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Porter Hadlend
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Posted - 2006.02.02 05:43:00 -
[1]
A couple of corpmates and I went out and did a 5/10 complex today. I brought my new Cyclone fitted like this:
5 x 220mm Autocannons
3 x Medium Nosferatus
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1 x 10MN Afterburner
1 x Large Shield Booster
1 x Large Shield Extender
1 x EM Hardener
1 x Thermal Hardener
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2 x Gyrostabalizer
2 x Power Diagnostic System
It performed admirably. However I did not have a chance to compare the 220mm ACs vs other ACs such as the 425, which is what I was initially thinking of using.
I can use either with no fitting problems.
It was a rogue drone complex, and I found the 220s still missed the drones a bunch. Maybe more because they are drones.. but still frustrating.
I'm curious to hear the debate for both cannons as there seemed to be some dissention among the ranks in the Cyclone setup thread.
Anyone, thoughts?
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Porter Hadlend
Round 2. |
Lijah Valencourt
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Posted - 2006.02.02 07:13:00 -
[2]
I'd stick with the 220's. They track better than 425's, do about the same dps and are easier to fit :)
I think mostly it comes down to personal preference though.
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Porter Hadlend
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Posted - 2006.02.02 07:17:00 -
[3]
Yeah I think I'd rather stick with the 220s, although I'm wondering for Rogue Drone missions if I would benefit taking off the extender and plopping on a webbifier.
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Porter Hadlend
Round 2. |
Jordania
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Posted - 2006.02.02 07:51:00 -
[4]
If your tank will hold against the rats still then sure fit a web.
Also for tiny enemies like drones you may want to go one step further and fit Dual 180mm AC's much better tracking.
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OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.02.02 09:29:00 -
[5]
220 > 425 imo...
In fact, the same goes for all AUTOCANNONS:
150 > 200, 220 > 425, dual 650 > 800 (not sure on the 650s tho :o )
Then for artillery....
280 > 250, 720 > 650, 1400 > ... cant remember atm, but 1400's the biggest.
Odd trend lol
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.02.02 10:28:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: OrangeAfroMan
220 > 425 imo...
In fact, the same goes for all AUTOCANNONS:
150 > 200, 220 > 425, dual 650 > 800 (not sure on the 650s tho :o )
Then for artillery....
280 > 250, 720 > 650, 1400 > ... cant remember atm, but 1400's the biggest.
Odd trend lol
pound per pound, the 200mm ones are good, compared with the 425mm and the 800mm.
however it's true that the hi-tier AC's should have a boost in the clipsize, wich imho it's where they are lacking.
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Originally by: Abdalion
Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
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ian666
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Posted - 2006.02.02 10:57:00 -
[7]
Hi,
220 VC T2 Vs 425 T2.
The 425 Start off with a better DP, but if you have decent skills and say fit them to a Vagabond then once you get the firing rate down the 220 VC Take over in DP and become the better option due to there rate of fire.
220 VC I would use and like someone said they also are about 30 PG less per Turret.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.02.02 11:08:00 -
[8]
220s are better than 425s in general. As they're better in general, it makes them better for PvP.
PvE is a whole different kettle of fish though. Weapons at different ranges, low dps-high tracking weapons, etc, can all play a part in a good PvE setup. It's all about the right tools for the job.
As someone above suggested, try 180s. Drones are generally very small, and tracking becomes more important to DPS than Dmg/ROF when targets are hard to hit. Also, tracking enhancers will, to a point, give you more benefit than Gyros. Depending on your skills and your style of play.
Incidentally, drop the extender and add an amp. Amps give you a lot more bang for a lot less buck, in addition to not having a sig radius penalty meaning you'll take somewhat less damage in the first place.
The Eve Guild Wars Project! |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2006.02.02 11:10:00 -
[9]
Similar dps, of which 220mm may still be as good or better due to faster tracking
Easyer to fit than 425mm
Longer lasting clip in the 220mm <- my main reason
Theres simply no reason to go with the 425mm other than to squeeze a few % extra dmg against large targets where tracking is less of a factor.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.02 11:15:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 02/02/2006 11:15:57
I always notice a much larger DPS (talking hundreds within a 60 second time period per gun, not a different of 10 or 12 damage) when using 425mm's against similar class targets, such as cruisers and battlecruisers. The 220mm's simply don't do enough damage output, nor DoT, for me to break certain player tanks.
220mm's are great for faster, smaller ship classes, but if you can fit the 425mm's and can web your target, I've never had a problem since leaving the 220mms
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FoRGyL
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Posted - 2006.02.02 11:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 02/02/2006 11:15:57
I always notice a much larger DPS (talking hundreds within a 60 second time period per gun, not a different of 10 or 12 damage) when using 425mm's against similar class targets, such as cruisers and battlecruisers. The 220mm's simply don't do enough damage output, nor DoT, for me to break certain player tanks.
220mm's are great for faster, smaller ship classes, but if you can fit the 425mm's and can web your target, I've never had a problem since leaving the 220mms
AS u pirate you often choose your fights and the Dmgchock gives a very nice feeling and effect when ransoming as the opponets ship are in armor before his lock hits.
But I will again word up for a raise in clipsize o/
Would be nice not to die while reloading!
-out-
*********************************************************
Pay or don't!
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Apertotes
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Posted - 2006.02.02 11:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 02/02/2006 11:15:57
I always notice a much larger DPS (talking hundreds within a 60 second time period per gun, not a different of 10 or 12 damage) when using 425mm's against similar class targets, such as cruisers and battlecruisers. The 220mm's simply don't do enough damage output, nor DoT, for me to break certain player tanks.
220mm's are great for faster, smaller ship classes, but if you can fit the 425mm's and can web your target, I've never had a problem since leaving the 220mms
i think that is the trick, 425mm + web.
Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.02.02 11:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 02/02/2006 11:15:57
I always notice a much larger DPS (talking hundreds within a 60 second time period per gun, not a different of 10 or 12 damage) when using 425mm's against similar class targets, such as cruisers and battlecruisers. The 220mm's simply don't do enough damage output, nor DoT, for me to break certain player tanks.
220mm's are great for faster, smaller ship classes, but if you can fit the 425mm's and can web your target, I've never had a problem since leaving the 220mms
And then you fight someone with a real tank, take into account even a single reload, and the 220s come out on top on DPS.
Not to mention that 220s dont *need* a webber, where 425s do.
Also not to mention that 220s can actually hit frigates decently and 425s never do.
The Eve Guild Wars Project! |
Sun Ra
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Posted - 2006.02.02 12:15:00 -
[14]
The other problem with the top tier autocannons are the ammo clip is very small, not good on a gun that has a rof of 2-3s
Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas' |
Lexor SLice
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Posted - 2006.02.02 15:07:00 -
[15]
just use a frigate......
for 5/10's i use a wolf, works like a charm
ESE is Recruiting skilled Miners and Pvp'ers!
Proud Member of the FIX alliance....
Originally by: O |
Porter Hadlend
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Posted - 2006.02.02 15:55:00 -
[16]
The debate wasn't so much the viability of the ship or practicality of it in the complex.. but rather just how to optimize the ship period.
I'm relatively certain I would rather have the larger clip size and better tracking, although I can appreciate where the dissenting opinion is coming from. Breaking a tough tank can be hard when you're hitting for a small amount of damage. The consolation I had was that I was hitting for that small damage every 1.6 seconds or so on all guns.
I suppose the debate is really about 180s vs 220s then. I find in most scenarios the 220s do fine without a webifier, however I'm curious what some people have been doing to counter small fast targets.
Also, Shield Boost Amp vs Shield Extender. I've been using the Extender, probably because a part of me wants the same tank my Ferox has, although there is a shocking damage increase over a missile wielding Ferox.
Consequently, with many possible variations on a theme, I'm curious what others have thought in regards to dealing with pesky little folk.
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Porter Hadlend
Round 2. |
Porter Hadlend
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Posted - 2006.02.02 17:23:00 -
[17]
Another thought I had, probably less of a good idea, but still...
I was considering putting some Shield Maintenance Bot I's in my drone bay. 5 of them going, repairing 25hp each is 125hp, which in addition to any shield boosting I do, would be beneficial..until they got shot down of course.
But they aren't that expensive. I haven't seen them in action yet.
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Porter Hadlend
Round 2. |
turnschuh
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Posted - 2006.02.02 17:24:00 -
[18]
800mm > 650mm
at least on my phoon
about 15-20% more dmg
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.02 17:38:00 -
[19]
Quote:
And then you fight someone with a real tank, take into account even a single reload, and the 220s come out on top on DPS.
That's certainly not how my math works out.
EMP M = ~22 damage
425mm = 1.925 x 22 = 42.35
220mm = 1.65 x 22 = 36.3
Rounds held of EMP:
425mm = 40
220mm = 80
Amount of time between reloads:
425mm = 150 seconds (2.5 minutes)
220mm = 270.4 seconds (4.5 minutes)
Damage per clip:
425mm = 42.35 x 40 = 1694
220mm = 36.3 x 80 = 2904
Damage done in equal time, including 425mm reload:
425mm in 270.4 seconds (260.4 after reload) = 2940.784
220mm in 270.4 secibds (no reload time) = 2904
In the same amount of time, reload time included and without any sort of damage mods, no skills included, still has the 425mm's out on top with damage over time. With damage mods, skills, and similar that difference grows farther and farther. The key here, and remember.. I'm a pirate, is to kill my target quickly. Most of my kills last 2-3 minutes, rarely 4-5, so the extra clip isn't worth it because I need the fast, immediate damage. Quote:
Not to mention that 220s dont *need* a webber, where 425s do.
I don't -need- the webber, but it's nice regardless to not have my enemy run. It improving upon tracking is a nice side effect. Quote:
Also not to mention that 220s can actually hit frigates decently and 425s never do.
A web+2 medium nos+425mm's bring down tech 2 frigates incredibly fast. I've done it before.
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.02.02 19:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
large ammount of numbers
well, HI-grade AC's still need increased clip
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Originally by: Abdalion
Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
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Porter Hadlend
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Posted - 2006.02.02 19:48:00 -
[21]
Any thoughts on the other things I posted?
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Porter Hadlend
Round 2. |
OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.02.02 20:44:00 -
[22]
However that doesnt really factor in how with a faster fire rate and better tracking you get better hits more often and better chance for a wrecking shot....
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.02 20:55:00 -
[23]
Originally by: OrangeAfroMan
However that doesnt really factor in how with a faster fire rate and better tracking you get better hits more often and better chance for a wrecking shot....
It did factor in RoF completely, thus how I calculated how long it would take for them to run out of ammo. RoF is already in that formula, so that doesn't concern me. The 425mm's still hit harder over time and intially than the 220mm's and their RoF.
People complain about the tracking but I never have problems and very rarely miss a shot. I don't even orbit, I set approach to my target and look at him dead in the face, tanking the damage completely. Web helps too, but tracking itself does not dictate a wrecking shot, and I would never base my ship's capability on wrecking shots because of their rarity and lack of consistancy.
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OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.02.02 20:59:00 -
[24]
Yeah i know you factored in fire rates, but i mean with the better tracking you get more "excellent" or whatever shots (depending on what you're fighting) than with 425s, potentially
And yes i agree, wreckers are certainly not something to count on.
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M00dy
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Posted - 2006.02.02 21:06:00 -
[25]
Tracking only dictates IF you hit. How well you hit is some other formula that no one knows about.
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Porter Hadlend
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Posted - 2006.02.02 21:09:00 -
[26]
So on a loadout with a web you'd do:
5x 425
3x nos
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1x web
1x ab
1x large booster
2x invulnerability field
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Gyros x pdus?
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Porter Hadlend
Round 2. |
OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.02.02 21:15:00 -
[27]
According to Famine (hopefully he wont be mad for me kinda quoting him :o ) in an example on the Claw, he got pretty much the same DPS with 2 gyros as he did with 2 tracking mods...
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.02 21:15:00 -
[28]
Quote:
So on a loadout with a web you'd do:
I have no idea. I fit the 425mms to my maller. Can't offer cyclone advice.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.02 21:24:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 02/02/2006 21:24:57
Quote:
but i mean with the better tracking you get more "excellent" or whatever shots (depending on what you're fighting) than with 425s, potentially
I fight primarily cruiser-class and larger, so the tracking isn't ever an issue. My maller would simply nosx2 the frigate that is attempting to break a 1xmedium and 1xsmall armor repairer tank, sending him on his way.
If you are looking to fight primarily frigates/destroyers/drones, then 220mm would be a better choice for their tracking, even if they hit for less. But if you are expecting larger ships, that additional damage of the 425mms helps.
So I get where you are coming from, and completely respect your opinion  We are just thinking about two different types of targets.
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OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.02.02 21:54:00 -
[30]
^ couldnt agree more, good call
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