keep it the way it is, and when someone warps away because they used stabs I just remember that "s happens" and "life's a b**".
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.01.27 11:37:00 - [43] Originally by: Hamatitio How about they change WCS like all other modules? huh? great idea! (quoted from another thread) Originally by: Hamatitio They just need to ******* make them like every other ECM module. Note: Each ship already has a listed Propulsion Strength. This strength is then pitted against a new variety of warp scramblers, Including: Multispectral Scrambler: -2 to all (close range 7500) [Race] Scrambler: -3 or 4 to the specific race to which it applies, -1 to the rest. Long range (20km) We then take these, and use the same formula that is used to decide whether or not the target is scrambled. Bump it back up to a 10-15 second duration, that shuts off when the damn ship is blown up. Shuttles and pods wouuld have a strength of 1, allowing all scramblers to get them, and Freighters, would have a strength of 4, needing hte racial to effectively hold it in place, else it gives it a slight chance of escaping. Now, this also opens the option for Tech2 Warp core stabs AND warp scramblers, along with a skill that increases the strength of these modules. Stabs would also become a +xx% to strength, with a slight stacking penalty... I can just imagine a dev steaming at reading that. That is exactly what they were planning to do with warp scrambling when they did the ECM/ECCM overhaul, but the flames on the forums about it were so hot that being on the sun was like being on the northpole on a cold day . Guess what they took it out, as the people claimed they didn't get 100% scramble ever(which they did without stabs fitted, it was 95-105% chance of scrambling, with stabs it only went marginally down as they remained the same as now), well it would've been better than it is now, now if anyone uses stabs they're virtually immune unless you have more scramble strength than they have stabs. Frankly in this case CCP should've just gone ahead and done it, i'm sure they got enough asbestos suits ... ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.01.27 11:42:00 - [44] I remember the time when there were no warp core stabilizers. Sucks big hairy peaches for the unwilling target to have no options available to counter scrambling. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.01.27 11:52:00 - [45] My View on The Subject The Eve Guild Wars Project!
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.01.27 11:54:00 - [46] Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Originally by: Breed Love But thats all rubbish, cause wcs are simply a defensive combat module, which is a must have for certain tactics even, like hit and run. In fact it promotes more fights, which is surely a good thing. Well.. i dont know about promoting fighting, but it sure promotes wasting of time and ammo when you get someone to structure only to have them fly off... And yes, they are a defensive module... except that they are uber unbalanced compared to other defensive modules. For example the first poster on second page, instead of dedicating her WHOLE setup to tanking and dying anyway, you could put on a few wcs's and never die.... Huh.. Yup sounds balanced 2 mez!!!! Well ****ing jump after them, rather than whinging about in in the forums. If they are in a slow ship, they arent exactly going to hit the gates very fast. Just follow their engine trail ffs, it points straight to the place they jumped to. Jump after them. Oh....but now I guess we're going to get the "omg, Nerf Safespots" typical pirate whine.
arutha	Posted - 2006.01.27 12:05:00 - [47] make wcs use energy too be active again and get back too the 0 energy . no warp concept again . wcs are unbalanced because they do not use cap too activate . my opinion
BlackRain	Posted - 2006.01.27 12:14:00 - [48] Originally by: Cade Morrigan You ignore the masses in empire/lowsec trying not to get gate ganked while hauling. For the billionth time: The problem isn't people who fit stabs in order to run away while hauling or travelling. The problem is the fact that some ships can carry a big pile of stabs while still maintaining their ability to mount a good offensive capability. You don't need to remove stabs or make them somehow "less powerful" in terms of countering scrambling. Instead of that, stabs need some kind of bigger penalty when it comes to combining them with guns. ------------------- -
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2006.01.27 12:56:00 - [49] Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 27/01/2006 12:56:10 Cade whatever: "You ignore the masses in empire/lowsec trying not to get gate ganked while hauling." instead of a dont do that, come with a idea or solution that could be useful - or an argument that says abit more. also it would help to read the whole thread instead of only the title, then ud know that not a single person complained bout wcs on haulers. hell my alts haulers are stabbed. my bs when i transport em have nanos in empire, wcs in lows. the big difference there is, that i dont engage and never would - its called a travel fitting. but 5lines, ppl tend to forget the 1st line then alrdy: WCS ARE OK ON EVERYTHING BUT COMBAT FITTED SHIPS - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Kamui Shiro	Posted - 2006.01.27 13:14:00 - [50] Hmm.. if WCS were to disappear i can see hundreds of carebears/pirates complaining about it. Funny cuz, pirates and other gate campers complain about people fitting their ships full of stabs that they cant scram them or that their targets always manage to escape, but when i run into pirates and try to engage them i find most also fit stabs to run away... Quite pathetic...
Agnar Koladrov	Posted - 2006.01.27 14:02:00 - [51] What I would like to see, that instead of wcs and warp jammers, they introduce warp jammer missiles. Just like you had in Freelancer. Then and only then, defenders will see much wider use, target jammers and ECM will do what electronic counter measures are ment for. Only problem there is that not every ship can fit missiles or ECM. But he, not every ship can fit wcs and jammers today. But still a sort of a problem.
kessah	Posted - 2006.01.27 14:05:00 - [52] Originally by: Agricola Augusta Whenever I read a post about nerfing WCS I get terrifying flashbacks to when I played SWG. There used to be a skill called "feign death" a smuggler skill that every jedi had. When a Bountyhunter (me) turned up the jedi would initiate the skill. The skill would cause him to lay on the ground pretending to be dead and I couldn't /deathblow him. Usually they'd smacktalk until I left or they'd just /logout. As you can guess there was much crying about this "Whhhhhhaaaa I can't kill the Jedi whhhhha!!!", "It's not fair nerf feign death!". Eventually the skill was removed and all jedi would roam about in groups of about 20 people who would gank the lone Bounty hunter (me). Then people complained about group TEFs "Whhhhhhaaaa it's not fair his friends kill me!", "whaaaaaaa we want 1v1, a fair fight whhhaaaa!" (both sides engaged in this whine). So group TEFs were removed so it was just 1v1. But guess what? Yeh people still p*ed and moaned on both sides. "Whaaaaa, it's not fair he attacks me but my jedi is too weak!". So they introduce a /cloak skill, guess what? Yup, "whaaaa it's not fair I can't kill him because he's /cloaked whhhhaaaaa!" Eventually Sony solved the problem, they removed all PVP missions and bounties on player jedi. So guess what now? Yup, everyone on both sides is ping and moaning about the fact they have no pvp and can only hunt NPC jedi in lame missions. All pvp is consential in SWG so a rebel wookie can walk up to an imperial jedi and /spit in his face and unless he agrees to a fight then you just have a smacktalk competition! The people that suffered were those that had skills removed from thier professions that were used for other purposes other than pvp. So in my humble opinion I'd say keep it the way it is, and when someone warps away because they used stabs I just remember that "s happens" and "life's a b*". This is not SWG, we are simply questioning the logic behind these modules. There should be other way of defending urself in pvp then spamming your lows with wcs. Why Fit your ship out with all these new tanking mods\skillz ooo thanks CCP...* Just guna delaying the death you'll eventually recieve from the force thats scramled you. Fit WCS you live and ul get a nice smack in local saying how lame you are, Fit full tank or whatnot die with honour or really die foolishly. Either way they scramble you down with full tank youve got a the time they call in support to kill that -1 scramble ship before ur dead. --------------------------------------------------------
Breed Love	Posted - 2006.01.27 14:54:00 - [53] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists WCS ARE OK ON EVERYTHING BUT COMBAT FITTED SHIPS Umm, now tell us who the hell told you that nonsense?
RadarJack	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:08:00 - [54] It should be fight OR run, not fight AND run. 50% R.O.F. penalty for each stab should do it, allows for fitting of 1-2 and still have a vague possibility of fighting, but fitting 3-4-5 would make you totally unable to kill something that can survive a round of attacks. Easy to code, doesn't hurt those haulers/travellers that want to run, ****s up those that load up on WCS's and still expect to kill anything that moves.
Kery Nysell	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:15:00 - [55] Oooooooooo too easy to resist ... Originally by: RadarJack It should be fight OR run, not fight AND run. Ever heard the term "hit and run tactics" ? There are quite a few ships very well suited to this tactic, and if you stop to read the background and backstories (gasp), you'll find that it's the prefered method of warfare of the Minmatars and to some extent the Caldaris ...
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:18:00 - [56] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 27/01/2006 15:18:54 hmmm not going to read all this, but just add a comment: I do not use stabs normaly, only for special occasions. Like I forced a gate camping ferox to leave so my CEO could jump through with a hauler full of POS components. Used a Merlin with 2 stabs, warped to pirate, he targeted and shot me, I warped off. He was forced to leave the gate by sentries. 2 more things: 1. It was a quick trick, only purpose was to force him to leave the gate. 2. If I had the frig equiped for a fight with scrambler, I could have held him long enough for the sentries to kill him. So stabs actualy prevented me from doing so (had no tank with 2 stabs in lows). But I presume he had stabs himself. There are cases when stabs are usefull. I personaly don't like fighting ships with stabs, but removeing stabs will screw much more than only those. ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well ...
RadarJack	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:20:00 - [57] Edited by: RadarJack on 27/01/2006 15:25:01 Originally by: Kery Nysell Oooooooooo too easy to resist ... Originally by: RadarJack It should be fight OR run, not fight AND run. Ever heard the term "hit and run tactics" ? There are quite a few ships very well suited to this tactic, and if you stop to read the background and backstories (gasp), you'll find that it's the prefered method of warfare of the Minmatars and to some extent the Caldaris ... You dont need WCS's to hit and run... And if it is a roleplaying/background angle you want then it should be easier for Min/Cald to fit them than say Amarr, but alas its nothing to do with races, its a game mechanic.
Kery Nysell	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:32:00 - [58] Edited by: Kery Nysell on 27/01/2006 15:32:35 Originally by: Kery Nysell Oooooooooo too easy to resist ... Originally by: RadarJack It should be fight OR run, not fight AND run. Ever heard the term "hit and run tactics" ? There are quite a few ships very well suited to this tactic, and if you stop to read the background and backstories (gasp), you'll find that it's the prefered method of warfare of the Minmatars and to some extent the Caldaris ... Ok, that was totally childish on my part, and obviously not understood ... I never said WCSs were needed for hit and run tactics, I just took a jab at ten words in your post that didn't make any sense to me ... Hit and run tactics are a perfectly valid style of play, and I honestly think it should never be a case of "fight OR run" ...
Shin Ra	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:46:00 - [59] People who travel by themselves would simply use noob alts to scout.
Filan	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:50:00 - [60] easy solution to a stab nerf, make all haulers +1 warp power per level of Industrial. so someone with Caldari Industrial 5 their Badger Mk2 would have +5 warp power.
smallgreenblur	Posted - 2006.01.27 16:03:00 - [61] I'm not bothered either way, i'm just sick of people whining about thread adressing this or that issue. Everybody's got their side to the argument, how about we let them present it without reading the first line and going off on one hmm? sgb
Algey	Posted - 2006.01.27 18:31:00 - [62] Originally by: Wrayeth Originally by: Wrath Trihellion I don't know about hens and eggs, but making excuses like, OMG they fly ravens with WCS, is just another way of saying "We suck so bad that we cant manage to put -3 on a target without all dying" If it was just a raven with WCS it might be doable. However, it's not. It's several ravens with WCS, and also with ECM jammers and/or sensor dampers. How mean of them to set their ships up sensibly so that they are effective and very hard to kill. Nerf the ability to fight so that the bigger fleet ALWAYS kills the smaller one and there is no chance for the smaller fleet but to be pounded to death
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2006.01.27 19:18:00 - [63] shame on u when u think smaller groups only chances to win are warp core stabs - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Xio2	Posted - 2006.01.27 19:22:00 - [64] Edited by: Xio2 on 27/01/2006 19:22:12 Originally by: DarknessInc great another goddamn WCS whining thread. SHUT UP about the WCS. There in the game, their not going to be removed, their not going to be nerfed. SO shut up about WCS, because yoou might as well go complain about Missiles being overpowered, or why not go complain and say Energy weapons shouldnt have unlimited ammo. Or hell, why dont u complain about all of us not being able to own an imperial Apoc. Or why not we have it your way. take away all modules, take away all the special faction ships, and we can just bump each other into hell! qft. edit: spelt qtf wrong -------------- now this is the way a sig should be Xio2
Algey	Posted - 2006.01.27 19:31:00 - [65] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists shame on you when you think smaller groups only chances to win are warp core stabs Oh I don't, however using WCS and ECM makes for a very flexible and easily redeployed force that is much harder to pin down than it would be without them. I personally think that a raiding force without them has made a serious error, however there will always be people who are "robbed" of their killmails who will disagree.
Fuazzole	Posted - 2006.01.27 20:38:00 - [66] If WCS were eliminated the care bear's would have to put somthing else in thier low slots....like....somthing usfull and maybe then when we attack em they might stand a very good chance now of winning....this is unaceptable
Einheriar Ulrich	Posted - 2006.01.27 20:48:00 - [67] I am no fan of WCS, but i understand why people use them. If you wanna change wcs's, then make them into a mid slot item, which acquires activation, just like jammers etc etc. seems only fair ;)
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2006.01.27 23:08:00 - [68] Edited by: Ras Blumin on 27/01/2006 23:08:30 Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich I am no fan of WCS, but i understand why people use them. If you wanna change wcs's, then make them into a mid slot item, which acquires activation, just like jammers etc etc. I'm not too bothered about wcs not using cap. I have however suggested before that wcs gets moved to mids, as mids > lows in general. p - l - u - r My first vid
Cleonius	Posted - 2006.01.28 01:22:00 - [69] Nerf WCS => Send more people to high sec or outside the game. Great fun. Yeah.
CherniyVolk	Posted - 2006.01.28 02:12:00 - [70] Originally by: Electric Cucumber Moaning about stabs is boring and pointless.It's like the players in most FPS whining about 1 shot/1 kill snipers (counter-strike,rainbow six etc). If WCS are nerfed then scramblers/disruptors also need to be nerfed... I've never witnessed this. I love playing UT2004, and it seems most of the players dominate InstaGib servers, where one shot is an instant kill. I would like to see WCSs "nerfed" in a way to force them to be used appropriately. The ONLY rationale reason for using a WCS is for evasion. Other reasons for a WCS that aren't rationale are fear, uncertainty and brash cowardice, for these reasons the only things evaded with a WCS are the consequences; hardly noble. Evasion, not defense, not offense. If someone is fitting a WCS, meant for evasion, with offense in mind then it should have heavy penalities. Haulers who can't have much for offense or defense, WCS + bonuses even. Even mining barges, who are clearly not front line attack vessels, WCS makes sense. I would even consider covert-ops ships evasive, but not stealth bombers since they are to engage when possible (covert-ops such as spying, scouting, snooping etc. should avoid engagement at all reasonable costs). I think haulers should be very difficult to impossible to scram. Seriously, they take so long to align and warp, those attacking should have the skills to pop them that much faster... they aren't battle ship quality tanks either, so it's rather pathetic for a need to scram a hauler. Also, you can ram them once and they have to align again; most ganks always has an interceptor. If you can't pop a hauler without having to scramble it to ping it at 9.8 dmg a shot.... you should reconsider your endeavours. Also, it would make the gate camps more interesting, they either fit for close range to gank incoming targets, or they fit for mid/long range to attack targets warping from the gate.
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2006.01.28 02:40:00 - [71] Algey: "Oh I don't, however using WCS and ECM makes for a very flexible and easily redeployed force that is much harder to pin down than it would be without them. I personally think that a raiding force without them has made a serious error, however there will always be people who are "robbed" of their killmails who will disagree." now imagine the bigger grioup/fleet would alosfit only wcs and ecm. the smaller fleet wouldnt get a scramble cause the wcs and the ecm (used on the frigs), and thus wouldnt b able to hold down targets to kill em before they warp out. so how u describe it its a must to fit wcs and ecm on ships, and in the end it doesnt matter how big ur gang is, its the I Win button. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Malken	Posted - 2006.01.28 04:15:00 - [72] Originally by: Reatu Krentor I can just imagine a dev steaming at reading that. That is exactly what they were planning to do with warp scrambling when they did the ECM/ECCM overhaul, but the flames on the forums about it were so hot that being on the sun was like being on the northpole on a cold day . Guess what they took it out, as the people claimed they didn't get 100% scramble ever(which they did without stabs fitted, it was 95-105% chance of scrambling, with stabs it only went marginally down as they remained the same as now), well it would've been better than it is now, now if anyone uses stabs they're virtually immune unless you have more scramble strength than they have stabs. Frankly in this case CCP should've just gone ahead and done it, i'm sure they got enough asbestos suits ... and look at what they did to ECM? ECM is now a "i win" button. everyone and their mom sticks ECM on their ships and it has no counter. backup arrays are a joke, they wont stop you from getting jammed by a single module for minutes on end. i wouldnt call that "fix" a success and if they screw up equally royally with WCS and scramblers i wouldnt be suprised at all. one of the big problems is the cost of things in this game and peoples fear of loosing them wich makes them fit 4+ stabs on their hacs like flashman services do. a cruiser sized ship shouldnt cost twice the amount a battleship costs, maybe tops 75% of a BS. its CCP's fault for not adjusting the availability. start selling tech2 BPO's by NPC corps and we will get availability and prices will drop to a normal level. i wouldnt care if the bpo cost 2bill we would get more producers and people would be able to buy at more resonable prices and not be so damn afraid of loosing the ships.
Agricola Augusta	Posted - 2006.01.28 06:09:00 - [73] Originally by: kessah This is not SWG, we are simply questioning the logic behind these modules. There should be other way of defending urself in pvp then spamming your lows with wcs. Why Fit your ship out with all these new tanking mods\skillz ooo thanks CCP... Just guna delaying the death you'll eventually recieve from the force thats scramled you. Fit WCS you live and ul get a nice smack in local saying how lame you are, Fit full tank or whatnot die with honour or really die foolishly. Either way they scramble you down with full tank youve got a the time they call in support to kill that -1 scramble ship before ur dead. I agree that this isn't SWG but I totally disagree with your logic behind changing WCS. Just because you have a full tank and are scrambled doesn't lead to death. Nor does having WCS lead to certain survival. Here are some tactics I have used to escape in the past, use your grey matter and target the scrambler (hmmm 2 BSs and 1 frig let me think!). Destroy/nos/jam the scrambler whilst tanking the gang bangers allowing you to escape (sometimes). One reason so many of these retarded pirates that claim to be great pvpers with massive amounts of killmails (you know the ones I mean), actually do have these killmails is because, A: They kill noobs in reapers B: They kill noobs in haulers C: They kill people who give up after being scrambled D: They escape people who give up after they warp due to WCS There's more than one way to skin a slaver hound and I've escaped with and without the help of WCS. You say there should be other ways of defending yourself in pvp other than WCS, I say check out setups that aren't just a standard tank + turrets/missiles layout. People that have that standard layout I find die, unless lows are full of WCS then they can only kill noobs (see above). People with more Imaginative setups often kill me What about the new drones? You must have won some battles? If I read your post correctly you're basicaly saying WCS = live, full tank = die slowly. I'm sorry but I have to disagree with that reasoning if I understand you properly (if not no offence is intended).
Algey	Posted - 2006.01.28 10:49:00 - [74] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists now imagine the bigger grioup/fleet would alosfit only wcs and ecm. the smaller fleet wouldnt get a scramble cause the wcs and the ecm (used on the frigs), and thus wouldnt b able to hold down targets to kill em before they warp out. so how u describe it its a must to fit wcs and ecm on ships, and in the end it doesnt matter how big ur gang is, its the I Win button. What would be expected to happen here is that the larger fleet will blow up the smaller fleet. Fleet engagements are more about having groups of battleships popping one battleship at a time (large fleets split into multiple fire groups if they are sensible). The smaller fleet might be able to concentrate fire and pop an enemy battleship before being wiped out, however with no ecm support they rather deserve to get killed. It is rare that in a laggy fleet battle a person gets to warp once they are called primary anyway, the damage coming in is too large for that. It tends to be get called primary, explode. What the WCS actually does is sacrifice a small amount of tank or gank in exchange for forcing the enemy to use multiple tacklers to pin each ship. Doing this means that fewer ships can be tackled from your force, so you lose less ships if you bump into a blob. A smaller fleet can only defeat a larger fleet under certain circumstances (such as a short range fleet being engaged at long range or visa versa), or where the larger fleet is poorly coordinated. I would personally think that this makes sense, and as such I don't really see a problem with it.
sarabando	Posted - 2006.01.28 21:14:00 - [75] how about u stop whining about they get to run away and dont fit scrams and work harder to cripple them ith the first blow.
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2006.01.28 21:20:00 - [76] Edited by: JoeSomebody on 28/01/2006 21:21:53 no stabs does not mean fair fights, nor longer fights... it only mean that LESS ppl will do pvp, which means LESS fights in total and more UNFAIR fights, because ppl will only engage targets they can easily take down. Means more noob-alt spies. Means more pirates pwning helpless newbs and avoiding real fights. Means more power to gate camps. Means... Yeah lets add more grief to this game... ____ Petition: Nerf alts!
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.10.26 05:02:00 - [77] Originally by: DarknessInc great another goddamn WCS whining thread. SHUT UP about the WCS. There in the game, their not going to be removed, their not going to be nerfed. SO shut up about WCS, because yoou might as well go complain about Missiles being overpowered, or why not go complain and say Energy weapons shouldnt have unlimited ammo. Or hell, why dont u complain about all of us not being able to own an imperial Apoc. Or why not we have it your way. take away all modules, take away all the special faction ships, and we can just bump each other into hell! opps ;)
Tek'a Rain Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.10.26 05:09:00 - [78] holy necro batman! Blaque or Foiritan

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