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Beseb
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Posted - 2003.08.28 18:03:00 -
[1]
After reviewing the CSM log from last night, caught this little gem -
Quote:
TomB > The ability to warp on top of the gate will also be prevented.
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Quote:
Rocket Bob > Is warping to a bookmark that is set past the gate considered an abuse?
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Rocket Bob > ..just trying to claify "warping on top of a jumpgate"
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Quote:
TomB > "warping on top of a jumpgate" = warping to a bookmark
TomB > we will do this by not allowing anyone to get closer than X km away from a jumpgate
TomB > incoming from warp I mean
This doesn't affect me personally too badly as I don't often use bookmarks, but I know lots and lots and lots of people that do.
I've got to say this is a bad idea to the extreme for a number of very important reasons.
Firstly, as a general rule, anything that increases downtime in a game like this is a bad idea. Alot of us grumbled with the no MWD/AB in warp nerf, but have more-or-less accepted it. However, because of the ramifications of this change, I highly doubt many will take this lightly.
The second glaring issue is obviously one of gate campers. This change effectively makes blockades un-runnable. I know you commented that MWD could still get you through, but that is a naive statement. If you warp in at 20k to the gate, you might have a 20% chance of making it with MWD equipped, anything further and it's almost guarenteed you will fail.
Now, I fully appreciate the arguement that engaging in combat can be very difficult because of immunity timers etc. This is obviously good and bad depending on your viewpoint. For the prey it's good, for the hunter it's bad. Simple. But this no BM idea is NOT a solution to this problem. Trying to present this as a solution just creates more problems and that's bad for all of us.
A game altering mechanic such as this effects every profession in the game. Please consider the impact on all of these players before you ruin their game (and believe me, many players game will be ruined). For instance, one of our corp mates has spent some 80 hours or more setting up bookmarks through our frequently traveled routes. You really want to erase all of that hard work? Do you think he is the only one?
Don't be too hasty on this TomB. Please.
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Iece Quaan
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Posted - 2003.08.28 18:12:00 -
[2]
I don't think it will be fun for blockade runners.
But, being a manufacturer, i'm telling you.. ships have got to be destroyed. They HAVE to. The market is stagnant as it is. There has to be some sort of mechanism to get some movement into the market, and I don't favor item decay.
I don't want to get ganked any more than you do, and the next time it happens to me.. i'll be ****ed. But the economy has to move, and to do that, items have to come into circulation.
It also means that players can get into escort duty, pirates can make some money, etc..
now if we can just fix the trade market.. =)
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.08.28 18:12:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jarjar on 28/08/2003 18:13:09 Agreed. I know lots of miners/haulers, bounty hunters, regular "travellers", everyone is using bookmarks like this.
Pirating was probably too hard, same thing as with bounty hunting. Combine the MWD-"nerf" + not jumping with bookmarks, that makes most blockades un-runnable instead of the opposite, which is the situation we're in right now.
Also, combine that with the fact that people also want warping in the invulnerability time (10 sec) impossible so you cannot simply warp out at a sign of trouble, AND that warp scramblers may be going to cancel an ongoing warp... Oh my.
Note: I'm not a carebear, no need to mention it. I partly agree with you pirates out there, however it should be possible to run blockades if you know how to.
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Hexate
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Posted - 2003.08.28 18:36:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Hexate on 28/08/2003 18:38:36 I understand the need to make ppl have to stand and fight at gates. I completely understand the need to destroy items in-game to help the market along.
But there's a (perhaps) unintended consequence of this that has little to do with the lack of combat.
If I've got a regular route that I need to haul in a bestower, it can take HOURS of extremely un-fun time to go the 15 or 20 jumps I need to on this route. If I don't use bookmarks, I wind up an average of 35km away from each gate, with speed between 100 ms and 200, depending on whether I've got ABs running.
I suspect my deep-0.0 mining corp will probably just quit mining in deep-0.0 if this change affects us the way I suspect it will. Some of us with hybrid characters can go back to fighting. Others will likely just quit.
So before anyone accuses me of being a whining carebear, let me reiterate: I understand the need behind the change. I just think this particular change is misguided. There ought to be a better way.
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Exel Aurora
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Posted - 2003.08.28 18:44:00 -
[5]
I totally agree with you Hexate. The only more job tedious and boring than mining is hauling. Now hauling is made even more longer with this new change. I feel bad for those haulers on the multi-jump mining operations.
Well on the flipside, this does nerf trading. Takes longer to do run the trade routes now.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2003.08.28 18:45:00 -
[6]
A lot of pirates seem to be whining about how people just bookmark through their blockades, but the only reason this happens is because they blockade the same systems all day, every day. Everyone and their grandmother has bookmarks through PF and FD now, but still the pirates sit there trying to camp the gates. Why not move around some?
I see some pirates calling people carebears when they ask for CCP to fix problems that can be fixed by players ingame, this is no different. If you don't want people to bookmark past your blockades, then blockade other systems, don't expect CCP to do something about it.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.28 18:49:00 -
[7]
With bookmarks, a blockade has no chance to stop you whatsoever :)
Without it - maybe they do, and maybe you have a chance to get through.
There are lots and lots of ways to get past blockades of just one ship.
Even getting past two is doable.
Anymore and you may need to get a posse together and chase the people out.
One solution to the increased travel time this causes is to somehow allow your ab/mw to be set so that they turn out automatically when you come in and out of warp.
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Gildon
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Posted - 2003.08.28 18:50:00 -
[8]
People, I don't like this
BUT
the only way this is acceptable is to allow US to SET our predetermined jump from gate KM.
Example, in map settings you can set whatever 'distance' you want from gate (50km 100km or even 100KM beyond gate etc.)
How about real enjoyable solutions instead of harsh ones?
Gil
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Beseb
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Posted - 2003.08.28 18:59:00 -
[9]
Fester, in another thread had a rather good idea on this warp to point issue. Have a radio button with 2 option - fast warp (warps to within 20k of target) and safe warp (warps 160k from target). Autopilot and all warping would check against this value.
This is a more elegant solution than having to choose warp range every time you warp as it addresses auto pilot as well.
This solution still gives blockaders real power and gives travellers some options.
It still doesn't address the horrible time sink of travelling and the fact that a good many players have taken the time to relieve this burden by creating bookmarks.
Perhaps the Jump Drive will be the solution to this which will of course have the counter measure of Jump Drive scrambler...
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.28 19:05:00 -
[10]
Beseb: that could work. You could even get rid of the warp in immunity timers with that plan.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.08.28 19:51:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 28/08/2003 19:52:22 Coming out of warp gives you a 10 second period of invulnerability. Combined this was another 2 seconds to target you and the time taken to activate the appropriate modules (webifier etc) and you prolly have 14-15 seconds of travel time.
If you BADLY want to get through a blockade you just need to equip 2 MWD's with overdrives.
Of course, TomB did not specifiy exactly what distance X would be - anything more than 25km and we'll see a rise of the carebears like no other.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.08.28 19:52:00 -
[12]
Quote: Fester, in another thread had a rather good idea on this warp to point issue. Have a radio button with 2 option - fast warp (warps to within 20k of target) and safe warp (warps 160k from target). Autopilot and all warping would check against this value.
This is a more elegant solution than having to choose warp range every time you warp as it addresses auto pilot as well.
This solution still gives blockaders real power and gives travellers some options.
It still doesn't address the horrible time sink of travelling and the fact that a good many players have taken the time to relieve this burden by creating bookmarks.
Perhaps the Jump Drive will be the solution to this which will of course have the counter measure of Jump Drive scrambler...
that option would be lovely for anyone wanting to chase off a blockade too.
I like it - it's an idea we've heard an awful lot but it's never been asked in CSM.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.08.28 19:53:00 -
[13]
Quote: Beseb: that could work. You could even get rid of the warp in immunity timers with that plan.
It's not impossible to camp at warp-in spots if the values are preset - like 20, 25, 50, 75, 100km. Probably lots of trouble though.
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Edward Preble
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Posted - 2003.08.28 20:02:00 -
[14]
As a military commander who provides security to several different regions, I have to say that I'm strongly in favor of this sort of changes (as well as some of the amendments people have put forward). Hauling is a pain--bit remember that deployables like refineries will be out there, and it's *deep* space mining for a reason (I know I haul for it, without BM's).
But I've had too many pirates who will come into a system, hit people at belts, nail miners and indies, and then avoid the Naval blockade because they don't want to fight actual gunships--and just escape with a bookmark. This game is meant to be PVP outside Empire space, so I think this sort of change is worthwhile. Furthermore, it makes it possible to *RUN* blockades, as opposed to just jumping past them.
Edward Preble Coalition of Free Stars
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Tibor Ferenc
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Posted - 2003.08.28 20:15:00 -
[15]
What EVE needs is people willing to put there hands into there pockets and pay a few corps a decent ammout of isk to protect various areas. These corps cwould be specialist fighters not the weekend warriors that some alliances gets together from time to time but a proffessional group of fighters. If this has the knock on effect of bumping up the price of goods then so be it. ATM it is impossible to make money as a good guy fighter and it will take the community to do it. Dont just sit there on the forums *****ing about pirates and how you cant go about your business. Either go get them yourself or pay a corp to do so. Think about it if 30 corps that opperate in 1 area gave 5 million a week to a group of security guards it would not effect the corp wallet too much but would ensure there safty and save them isk in the long run. USE YOUR BRAINS.
TF. The LBC
(sorry if im ranting) http://mmogcenter.com/tiborsig.jpg
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Saladin
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Posted - 2003.08.28 20:22:00 -
[16]
Maybe there can be some middle ground on this issue. Warping on top of a gate using a bookmark or otherwise should only be an issue in non-empire space. With sentry guns and the police presence at the gates, PvP at those gates is a moot point (unless there is corp war). So if bookmarks or warping on top of gates could be nerfed only in non-empire space, I think that would be a better solution.
An in-game explaination would be to say that gates outside of empire space have fallen into a state of disrepair and have begun leaking radiation that destabilizes the ship's warp core, preventing ships from being able to warp in a distance closer than *** km. --------------------------- (c) Copyright Saladin, 2005. Any editing of this post by a third party will be in violation United States Internet Copyright law 46525 of 2003. |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.08.28 20:38:00 -
[17]
Quote: This doesn't affect me personally too badly as I don't often use bookmarks, but I know lots and lots and lots of people that do.
I've got to say this is a bad idea to the extreme for a number of very important reasons.
Firstly, as a general rule, anything that increases downtime in a game like this is a bad idea. Alot of us grumbled with the no MWD/AB in warp nerf, but have more-or-less accepted it. However, because of the ramifications of this change, I highly doubt many will take this lightly.
The second glaring issue is obviously one of gate campers. This change effectively makes blockades un-runnable. I know you commented that MWD could still get you through, but that is a naive statement. If you warp in at 20k to the gate, you might have a 20% chance of making it with MWD equipped, anything further and it's almost guarenteed you will fail.
Now, I fully appreciate the arguement that engaging in combat can be very difficult because of immunity timers etc. This is obviously good and bad depending on your viewpoint. For the prey it's good, for the hunter it's bad. Simple. But this no BM idea is NOT a solution to this problem. Trying to present this as a solution just creates more problems and that's bad for all of us.
A game altering mechanic such as this effects every profession in the game. Please consider the impact on all of these players before you ruin their game (and believe me, many players game will be ruined). For instance, one of our corp mates has spent some 80 hours or more setting up bookmarks through our frequently traveled routes. You really want to erase all of that hard work? Do you think he is the only one?
Don't be too hasty on this TomB. Please.
Every time they implement a NECESSARY change like this one certainly is, people will be harmed. It is not preventable. But this situation is 100% needed because you SHOULD NOT be able to run blockades in this fashion. If you can 100% avoid pirates 100% of the time, what are pirates for? What should they do? It is being implemented for EXACTLY the same reason the MWD nerf was implemented. To make sure that the risk of going to low sec zones that is supposedly there from PC pirates ACTUALLY EXISTS and you can't get around the risk with cheap bookmarks.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2003.08.28 21:06:00 -
[18]
Ok here's my perspective. I have been in an indy since week two of release.
Through training and many hours hunting NPCs I have got good modules which allow me to speed towards a gate at about 1115 with about 5112 hold available.
However a little math:
Acceleration normally is impulse speed out of warp to top speed is about 20-25 seconds for most ships.
Top speed 1115 - impulse speed 188 = 927
Take speed out of warp to top speed number and average it out over time required to achieve top speed and we get an average of 41.2 m/s of acceleration.
I know TomB said X from gate but let's play with examples:
I warp to 20k from gate (assuming zero network lag) I can travel 3733m before immunity wears off.
Assuming reasonable skill set or f90 on a pirate a 3 second lock time.
I can travel 5657m in 13 seconds total.
Depending on the gate I am either dead or alive. 14k gallente gate I live unless someone beats the 3 sec lock time (which is doable >1 is possible) or if one volley destroy my ship (also possible)
11k amarr gate and I am dead.
My skill set Nav 4 / AB 4 / Fuel Conv 4 / Aceel control 4.
My mods 4 x LiF (currently best AB), 2 x local hull conv nanofibre (21 speed each) (also best of it's kind).
I think my setup is while although possible is on the higher end of average. Most people will have slower load outs.
Escort business???
1) we are taught to trust no one so this escort presumably comes from within our corp.
2) For every 1 pirate 1 escort must be provided. So that on average 2 escorts will be required.
3) More math:
'new' standard mining op (anything not in same sector as station) 1 x indy, 1 x miner, 1 x in-belt NPC killer, 2 x escort. That's 5 ships to keep 1 guy mining.
The current mining op would have 2 x escort actually mining.
So as one can clearly see for a smallish op it would essentially cut mining to a 1/3 of what it is now to maintain a similar level of security.
IF there were more than two pirates then a 5 man mining op would have to stay in sector with a station.
In fact if anyone is EVER caught in a dead end sector against even slightly superior odds and they don't have access to backup then they simply have to log for the night.
Personally I have setup hundreds of BMs that would become obsolete. I would say I have dedicated about 100+ hours to BMs in this game all of which would have just been a waste of my time.
So unless this idea is a way to reduce network lag by getting people to log off then it is excellent.
If I am forced to take an escort with me wherever I go then I don't want to play the game. Because I, like about 3/4 of the popualtion of Eve spends time solo.
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Beseb
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Posted - 2003.08.28 21:18:00 -
[19]
Cao, pirating is one profession which will be benefitted by this. That's fine, but how many does it harm?
As a pirate, you don't travel for a living, as a trader you do, as a hauler you do, as an explorer you do, etc, etc.
If you had to travel 100+ hops a day, everyday, my guess is you'd change your tune. Bookmarks aren't just about avoiding blockades.
A good solution has to benefit the majority while harming the least. Does this change do that? I think not. Let's have CCP put some real thought to this one instead of this patch work approach. Many good ideas have already been put forward by the community.
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Noctoz
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Posted - 2003.08.28 21:35:00 -
[20]
As clearly stated in the CSM log they will make sure there are other ways to go through blockades. Those will not be foolproof but for gods sake you should not be able to go alone with a industrial ship through a blockade with several battleship. If you want to go trading in 0.0 space then get some escorts!! 0.0 is NOT, I repeat NOT, supposed to be safe. ------------------ NoctoZ Black Reign Curse Alliance |
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Adrenalin
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Posted - 2003.08.28 21:38:00 -
[21]
Another bad bad choice by CCP. MWD nerf for the 2nd time was bad enough as it slowed down the game. This just adds even more tedium.
Total crap
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Karif
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Posted - 2003.08.28 21:45:00 -
[22]
This better include the removal of the ability to bookmark 'empty space'. =============================== Deception + Information + Skill |
Fusco T
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Posted - 2003.08.28 21:52:00 -
[23]
""If you want to go trading in 0.0 space then get some escorts!!""
For every escort added to the "trade" route is another divisor of the net profit.
Let's say that myself and my 4 friends could make about 40mil in a long evening of mining bistot.
If escorts are to be the only method of protection and even that being questionable then like hematic said above that 40 mil would turn into 13.3mil. More money can be made mining kernite in empire space. Fact.
So while although I appreciate risk vs reward. This new "change" suggests that I risk 4 million in ship/mods/clone for every 3 million in ore I carry (my max).
So that is a fair risk vs. reward scenario to you?
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Raffer Rush
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Posted - 2003.08.28 22:20:00 -
[24]
If they decide to remove that option they should put in a new "bookmark navigation" skill, let's say it has to be trained to lvl 4 with navigation at lvl 5 as secondary in order to make and use a bookmark 18km behind a jumpgate (for example)...
That would at least leave enough people for the camping wolves to eat, as they gain skills over time... if they just remove the option I think it is a bad idea ...
Fire walk with me |
Gravedancer
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Posted - 2003.08.28 22:37:00 -
[25]
Boy am I glad my corp has a sizable fleet of battleships and blackbirds. Looks like were going to need them if we plan to ever get back to our forward bases again.
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Noctoz
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Posted - 2003.08.28 22:38:00 -
[26]
Well do you really think you should be able to just take your inys and miningships and go out into 0.0 space? I think this is a big misinterpretation of how the EVE world is supposed to be. What you say about profit is perfectly true but what you have to do then is to stay longer and mine more or make a better deal with the mercenaries or maybe even pay the pirates the toll they require. There are ample oppportunities. Also it's fully possible to run a blockade with a well setup indy ship. It's not 100% safe but as said before, 0.0 travel is not supposed to be that. If you want no pirates and no pvp then stay in empire space. ------------------ NoctoZ Black Reign Curse Alliance |
Fusco T
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Posted - 2003.08.29 00:09:00 -
[27]
""Well do you really think you should be able to just take your inys and miningships and go out into 0.0 space? I think this is a big misinterpretation of how the EVE world is supposed to be.""
Why are there asteroid belts in these sectors if they weren't meant to be mined? Now you're confusing me.
""What you say about profit is perfectly true but what you have to do then is to stay longer and mine more or make a better deal with the mercenaries or maybe even pay the pirates the toll they require. There are ample oppportunities.""
Ok you know as well as I that "pirates" are the rarest breed in eve and griefer/PK'rs is what we are talking here. I pay you and you destroy me anyway.
""Also it's fully possible to run a blockade with a well setup indy ship. It's not 100% safe but as said before, 0.0 travel is not supposed to be that.""
Actually no it won't be possible and depending on what X is that TomB elluded to could be impossible for ANY loadout.
""If you want no pirates and no pvp then stay in empire space.""
You got to this conclusion how?
Actually I PvP quite a bit.
I am against travel nerfs and making blockades impossible to get through or around. I am also against them throwing away all the work to make the bookmarks I have.
Travel is part of my business I have invested HEAVY hours into streamlining it a bit. Now through all that hard work they are gonna say bang your like everyone else now deal with it.
There are other ways to increase the danger of 0.0 and if they wanted to have BMs not work all the time then jump me into a random spot everytime. Solved.
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Noctoz
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Posted - 2003.08.29 00:25:00 -
[28]
"""Well do you really think you should be able to just take your inys and miningships and go out into 0.0 space? I think this is a big misinterpretation of how the EVE world is supposed to be.""
Why are there asteroid belts in these sectors if they weren't meant to be mined? Now you're confusing me."
These asteorid belts are meanth for people who can protect themselves. You are supposed to have good escort here to mine be safe. I know many corporations put a huge effort into miningoperations out in this dangerous space. This is a classic risk and reward situation.
"""What you say about profit is perfectly true but what you have to do then is to stay longer and mine more or make a better deal with the mercenaries or maybe even pay the pirates the toll they require. There are ample oppportunities.""
Ok you know as well as I that "pirates" are the rarest breed in eve and griefer/PK'rs is what we are talking here. I pay you and you destroy me anyway. "
We will require you to pay a toll depending on what you area carrying but IF you pay we will not destroy you. If we did pod people anyway nobody whould pay and then we whoudl never get easy money. I don't find it that entertaining to kill defenceless industrials.
"""Also it's fully possible to run a blockade with a well setup indy ship. It's not 100% safe but as said before, 0.0 travel is not supposed to be that.""
Actually no it won't be possible and depending on what X is that TomB elluded to could be impossible for ANY loadout."
Yes it's possible. I have spent MANY hours hunting people so believe me it IS possible. You just can't expect it to be as easy as wapring in on top of the gate.
"""If you want no pirates and no pvp then stay in empire space.""
You got to this conclusion how?
Actually I PvP quite a bit.
I am against travel nerfs and making blockades impossible to get through or around. I am also against them throwing away all the work to make the bookmarks I have.
Travel is part of my business I have invested HEAVY hours into streamlining it a bit. Now through all that hard work they are gonna say bang your like everyone else now deal with it."
Well you can still bookmark strategic possitions just outside the border. That will increase your chances a lot.
"There are other ways to increase the danger of 0.0 and if they wanted to have BMs not work all the time then jump me into a random spot everytime. Solved."
No there really isn't any good way to make it dangerous with the current BM warping and no, warping to a random spot is nto a very good sollution. ------------------ NoctoZ Black Reign Curse Alliance |
Indigo Seqi
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Posted - 2003.08.29 00:34:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Indigo Seqi on 29/08/2003 00:42:48 I heard someone say:
"If you're mad people have bookmarks for your gates pirates, then try moving around"
This sounds very viable for a non pirate ofcourse, but what people often don't understand is that stargates have to qualify to certain criteria to be viable for piracy.
First off, there are TONS of stargates that are INNATELY insta jump from all directions. And even if they're not, most of the time they are from at least one specific direction. Obviously, a stargate should not have innate instajump if you want to pirate there. And even more, you want a stargate where people warp in at a decent distance, so you have your time to do the talking and the dealing. If we don't have this time for any reason, we just shoot immediatly, hoping we can at least get something valueable from the equipment/cargo the pilot was carrying. But this is NOT good for business and often NOT profitable.
Secondly, as a pirate you want to have traffic. Traffic doesnt come in system "N1-GTY" in region "BFG0-G". You need a system that is a chokepoint for one or more busy systems/regions and does not have too many gates.
Third, you want a system where no other pirates are active. It's simply not good for business.
And last but not least, you need a system with a low security rating.
As you can see, these demands rule out a whole lot of systems in our current universe. And it is simple common sense, you don't have to be a pirate to see this if you spend more than 5 seconds thinking about it. So please don't tell me to "move around", because that isn't as simple as it sounds.
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PropanElgen
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Posted - 2003.08.29 00:34:00 -
[30]
Edited by: PropanElgen on 29/08/2003 00:37:31 CCP must have completely lost their minds.
Either that or the whole Dev crew are Pirate fanbois
All the angels and the puny men of god looked away... Frightened to death by the evil that was born on that day!
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