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Jonas Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.10.14 19:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
I having been running L4 Caldari Navy Security missions in my Drake since coming back to EVE in June. Right now, my L4 Drake is doing about 350 DPS and can handle most any L4 without too much trouble. In an effort to maximize my ISK/hour, I found a system with a couple L4 agents that I can then run more than one mission at a time. Since speed is the key factor here, I am wondering when I should upgrade to a Raven (or some other ship).
I have nearly 5M SP in Missiles right now, but would need to train Cruise Missiles a bit more to probably maximize the DPS on a Raven.
So really I have two questions:
1. When do I upgrade from my Drake?
2. Is a Raven the natural progression, or should I work towards another multiple-L4 mission running ship?
Note: I am a soloing running carebear 98% of the time.
Thanks in advance. |
Thea Arsoniztik
Red Tides
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 20:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd say get yourself a navy raven if you are focused on missiles. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
413
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 20:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'd take a look at the SNI if you're used to a drake. The drake playstyle and raven playstle are lightyears apart.
SNI should be active tanked too, but it is a smaller change overall than a drake>raven move. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
95
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 20:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
The general progression is: Caracal > Drake > Raven > (CNR || SNI || Golem)
Some people would include the Rattlesnake in that last bunch but its not really a missile boat. |
Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion
LEX LEGIONEM
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 21:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Your next step is to move up into battship sized hulls. As stated above a standard raven is your next step followed by a CNR or similar pirate hull. You could also look into Muraders as the effective DPS and tank are significantly increased.
The ship progression up that chain takes a bit. The post below I dropped into another thread, but it's applicable.
On a side note: I really should put together a mission progression guide and see if I can get it sticky.
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |
Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion
LEX LEGIONEM
29
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 21:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mission running efficiency honestly comes down to your ship and the grinding pace your willing to set.
Personally I find a single station with at least two level IV agents and a storyline agent within 1-2 jumps.
I accept and run every mission (two at a time) that isn't an anti Faction mission (those I decline). I will wait out a timer if I get offered too many anti-empire-faction missions. This rarely happens to me for the most part.
Mathmatically speaking, there is an old post somewhere that explains as long as you complete your faction storyline missions, you can cherry pick missions and decline the rest. It takes some 20 or 30 declines to cancel out a single storyline mission (with the empire faction).
Depending on how much effort I want to put into it, I will run 2 to 4 missions at a time, then come back in a nautics and salvage / loot everything. If you haul your stuff to market you will find the loot is JUST as valuable as all the rat bounties you shot out and takes less time, increasing your isk gain (but slowing your LP gain).
Actual Mission efficiency comes down to your hull, your skills, and how you fly.
Move into a battleship hull.
Are you AB fit at the very least?
Are you using long range weapon systems? (This is a BIG point for quickly grinding missions). You should be able to aply damage at 35km - 60km at a minimum for fast blitzing.
DPS comparison chart =
600+++ DPS tank - 350 or less DPS - You are a motionless brick tanker (dominix / drake). Slow mission running.
500 DPS tank - 450 DPS - Minimum needed to actually accomplish mission running.
450 DPS tank - 550 DPS - You finally loaded a damage enhancer. Good for you!
400 DPS tank - 600 DPS - Sweet, that's two damage enhancers... Almost there
400 DPS tank - 650 DPS - Ahh, you remembered you damage mod implants! - Great spot to be if you don't have elite skills.
350 DPS tank - 700-800 DPS - This is a "standard" high efficiency Level IV mission setup. Remember to watch you NPC agro.
250-300 DPS tank - 900-1100 DPS
----- Advanced mission running. Your paranoid about loosing your ship (You took your DCU off to get that last mag stab / tracking enhancer on there). Your are in a faction pirate BS and you all ready know exactly witch missions your gonna 'dip' into structure on when shooting out rats. Your faction fit with +5% implants, and your entire setup costs 2-8 billion isk.
A good way to check efficiency is watch your bounty kick outs. Different mission rythm's will of course effect you payouts, but here are some good rules of thumb.
2 million a tick (20 minutes) - go back to blitzing level III's. Your DPS isn't high enough.
4 million a tick - Getting there. You are beating out level III's at this point.
6-8 million a tick - Standard optimization. 800 DPS output
9-13 million a tick - very few level IV missions have this available, but it IS possible if DPS is over 900. You /can/ easily manage this in null sec havens and sanctums.
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
905
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 21:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
One of the new methods all the kids are using these days is to have a Raven (or domi) and MJD 100K away from the mission and snipe. It requires less tank against everything but Guristas. Its better to have t2 CM's than not, but better to have cruise missiles than Heavy Missiles IMHO.
Eve is Real |
Jonas Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 22:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon -- very informative reply! A few follow-up questions if you have a minute...
Are you AB fit at the very least?
>> Yes, 10MN Afterburner II
Are you using long range weapon systems? (This is a BIG point for quickly grinding missions). You should be able to aply damage at 35km - 60km at a minimum for fast blitzing.
>> Maximum range on my Heavy Missile Launchers II is 54km with ammo
450 DPS tank - 550 DPS - You finally loaded a damage enhancer. Good for you!
>> What sort of damage enhancer are we talking about for this setup?
My current setup on my Drake is roughly this (swapping out EM/Therm/Kin mids based on mission damage types):
Low "Ballistic Control System II"
Low "Ballistic Control System II"
Low "Ballistic Control System II"
Low "Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I"
Mid "Large Shield Extender II"
Mid "Large Shield Extender II"
Mid "Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II"
Mid "Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II"
Mid "Adaptive Invulnerability Field II"
Mid "10MN Afterburner II"
High "Heavy Missile Launcher II" x 6
Rig "Medium Core Defense Field Purger I" x 3
Drones "Hornet II" x 5
Thanks again. |
Rexxorr
Zero Corp Tax2
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 23:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
When you can fit mostly T2 (tank/light drones) items on your battleship then you should be fine, Faction and meta 4 launchers will get the job done,T2 launchers are nice when you get there.
When you get a new battleship, over tank it until you get the feel for how it flys. SNI is a good starter battleship, you can fit a massive tank and it is very forgiving. Moving from drake passive tank to battleship active tank can be an issue, learn how to work the active burst tank and the isk will flow. When you feel good with the SNI just sell it (you wont lose much isk if any), and get the CNR.
Golem is your end game pve caldari battleship. Marauders are getting a massive buff next patch and they will be unequaled in pve.
GL |
Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion
LEX LEGIONEM
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 00:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
@ Jonas,
The 500 Tank - 650 DPS is meant for a battleship with one or two Ballistic Control Systems. It also represents a solid skill set in damage support skills.
You are still using a Drake. Which /can/ slow boat level IV's. With the smaller sig radius and movement you effective DPS is near the 500-600 mark. Your hurting in the DPS department (which is where moving up to a battleship hull comes into play).
Your next move is to up ship once your battleship skill hits IV.
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam
Disturbed Acquaintance
919
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 00:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
there is another option as well which utilises your HML skills from the drake
the tengu
it's not the perfect choice for the isk/hr centric mindset, but it will get the job done (quite easily)
it doesn't need to be a loot pi+¦ata either, a mostly Tech 2 fitting is relatively cheap and just as effective.
~660 dps means your a little slower at killing things than a BS
~600 m/s means you don't exactly slowboat to the next gate
n.b.
at some point in the near future T3's are going to be 'rebalanced'
so it's something you need to consider as a 'will it still be worth training for' thing. |
Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars
Fatal Ascension
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 02:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jonas Sotken wrote:I having been running L4 Caldari Navy Security missions in my Drake since coming back to EVE in June. Right now, my L4 Drake is doing about 350 DPS and can handle most any L4 without too much trouble. In an effort to maximize my ISK/hour, I found a system with a couple L4 agents that I can then run more than one mission at a time. Since speed is the key factor here, I am wondering when I should upgrade to a Raven (or some other ship).
First Off, Caldari ships are the worst for Speed, isk/hour. The are the best for negating Damage and being easy to use.
Quote:my L4 Drake is doing about 350 DPS and can handle most any L4 without too much trouble.
At 350 DPS, it is taking you Ages to run a mission. That sounds like WAY to much trouble to me.
To Break it down. Take your 350 DPS from your drake. Now consider that a BS rat is tanking 200 DPS. That mean you are effectively doing 150 DPS to that Battleship. On the other hand, A Navy Raven with t2 cruise launchers and faction ammo and a full set of +5 missile hardwires and 4x faction BCS is going to give you around 825 DPS. The Damage application on cruise missiles is not the greatest but atleast against BS, you are hitting hard and doing an effective 675 DPS. This is killing the Rats over 4 times faster than your drake.
Now lets say that Speed really is the key factor here. While it's not the thing you just go buy and pimp out overnight but a Max DPS Machariel Is going to give you 1175 DPS and with it's high Rate of Fire, instant damage and guns split in two groups, you are typically killing a frigate or destroyer every 1.5 seconds. So in the time it takes a Raven to launch one volley and be ready for the second, the mach can kill 5 frigates.
It's not long before you are left with just Battleships on the field at that rate. In which case, you are doing an effective 975 DPS after taking the rat's tank into consideration. Getting there is not easy and certainly not cheap. You could even be opting to fit to the point the suicide gankers start eye-balling you. You can get it to the point where even the longest and hardest Level 4 missions can be easily run in less than 30 minutes.
I always recommend wedging a MJD for emergency. It could mean a lower tank but it guarantees you have the ability to get out of any PVE situation.
This is really just written to give you a couple of examples to know what you can potentially expect and understand what you can be working toward. There are many great options to go with. For the cheaper ship, The Dominix really can go the distance. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
209
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 03:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Scorpion Navy Issue.
A little less DPS v.s. Raven.
A lot more tank v.s. Raven. |
Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars
Fatal Ascension
39
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 03:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:Scorpion Navy Issue.
A little less DPS v.s. Raven.
A lot more tank v.s. Raven.
As much as I love the Scorpion Navy Issue for it's tank, I would not recommend it over the Navy Raven for missions. While it does basically the same DPS on Paper, it's not so hot in practice. Even if you use target painters to make up for the lack of explosion radius bonus the Raven has, the Rate of Fire Bonus is the Scorpion's downfall. It leaves you spending an awful lot of time reloading. That drove me mad when using one for null sec complexes.
The slower Rate of Fire and more launchers makes the Raven better suited for having two missile groups as well as nearly 70% more Volley Damage. This gives you a better chance of actually hitting smaller targets in a single Volley where the Navy scorp can easily require 2-3 volleys.
It's really a matter of player mindset. Prioritize Damage or Prioritize Tank. |
Silmas Feanarius
Ego One
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 12:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Patrice Macmahon wrote:6-8 million a tick - Standard optimization. 800 DPS output
9-13 million a tick - very few level IV missions have this available, but it IS possible if DPS is over 900. You /can/ easily manage this in null sec havens and sanctums.
What does this mean. I'm in a CNR, good tanking skills, below average drone skills and good missiles but not T2 cruises (bad bad). Tank is crap due to cap issues, but I can apply 500 DPS to 85km (targeting range!) and 620 to 45km, w/ drones. I consistently reap 8 to 10M/tick not including mission payouts. I don't salvage.
With 800 DPS I could probably do 12-16M/tick (we'll see with T2 cruises). |
Good Posting
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 13:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Raven+Cruise+MJD if a very efficient boat for its price and will get the job done. A faction fitted Navy Raven isn't much better and you know what will happen eventually if you run missions in crowded/popular systems. It's up to you.
|
Batelle
RisingSuns
190
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 13:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jonas Sotken wrote:L4 Drake
Yep, its time to upgrade.
Fighting is Magic |
Darwin Allessandro
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 14:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
As a player with (probably) fewer total skill points, it makes me kinda sad that you spent all that time training for tech 2 heavy missile launchers, when you could have almost trained tech 2 cruise missiles in that time. Heavy missiles aren't a useful weapon system outside PvE, so its a huge waste to train them to tech 2 when you could have upgraded.
I graduated to a battleship as soon as I had tech 2 shield tanking skills, and even with terrible missile support skills, I was putting out 450 dps with a MJD kiting Raven. For probably a fifth of the SP you invested into your drake. Now I'm doing almost 600 dps with a younger character than yours in a Navy Scorpion, and still have a ways to go before I'm putting out max dps. And I don't even have to refit hardeners between missions even with target painters, which I prefer to the slightly higher dps of a Navy Raven, which seems to be the popular go-to missile ship.
I think its pretty sad that so many people encourage newbies to stick to level three missions for so long. Its not hard to out dps a drake in a battleship at 2-3 million skillpoints. Thats absolutely nothing. By the time a semi-casual player hits enough standings with a mission corp to run level 4s, they should be able to run them at a semi-decent pace.
Upgrade now, stop putting SP into your drake. I promise you won't be disappointed. |
Jonas Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 15:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Darwin Allessandro wrote:As a player with (probably) fewer total skill points, it makes me kinda sad that you spent all that time training for tech 2 heavy missile launchers, when you could have almost trained tech 2 cruise missiles in that time. Heavy missiles aren't a useful weapon system outside PvE, so its a huge waste to train them to tech 2 when you could have upgraded. I graduated to a battleship as soon as I had tech 2 shield tanking skills, and even with terrible missile support skills, I was putting out 450 dps with a MJD kiting Raven. For probably a fifth of the SP you invested into your drake. Now I'm doing almost 600 dps with a younger character than yours in a Navy Scorpion, and still have a ways to go before I'm putting out max dps. And I don't even have to refit hardeners between missions even with target painters, which I prefer to the slightly higher dps of a Navy Raven, which seems to be the popular go-to missile ship. I think its pretty sad that so many people encourage newbies to stick to level three missions for so long. Its not hard to out dps a drake in a battleship at 2-3 million skillpoints. Thats absolutely nothing. By the time a semi-casual player hits enough standings with a mission corp to run level 4s, they should be able to run them at a semi-decent pace. Upgrade now, stop putting SP into your drake. I promise you won't be disappointed.
I don't feel like it has been a wasted time putting SP into my Drake. I've tried really hard to follow the 'fly what you can afford to lose' mantra in EVE and until recently, I haven't been able to afford to lose more than a Drake. A fully fitted T2 Raven is a pretty expensive ship to be able to just jump into without having the ISK to back up any losses.
Thanks for the advice though, this thread has been very helpful! |
Batelle
RisingSuns
191
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 16:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jonas Sotken wrote:
I don't feel like it has been a wasted time putting SP into my Drake.
You are correct. The only thing that possibly could be considered wasted would be heavy missiles 5 + specializations and battlecruisers 5 if you happened to have trained it. Heavy missiles are absolutely not wasted training time as they are the go-to weapon system for the tengu, which is still arguably one of the most useful and versatile ships in the game.
Fighting is Magic |
Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion
LEX LEGIONEM
30
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 17:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Silmas Feanarius wrote: Explain - I do better with a lower dps CNR
I'm going off my personal numbers and generalities that I've seen helping my corp mates get up and running.
I am not a missile user, but I do know that effective DPS out of a missile boat is a little wonky when trying to do a direct comparison to turret baised ships.
The biggest difference probably has to do with your ability to apply optimal damage profile for full damage at 85 KM. You also could be cherry picking your missions. The limiting factor to the isk payout is the number of high bounty BS's in the mission pocket itself.
At a general term, most level IV missions have the rats to push 6-9 million isk in 20 minutes taking into account spawn times and positioning. at 800 DPS against Angel Extraviganza, I regulary hit 18 million isk payouts when I clear the bonus room.
The numbers are a practical number that people can reasonably achieve without bending over backwards.
-á"Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki."-á |
quoOoup
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 23:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
Interesting notes, but some won't fit. To give you an idea of a RNI, here are some stats:
Raven Navy Issue
DPS tank: 758 [EM], 729 [TH], 972 [KIN], 1167 [EX] | eHP ~95.000
DPS gank: 1045 (w/o Drones), 1144 (with small Drones), you could even put out 3 sentries 
CAP: 2m20s
VELOCITY: 441 m/s (with AB)
DMG-Projection: Rigor II, Flare II, 2 x TP (You one-shot everything, but Elite-Ships. BS are down in 2 - 4 salves)
COST: ~2.5B ISK
The tank seems very big, but I have to pay attention with my CAP. I don't give a sh*t on this 'capstable'-mindset. If you are able to run missions with these stats - or similar stats - you won't spend time in salvaging & looting. It becomes a waste of your time. At least you will be able to reach ticks above 20 million. And there will be many times you reach 15+ million. If you cherrypick this way, you won't ever drop below ~15 million. Don't forget the LPs and the rewards.
ISK, ISK, ISK, ... |
Ariel Dawn
F9X
1148
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 08:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Once you're familiar with missiles and L4s, I highly suggest to train for a Machariel. The ship and missioning fit is fairly cheap (total cost of around 1.25b or so) and if you mission in an area that places you against Angel rats often, then the speed at which it completes missions is absurd.
7x 800mm AC II
1x Auto Target System I (+2 targets that you can lock)
1x Deadspace 100mn Afterburner
1x Pith XL Shield Booster (Any letter works)
1x EM Ward Field
2x Invul II
4x Faction Gyro
3x Tracking Enhancer II
3x Cap Rigs (Semi or CCC)
4x Bouncer
5x Hobgoblin
1545 DPS with Hail, 1250 with non-faction standard ammo, 700 m/s. Most missions everything dies before you need to run your shield booster and as soon as the gates unlock you can activate them. Insta-kills frigates/destroyers (split your guns into groups of 2, 2 and 3). The fit is cheap enough that suicide gankers are unlikely to make the return on hull costs that they'd have to spend to pop you as well, plus you move fast enough that quite a # of their shots may miss in the first place. |
quoOoup
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 10:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
It depends on you, whether to choose a Machariel or a RNI. Both have advantages and disadvantages. It depends on 'where are you going for PvE', 'will you fly active or not', etc.
The Machariel is in some cases faster, in other cases slower. If you cherrypick smart with and for the Machariel, maybe you can do some more ISK/h, but really don't start counting beans. Machariel has not the Range, and not this flexibility in the DMGtypes. At least I would say both are equivalent. 
If you have 6 million SP in Missiles just go straight for the Raven Navy Issue. It's a very comfortable ship. Learn CMs V and start your first Missions. I don't see the point, why you shouldn't spend some more skilltime to fly a very, very good ship, but spending much more time to fly a ship, that is not much better. |
Ariel Dawn
F9X
1148
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 14:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
While some things are preferential, the Machariel does have selection of damage type due to autocannons, as well as 70km range with instant damage (no travel time like missiles). RNI is a good boat, but it's quite a bit slower at least for blitzing missions. |
Jonas Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 17:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Looks like my game plan is train the few remaining skills needed for BS IV, Cruise V and then purchase the RNI. I'll probably also start bringing my alt over in a Noctis and salvage rooms as soon as I clear them to increase the ISK/hour too.
Thanks for all the advice! |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
353
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jonas Sotken wrote:I have nearly 5M SP in Missiles right now, but would need to train Cruise Missiles a bit more to probably maximize the DPS on a Raven.
I'm pretty sure you have more SP in missiles than I had sp when I started lv4s.
You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
353
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rexxorr wrote:When you can fit mostly T2 (tank/light drones) items on your battleship then you should be fine, Faction and meta 4 launchers will get the job done,T2 launchers are nice when you get there.
When you get a new battleship, over tank it until you get the feel for how it flys. SNI is a good starter battleship, you can fit a massive tank and it is very forgiving. Moving from drake passive tank to battleship active tank can be an issue, learn how to work the active burst tank and the isk will flow. When you feel good with the SNI just sell it (you wont lose much isk if any), and get the CNR.
Golem is your end game pve caldari battleship. Marauders are getting a massive buff next patch and they will be unequaled in pve.
GL
tbh the best buff for the golem is the 5s cycle time on target painters. 
You can trust me, I have a monocole |
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