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Are sentries in 0.1 - 0.4 outdated?

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KamiCrazy	Posted - 2006.01.27 08:19:00 - [1] I was reading that post by EternalDragon and while I don't agree with its whining it got me thinking, do sentry guns in 0.1 to 0.4 sec systems do anything anymore? Does it discourage pirating? No. Do pirates fear sentries? No. Do sentries protect vulnerable ships like iterons? No. So what purpose do they really serve now? Is there a continued reason for its existence? I find myself thinking now that other then being part of the landscape, they are rather useless.
F'nog	Posted - 2006.01.27 08:31:00 - [2] Yep, a lot of players predicted this when sentries were introduced, and I think they've been proven correct. Sentries should be removed from low sec as they don't really do anything but encourage sniping. Originally by: rowbin hod Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage.
Cvuos	Posted - 2006.01.27 08:35:00 - [3] At least they make gate campers put in some effort.
Vendrin	Posted - 2006.01.27 08:54:00 - [4] Originally by: Cvuos At least they make gate campers put in some effort. I'd rather have a chance to fight back then be sniped by a bs 120km away. Need help in Caldari Space? Join channel CCDF to give or recieve it.
Viceroy	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:14:00 - [5] Sentry guns put pirates in significant disadvantage against those who would hunt them. Basically, anyone willing to challenge a pirate gate camp in empire has the firepower of 2 sentries in adition to whatever firepower they field themselves, thus the pirates are in huge disadvantage. Sentry guns weren't meant to keep 0.4- gates 100% safe, and they weren't meant to allow the stupid indy pilots who can't be bothered to check the map, use instajumps, use nanofibers or scout ahead to travel safely afk through low sec space. Sentry guns are definately not outdated. They work perfectly. It's terribly easy to ambush pirates who are trying to tank sentry guns, if sentries were any more powerful, no one could hunt outlaws in empire space as they wouldn't be vulnerable.
KamiCrazy	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Viceroy Sentry guns put pirates in significant disadvantage against those who would hunt them. Basically, anyone willing to challenge a pirate gate camp in empire has the firepower of 2 sentries in adition to whatever firepower they field themselves, thus the pirates are in huge disadvantage. Sentry guns weren't meant to keep 0.4- gates 100% safe, and they weren't meant to allow the stupid indy pilots who can't be bothered to check the map, use instajumps, use nanofibers or scout ahead to travel safely afk through low sec space. Sentry guns are definately not outdated. They work perfectly. It's terribly easy to ambush pirates who are trying to tank sentry guns, if sentries were any more powerful, no one could hunt outlaws in empire space as they wouldn't be vulnerable. Thats a very good way to look at it. However lets be realistic, even pirates do not believe in that. In reality and all practical applications of low sec gate camping done by pirates. Sentries have a minor effect at best.
Nooey	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Cvuos At least they make gate campers put in some effort. Exactly. Originally by: Vendrin I'd rather have a chance to fight back then be sniped by a bs 120km away. A lack of sentries wouldn't mean that they would stop sniping outside of retaliatory range. Obviously though, it would make that tactic less common. They add the need for a bit more required thought to piracy in lowsec (i.e. you can't just use tackling interceptors, you need heavy tacklers or you need overwhelming damage outside of Sentry Range). They also help to seperate 0.0 from lowsec. Take sentries away and the only difference is Sec Hits, no? ____________
Nooey	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Viceroy Sentry guns put pirates in significant disadvantage against those who would hunt them. Basically, anyone willing to challenge a pirate gate camp in empire has the firepower of 2 sentries in adition to whatever firepower they field themselves, thus the pirates are in huge disadvantage. Sure, but like you say of the victims... Originally by: Viceroy ...use nanofibers or scout ahead Pirate gangs without a scout keeping an eye out for incoming anti-pirate gangs (Or other pirates, whatever...) deserve to get jumped. Goes two ways. ____________
Cypherous	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:30:00 - [9] What people dont see is the actual effort it takes to tank sentries and short of a dread (you know it will happen eventually) nothing these days can tank sentries indefinately, do sentries need to be boosted? the answer is no they are fine how they are, do sentries need to be removed? hell no that would just make it too easy to kill people as i could just fit a full tank and then go on a killing spree, are sentries a deterent? yes and no, if you want to tank sentries it requires effort and under that sort of stress even a frigate with a scrambler can kill you. 0.0 - 0.4 is not supposed to be safe to travel without care thats why there are no concord, i personally think sentry guns work fine how they are and if you want to flame me then go for it i'll live, the long and short of it is plan ahead and use a scout if you can.
Swiftness	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:42:00 - [10] sentries also prevent pirates from camping gates with instant-locking ships.... be happy
KamiCrazy	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Swiftness sentries also prevent pirates from camping gates with instant-locking ships.... be happy A throwaway alt with a badger 2 solves that easily. So thats not true. Tanking sentries maybe some sort of effort but in the end if you can work around the problem then the problem no longer exists does it? In essence if sentries did not exist, would it make low sec more dangerous then it is now?
Cvuos	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Vendrin I'd rather have a chance to fight back then be sniped by a bs 120km away. You mean you don't have a chance to fight back when you're being sniped? So what is the incentive to stop sniping, regardless of sentries?
Cvuos	Posted - 2006.01.27 09:55:00 - [13] Originally by: KamiCrazy In essence if sentries did not exist, would it make low sec more dangerous then it is now? Of course. Being able to sentry tank doesn't mean everyone can do it, constantly. Without sentries you'd have insta-locking tacklers and ganked out battleships, making blockade running impossible. I think 0.4 - 0.1 should have some PvP dynamics instead of just being a rat indicator. Tougher sentries in .4, easier in .1.
Tony Fats	Posted - 2006.01.27 11:25:00 - [14] Originally by: KamiCrazy Originally by: Viceroy Sentry guns put pirates in significant disadvantage against those who would hunt them. Basically, anyone willing to challenge a pirate gate camp in empire has the firepower of 2 sentries in adition to whatever firepower they field themselves, thus the pirates are in huge disadvantage. Sentry guns weren't meant to keep 0.4- gates 100% safe, and they weren't meant to allow the stupid indy pilots who can't be bothered to check the map, use instajumps, use nanofibers or scout ahead to travel safely afk through low sec space. Sentry guns are definately not outdated. They work perfectly. It's terribly easy to ambush pirates who are trying to tank sentry guns, if sentries were any more powerful, no one could hunt outlaws in empire space as they wouldn't be vulnerable. Thats a very good way to look at it. However lets be realistic, even pirates do not believe in that. In reality and all practical applications of low sec gate camping done by pirates. Sentries have a minor effect at best. Are you out of your mind? No effect??? Pfft First off, it makes it so a inty/frigate can't web and scramble you at the gate, it has to be a bigger ship. That bigger ship innately has a much longer time to lock, giving travellers time to warp. Second off, it adds the firepower of the sentries to the defending party if they feel like fighting back. Third off, it makes snipers use longer range ammo which is gonna be weaker. If not for the sentry you would be getting hit by a depleted uranium or sabot round instead of carbonized lead. They are helping you survive just by forcing the attacking ships to have a tank. If they did not need a tank, they could stack a bunch of damage mods in the lows and hit you even harder. People take the sentry guns for GRANTED, they are a HUGE help but the carebears (and even some veterans like the OP) don't have the mechanical knowledge to understand how they help.
Darlan Flame	Posted - 2006.01.27 11:32:00 - [15] The current sentry guns are balanced extreamly carefully right at the point where they offer a sizable disadvantage to the person under fire, while not being so powerful as to completely negate trying to do it at all. After all, low security is just that, low security, where you have a little bit of help but its not going to do all the work. Why even have low sec if you take out the guns? It's just 0.0 then.
Cantari	Posted - 2006.01.27 11:36:00 - [16] I can vouch for the effectiveness of sentries. I got jumped by a raven in a 0.4 not so long ago as i flew along in my apoc, fortunately with the combined firepower of my ship and the sentries the raven had to flee, was also very lucky that i was tanked to the hilt, but trust me if those sentries hadnt been there I would have been toast. Cantari
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2006.01.27 12:22:00 - [17] The only fault in the sentries in 0.1-0.4 is that their range should be extended. They otherwise kinda work, people dislike tanking them.. Making the area what it should be like - semi-secure.
Ashorah	Posted - 2006.01.27 12:34:00 - [18] One would believe the thread is authoured by a gate camper, hmmm? Let's not make it too easy for the gank squads, shall we? Force them to use at least a little of their grey matter when taking on the weak, defenseless and mentally challenged. But, in deference to the one who started the thread, perhaps CCP should throw in the random empire navy patrol to keep everyone on their toes and make the sentry guns a tad more useful. We wouldn't want anything to be merely decorative would we?
Nicholai Pestot	Posted - 2006.01.27 12:38:00 - [19] Edited by: Nicholai Pestot on 27/01/2006 12:41:41 Note that this is only from my experiances, and when i say pirates i mean me, my friends and the others i talk to, i dont claim to talk for all.Also my term 'pirate' doesnt cover snipers..... TBH, me in a platerax and my friend in a duramaller can tank sentries long enough to kill an industrial between us, with a third ship standing by to scoope loot.Thats it..2 cruisers and an industrial ship is all you need.Of course we use larger ships normally to provide a bigger safety window, but it IS fully possible in cruisers. The only negative impact sentries have upon pirates is forcing us to use more teamwork (gasp MMOG?) to kill a player that moronically plows on solo through lowsec on autopilot in an industrial. Thinking it through, if sentries were removed i would broaden my targets to other vessles but would no longer be forced to gank them. A cargo scanner would become part of me teams equipment and i would ransom combat vessles, or ask industrial vessles to jettison their cargo.With the turrets i do not have time to do these things. In short, all turrets do is limit my commerce raiding to ganking. ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete
Iron Wraith	Posted - 2006.01.27 13:13:00 - [20] i think the turrets are playing a very important role. running gate camps in low sec compared to 0.0 is very different. sure a warp bubble is a real killer, something that would sepperate 0.0 from low sec if the turrets went. but if you look at the ships on both types of gates you can see the difference. take a 0.0 camp. there will be tacklers, insta lockers and gankers. all you need to quickly lock down and vaporise anything that gives them half a second chance to lock. compare this to low sec camp and the pirates have had to "gimp" their ships to make it all work. in 0.0 the camp is more than pvp worthy. its an extreemly efficiant hunting pack capable of tanking down jsut about anything. the low sec camp is very vunerable to pvp because of the steps they have to take to get round the turrets. the snipers have to pile modules into getting high range and use the weak ammo. the tankers have to throw more into their tank and less into what would be their gank. any decent hunting pack that manages to get the drop on a low sec camp is going to rip it to bits. so the turrets are doing a great job. your can travel through low sec safe in the knowlege that if you fly smart you will be safe for the large part. and if you do get taken out by a camp then any friendly hunting packs you know will be able to exact revenge for you. would be kind of cool to see the navy and concord flying though low sec though. without the infinate re-inforcement they would be a fun bit of "ratting" for the pirates and campers . for us runners we could follow the navy through hoping they were going the same way as us. and the campers get to blow the crap out of something thats not gonna give em an ear full of abuse after (sure i dont like pirates, but damnit, its a game built to have em in, you wont catch me helping a pirate but you wont catch me hurling abuse at one either). oh, and the difference between low sec and 0.0 is well defined. had half a war gate camp chase my indy the other day, the wee fairy's gave up the minute i dived into the black abiss . kinda funny cos thats the moment i gritted my teeth and hoped i'd live to see a friendly camp in a few jumps time. damn those warp bubbles and insta lock ceptors! still havent got used to running 0.0 camps Because sometimes you just have to go back to your roots: [2005.02.20 01:08:03] (combat) Your Civilian Light Electron Blaster perfectly strikes Serpentis Smuggler, wrecking for 20.3 damage.
Count Spankulot	Posted - 2006.01.27 14:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Vendrin Originally by: Cvuos At least they make gate campers put in some effort. I'd rather have a chance to fight back then be sniped by a bs 120km away. Wrong, wrong, wrong... If sentry guns were removed, pirates wouldn't HAVE to snipe. In my transport, I would consider a small, fast ship capable of locking you instantly, warp scrambling and webbing you to hell much more of a threat than a battleship sniping from 120km away. Any smart person will know that a sniping battleship (except maybe the rare highly skilled tempest) can't kill most valuable ships before they can warp out, as long as that person is semi smart. A megathron, raven or scorp setup to tank the sentries has always scared me more than a newbie sniper. If you remove sentries then they won't even need to setup to tank them anymore, and ganking even t2 blockade runners alone will become commonplace.
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.01.27 14:36:00 - [22] Sentries range needs increased, damage is fine. If someone wants to tank them all day i dont care, as long as they arnt 180k away, and warp the second anyone heads towards them : /
Commoner	Posted - 2006.01.27 14:42:00 - [23] If you remove sentry guns from 0.1 -> 0.4 you also remove the diffrence between lowsec and nosec space. 1. Ruin the risk/reward aspect. Why would anyone bother to venture into 0.4 when you can make more money mining omber in 0.5? (jaspet atm, is a joke) 2. Would also make even less people goto lowsec, unless what happens it that all the pirate corps move in and the wealthy prey stay out of this territory. My .2!
Wanoah	Posted - 2006.01.27 14:54:00 - [24] If you removed the sentries, you would have to replace them with some kind of NPC response. I'd favour some kind of heavy-handed local Navy response personally. Have a random element to it, and make it more likely in 0.4 than 0.1. Have the response escalate a bit. Pirates either get driven off or get extra loot. Anti-pirates can engage without considering the sentries (not all pirates are -5 and/or flagged). We get more fun and varied PvP. Everyone's a winner. Barriers - An Eve Novel
Harisdrop	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:39:00 - [25] Edited by: Harisdrop on 27/01/2006 15:41:33 How about changing Jump gates. There should be a POS-shield type sphere. In 1.0 the bubble will be 15km from the gate soo no wars would be waged at a 1.0 gate. In 0.1 you would get a 2,500m from the gate bubble where you cant lock or be locked. I think this is probally the best solution to saving lag at gates. I believe wars and combat should not be held at gates where lag from soo many game mechanics is increased. In 0.0 there is no sphere of influence unless.... You have soveriengty. If you have soveriengty your pilots can lock anyone within the bubble and while your in the bubble. and no one else can. The soveriengty bubbles size depends on how many systems that are tied together thru jump gates. Soo if a whole constellation has a Soveriengty flag you might get 15km bubble. -------------------------- I have big balls of Plasma coming out of my guns.
John Blackthorn	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:47:00 - [26] What I hate is that if you jump through the gate, somone starts shooting at you. There outside the sentury range. And if you do anything to defend yourself the sentry's destroy you. I'd love to be able to use defensive module on a sniper such as a sensor dampner, trackign disrupotrs etc etc.
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:52:00 - [27] If someone fires on you, you can fire back and not be destroyed, anywhere in eve, and at any time.
ToxicFire	Posted - 2006.01.27 15:55:00 - [28] firstly a few mis conceptions, senties at gates are design to reduce minimise pvp at gates not just deal with stupid indy pilots that can't check the map, 0.0 systems are for pvp at gates, the 0.1-0.4 was just to allow intermediate pvp away from gates, such as in roid belts at planets etc. secondly look at it this way sentries were designed with T1 tech, since then the technology base has exapanded in eve and the setntries havent been brought upto spec, which frankly empires would have the latest tech on their sentries.... So in reality sentries don't need to be removed, just upgraded to T2 sentries :)
Mangold	Posted - 2006.01.27 17:26:00 - [29] Sentrys are working just as they should. Read the post made by Viceroy. It sums it all up.
000Hunter000	Posted - 2006.01.27 18:19:00 - [30] HM like someone posted, make sentries less acurate and less range the lower u get. So in 0.4 u would need to tank them and wouldn't last very long, but the lower u get the easier it gets to tank and/or outrange them. hell perhaps make 0.1 even more dangerous then it is now, cause lets face it, de differences are a bit silly and theres not much difference between 0.4 and 0.1 except the belt rats.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.01.27 18:37:00 - [31] i'm happy with sentries as they are - they allow the defenders a small advantage, prevent tackling frigs at gates, and help differentiate 0.0 from empire They do not help dumb pilots survive, and they don't get near stopping gatecamping the only change i would make would be to factor the security status into their power - make them the same in 0.3 (but with a slightly longer range), stronger with longer range in 0.4, weaker with the same range in 0.2 and weaker (with about a 50km radius round the gate range) in 0.1 i think a BS with a good tank should be able to tank a 0.1 sentry forever, but a crusier would only be able to last long enough to gank an indy or two on the other hand, no normal BS should really be able to tank a 0.4 gate for more than about 90seconds (ofc, if you want to use deadspace gear, you could, but who wants to risk that to camp a 0.4 gate forever)
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.01.27 18:37:00 - [32] Lower the security the more damaging sentry needs to be. They're out dated. It's proven they're uneffective in almost all cases. Realisticly speaking they are put there to serve as some sort of protection. By now concord should realize those ships/drones whatever sentry guns are should be upgraded or added more ships in diffrent locations. Pirating is to easy. Please make it harder.
TheKiller8	Posted - 2006.02.12 22:38:00 - [33] Sentries are fine. If you'd remove sentries from low sec you'd be effectively turning every single low sec region into Syndicate with gate camps at entry systems and everything. I do think scaling sentries to sec rate would be a decent idea. Or better yet adding a weak version of faction police without warp scramblers that may or may not come to the rescue (higher chance and bigger force in 0.4, but lower in 0.1). Would keep snipers busy anyway.. .: Click 2 See My Flash Animations :.
Selim	Posted - 2006.02.12 22:49:00 - [34] Edited by: Selim on 12/02/2006 22:49:43 I can't wait till the day that they remove sentries so gate campers can actually use something besides battleships. Decreased security level should mean something about concord response: Basically, the lower the security level, the slower and weaker the concord response gets. So 1.0 concord would be all over your ass with battleships almost instantly, 0.5 concord would arrive quickly with cruisers and maybe a battleship, reinforcing that 0.5 is still safe space. But then 0.4 Concord would take maybe 30-45 seconds to arrive with only a couple cruisers and a frigate. 0.1 would be like 10 minutes or something until the brave patrol of one or two concord frigates arrive.
Nuri Aderynn	Posted - 2006.02.12 22:53:00 - [35] I'm in favour of a range boost, and a tracking nerf. Range to discourage sniping, tracking to allow good pilots in frigates to dodge sentry fire long enough to do what they need to do. Decrease the number and effectiveness of sentries as sec status lowers. Penalties on pirates affect anti-pirates also. There've been a few occasions where I would have attacked a pirate except he's over -5 and I can't possibly take the sentry fire. I'm open to any piracy boost if it can help PVPers in general, especially newbies who don't have uber-BS tanking skills.
Tenacha Khan	Posted - 2006.02.12 23:01:00 - [36] I think they are fine just the way they are I pwnt Wrangler - Tenacha
Trepkos	Posted - 2006.02.12 23:18:00 - [37] Originally by: Cypherous nothing these days can tank sentries indefinately Really.... You base this on what? Because I can.... -------- Recruitment
Lifewire	Posted - 2006.02.12 23:54:00 - [38] If sniping is soooo problematic, how about to reduce sentry guns range to 50 km. This would end sniping. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2006.02.13 00:33:00 - [39] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 13/02/2006 00:33:52 You know maybe it wouldn't be such a bad Idea to just remove sents and put in a delayed-avoidable concord responce (to just the location of the gate after a good 30-50 seconds).
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2006.02.13 00:55:00 - [40] Sentries add some predicatability to pirate setups and are a huge advantage to anyone fighting them. If I'm not mistaken, sentries are deal even damage across the board, so anyone tanking them would try to get the best overall resists they can, but this still leaves holes in their tanks that they can't patch over with an oppturnity cost in another resist. Also, vs. sniping, I'd much rather deal with a ranged setup, then a close range one, because as was mentioned, they aren't going to do as much damage. Though on the other hand, a sniper setup out of the range of guns can afford to fit damage mods...

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