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Stryker Zee
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Posted - 2003.08.29 12:23:00 -
[1]
"Time is the flame in which men burn."
Or so it is said. In this simple comment is contained the crux of the matter. Time. Those of you who have unlimited time to play EVE (or nearly unlimited), it makes perfect sense to remove BM's to gates and the super-highway system. For those who like myself have a full-time job, and whose playing time is limited to only a few hours per day, we WILL seek other forms of entertainment that aren't vast timesinks.
Think of it like this. I have 2-4 hours to play now at best. I load my ship up, make a 30+ jump trip in an indy, unload my ship, and my time for the day is gone. Is this fun? I would tend to say most folks would say no (he11 no in my case).
But this is what it would be like if the super-highway and bookmarks were removed. I see people saying the super-highway has killed the economy. What do you think the effect of losing 1/4, 1/3, or even 1/2 the player base would do to the economy? Same with the BM's.
Anything that creates an excessive timesink will effectly remove a portion of the game population. It is a matter of logical use of one's time. Do I want to spend it doing something fun, or do I want to use it doing something that I consider to be an unnecessary waste of time. Get real people, it has nothing to do with being a carebear. It's all about having fun. And spending all your time travelling from warp exit to gate isn't fun.
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sutty
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Posted - 2003.08.29 12:40:00 -
[2]
if you cant make 30 jumps in 30mins~ with ab's on there is somthing wrong :)
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Ashton Black
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Posted - 2003.08.29 13:05:00 -
[3]
Well said that man. However, not being in the care of bears, I have read many different solutions to this BM problem. The one that would seem to be the "lesser of all evils" is restrict bookmarks to 0.5+ sec systems and above. That way you could still move about with speed but if you want the real profit you have to enter a timesink.
I have also read about the interdictor module for the pie ratz which could drop ppl out of warp within say 20-30km. Nice idea but only if using it counts as an offensive action 'cos otherwise it could be open to abuse.
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Berged
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Posted - 2003.08.29 13:31:00 -
[4]
The fact it was taking a full 2 minutes to tune into sub space frequency at each gate today doesnt help that fact. Major lag issue there.
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SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.08.29 13:34:00 -
[5]
why did you use two 1's in Hell?
what the hell...
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WhiteDwarf
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Posted - 2003.08.29 13:41:00 -
[6]
Edited by: WhiteDwarf on 29/08/2003 13:42:56
"if you cant make 30 jumps in 30mins~ with ab's on there is somthing wrong :)"
30 jumps
35k from gate - 14k jump distance = 21k
21k x 30 gates = 630k x 1000 = 630,000m
Bestower with 4 basic cargo expanders and 4 afterburner I's = 300m/s top speed.
It is not a good idea to travel without a sheild booster in a Bestower, so only 3 AB's = 230 m/s (the cheesy gate NPC's can take your shields down rather quickly and get into your hull and armor)
630,000 / 230 m/s = 2739 seconds = 45 minutes of additional travel time added onto how long it takes you to warp between gates.
Ok, so even if you did use 4 AB's that is 630,000 / 300 m/s = 2100 seconds = 35 minutes of ADDITIONAL time.
No way I can see how it would only take 30 minutes for the entire trip when you include the time it takes to warp, loading times after you jump into a system, and time it takes your ship to engage warp.
30 jump trip in a Bestower with 3 AB's and a sheild booster, 4 expanders and no gate BM's is about a (lets say it takes 30 seconds to warp between each gate 30 sec x 30 gates = 15 mins)
45mins + 15 mins = 1 hour minimum travel time.
75% of that time is staring at the gate, waiting to get close enough to it to jump.
BAD
"Trust No One" |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2003.08.29 13:53:00 -
[7]
Isn't this the crux of the problem for ALL MMOGs, not just EVE? They're all timesinks, and people who can't deal with those should just not play MMOGs. At least with EVE you can train your skills offline without having to be at your computer. I haven't played a MMOG yet that didn't have a timesink of some kind worked into major game mechanics, travel time being the one that you ALWAYS see.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:11:00 -
[8]
Travel is pretty boring.
If CCP could find a way to allow people to travel fast through empty regions, but make it impossible to insta jump past people blockading, I think they'd have hit a good balance.
I like the idea of letting people pick a 'range' to drop out from the gate at, and giving pirates a skill they can use to somehow hack into the gate and change the minimum range to something bigger.
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WhiteDwarf
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:11:00 -
[9]
"and people who can't deal with those should just not play MMOGs"
Great solution Bud
So what you propose will knock the number of subscriptions down by... oh... say... 75%?
Have fun playing with the other 24/7 players, lol.
Talk about a niche game...
"Trust No One" |
Nicholas Marshal
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:13:00 -
[10]
Why do people travel around so much anyway ? I have been in the same system for the last month now (with only very infrequent trips to get skills etc).
Make a home system, and stay there ffs.
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Master Scy
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:16:00 -
[11]
 Quote:
Isn't this the crux of the problem for ALL MMOGs, not just EVE? They're all timesinks, and people who can't deal with those should just not play MMOGs. At least with EVE you can train your skills offline without having to be at your computer. I haven't played a MMOG yet that didn't have a timesink of some kind worked into major game mechanics, travel time being the one that you ALWAYS see.
There's only one other game I ever played that was based on timesinks as much as Eve: Earth and Beyond.
-----------------------------
You think Marco Polo said
"Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ?
-Indigo Seqi
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Jericho
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:25:00 -
[12]
Please lock this thread or remove it from the forums... is it wasting precious space. I mean, that space could be used for one of Molly's eliquent flames... In fact, there is not enough of Molly on the boards. I would like to see 2 posts per hour on how CCP is making Molly's life a living hell. Two posts per hour on her 14.5 hour play day...
2 x 14.5 = 29
29 entertaining, yet informative posts which have a hint of intelligence in a "between the lines" sort of way.
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Klydor
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:32:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Klydor on 29/08/2003 14:33:00
Profit should not be easy nor quick.
There should be blockades that are almost impossible for any other than combat pilots to run. These blockades should be broken by fleets or other pirates etc. Picture real life, you heading to a port in your ship and meet 4 Battleships and assorted destroyers. How much chance would you have to reach the port alive in your big slow transport ship?
Now the problem with eve is that when an offensive force turns up to break this blockade, the existing blockade warp away and are untouchable. This I beleive will change in time.
If a blockade is in place then profit into that region is cut, pilots will have to pay combat pilots to break the blockades otherwise prices in the regions will rise as top minerals become less common etc etc
Yes removing instajumps will hit a lot of traders, but it will also allow fighter pilots to seek retribution on pirates and make pirating a more dangerous occupation.
Really gates should take time to initiate, they shouldn't be instant.
Docking should take time you should be put in a holding pattern waiting for your turn. These are items you find in sci fi films/series that allow combat to occur and make space dangerous.
In fact if a battle is raging outside a station would you allow pilots to dock and risk missiles been fired at the docking pilot damaging your station and its occupants?
Ok so holding patterns for docking would make the game a little more boring for some. But if the time was something small like 10 seconds then its not a great problem. But look at the benefits, pirates would not be able to run off to a station and instadock when a hostile force tries to track them down.
These bookmark changes will be as much a disadvantage to pirates as they will be to traders.
Once the warp invulnerabilty problem is solved combat will become a lot more fun, pirates will finally be in a dangerous occupation.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:34:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Edited by: WhiteDwarf on 29/08/2003 13:42:56
"if you cant make 30 jumps in 30mins~ with ab's on there is somthing wrong :)"
30 jumps
35k from gate - 14k jump distance = 21k
21k x 30 gates = 630k x 1000 = 630,000m
Bestower with 4 basic cargo expanders and 4 afterburner I's = 300m/s top speed.
It is not a good idea to travel without a sheild booster in a Bestower, so only 3 AB's = 230 m/s (the cheesy gate NPC's can take your shields down rather quickly and get into your hull and armor)
630,000 / 230 m/s = 2739 seconds = 45 minutes of additional travel time added onto how long it takes you to warp between gates.
Ok, so even if you did use 4 AB's that is 630,000 / 300 m/s = 2100 seconds = 35 minutes of ADDITIONAL time.
No way I can see how it would only take 30 minutes for the entire trip when you include the time it takes to warp, loading times after you jump into a system, and time it takes your ship to engage warp.
30 jump trip in a Bestower with 3 AB's and a sheild booster, 4 expanders and no gate BM's is about a (lets say it takes 30 seconds to warp between each gate 30 sec x 30 gates = 15 mins)
45mins + 15 mins = 1 hour minimum travel time.
75% of that time is staring at the gate, waiting to get close enough to it to jump.
BAD
See now did you ever consider that more cargo expanders or the Bestower might not be suitable for longer trips or for hazardous ones? I've gotten a Hoarder up to around 500m/s with the ability to turn on a dime with only 2 ABs and still keeping my shield booster.
Even the industrials may have roles defined for them if you look at them carefully...
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Draco Darkmatter
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:39:00 -
[15]
I've said it befor and I say it one last time as I walk out the door.
Fix the dam problems, don't try and limit game play to correct fro a creative way players have discovered to circumvent the problem.
You guys at CCP have been spending too much effort in adding new features to either are just stop gap attempts at fixing thing that small persentages of players feel are problems.
The main issue is TIME. Lots of us don;t want to waste what little TIME we have staring at our ship mining, warping, getting destroyed while we wait for it to respond to our commands, etc.
Eve has great potential, unfortunatly CCP dosen't see what that potential is. The game is designed to function with a much larger player base. We do not have that, and that is why many of the systems like trade and the economy are broken, not because people are using the highway gates, or bookmarks. There is no one thing causing this game to slowly breakdown.
I'll check back in a few months to see if CCP has pulled it's colective head out of it's collective ass and come up with a few good changes. But I will not be suprised if I discover that the servers have been truned off and the comunity been told "Sorry we just can't afford to loose any more money on this venture."
So thanks for all the hype that was never implimented and have a nice day. I should have spent my money elsware, like on food and clothing. At least they have a use. Well ok I can still use my Eve CD as a coaster like the AOHell discs.
"Reality is just a myth...
...or so they tell me." |
Prev Mooney
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:51:00 -
[16]
I gotta agree with Nicholas. Complaining about something that takes a long time that you have to do is one thing... Complaining and screaming "The Sky is Falling" about something you choose to do is another thing entirely.
In this particular case I feel it would be more worth your time to complain about the slow speed of my Mining Laser 1's. Criminy! It takes an hour to fill up my containers with that those things ;).
Have a nice weekend...and find a shorter trade route! ;)
-Prev
Huttah! |
Indigo Seqi
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:55:00 -
[17]
Everquest, the greatest and uberest timesink game of them all is also the biggest MMO out there atm. Would you really prefer having to "exp" for skillpoints again for exmaple? Compared to EQ, EVE's traveltimes aren't all that damn bad.
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WhiteDwarf
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:57:00 -
[18]
Edited by: WhiteDwarf on 29/08/2003 15:02:00
"See now did you ever consider that more cargo expanders or the Bestower might not be suitable for longer trips or for hazardous ones? I've gotten a Hoarder up to around 500m/s with the ability to turn on a dime with only 2 ABs and still keeping my shield booster"
Ok, so now I spend 58% of my time staring at gates, and I can haul less, meaning I have to make more trips.
Timesink still adds up the same dude
And it will still drive away subscribers.
If I sit down to play for 3 hours a night, and I'm running a mining op, how can staring at gates for 2.25 hours of the 3 I play be considered fun?
CCP is the one making me go 74 jumps to deliver good ore, I've done the strip mining deal in empire space, that gets boring and takes away ore from the noobs, and produces no megacyte which is required for manufacturing anything of value.
I'm doing my part in adapting as the greifers scream that all us "carebears" should do, and now I get nerfed for finding a way to adapt?
What a joke!
"Trust No One" |
Nicholas Marshal
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Posted - 2003.08.29 15:00:00 -
[19]
FFs people. EVE is meant to be like a real Universe. Travelling takes time (its true !).
If you find it dull, do another Eve job. Or just sod off and die, and do us all a favour.
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Endureth
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Posted - 2003.08.29 15:22:00 -
[20]
The problem with EVE's timesinks compared to the timesinks in other games is simple. Other games have you doing something at least 'interesting' to spend you're time on. Take DAoC for example. The trips on the horses was a timesink but it didn't sink that much time. The real time sink was killing monsters and that's pretty much what you wanted to do in the game anyway.
I don't 'want' to spend hours traveling the galaxy, I 'have' to. Where is the fun in that? There is none.
-E
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.08.29 15:24:00 -
[21]
Quote:
"Time is the flame in which men burn."
Or so it is said. In this simple comment is contained the crux of the matter. Time. Those of you who have unlimited time to play EVE (or nearly unlimited), it makes perfect sense to remove BM's to gates and the super-highway system. For those who like myself have a full-time job, and whose playing time is limited to only a few hours per day, we WILL seek other forms of entertainment that aren't vast timesinks.
Think of it like this. I have 2-4 hours to play now at best. I load my ship up, make a 30+ jump trip in an indy, unload my ship, and my time for the day is gone. Is this fun? I would tend to say most folks would say no (he11 no in my case).
But this is what it would be like if the super-highway and bookmarks were removed. I see people saying the super-highway has killed the economy. What do you think the effect of losing 1/4, 1/3, or even 1/2 the player base would do to the economy? Same with the BM's.
Anything that creates an excessive timesink will effectly remove a portion of the game population. It is a matter of logical use of one's time. Do I want to spend it doing something fun, or do I want to use it doing something that I consider to be an unnecessary waste of time. Get real people, it has nothing to do with being a carebear. It's all about having fun. And spending all your time travelling from warp exit to gate isn't fun.
Can I have your stuff when you go?
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.29 15:32:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Ok, so now I spend 58% of my time staring at gates, and I can haul less, meaning I have to make more trips.
Timesink still adds up the same dude
And it will still drive away subscribers.
If I sit down to play for 3 hours a night, and I'm running a mining op, how can staring at gates for 2.25 hours of the 3 I play be considered fun?
CCP is the one making me go 74 jumps to deliver good ore, I've done the strip mining deal in empire space, that gets boring and takes away ore from the noobs, and produces no megacyte which is required for manufacturing anything of value.
I'm doing my part in adapting as the greifers scream that all us "carebears" should do, and now I get nerfed for finding a way to adapt?
What a joke!
Yes, timesinks still add up. Lack of space objects like refining platforms and stations make mining Bistot and Arkanor stupifyingly time consuming and manpower intensive. But that's what you chose to do. You picked being the Director of Mining. Personally, I'd suggest you kick the Director of Transportation in the ass and tell him to pick up the pace.
That or take the not-so-subtle hint that not everything is meant for everybody. My corp has yet to attempt mining in deep space. We completely lack the manpower to make it cost effective. Yet we can still manufacture. If I ever had the time to concentrate on it, I'm positive we could do quite well manufacturing even with our current limitations and the market decay.
I view mining as a necessary evil. As such, I do it only when necessary. To devote my entire playtime to mining when it has the least amount of interactivity in the game would make me eat a bullet. I'd serously suggest you look into alternative means for mineral aquisition and take the same view: mine only when necessary. Most people drastically overinflate when its necessary.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
WhiteDwarf
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Posted - 2003.08.29 15:41:00 -
[23]
"I'd suggest you kick the Director of Transportation in the ass and tell him to pick up the pace"
LOL, I guess that would be me. How do I kick myself in the ass exactly?
"Trust No One" |
SuicideFred
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Posted - 2003.08.29 15:46:00 -
[24]
The players of Eve are using bookmarks to build roads.
Road building is part of every civilization's climb to greatness.
To destroy the roads will sink Eve back into the dark age of pirates/griefers.
Leave the road builders alone.
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Athren Soulsteal
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Posted - 2003.08.29 16:04:00 -
[25]
First off CCP has to get out of the mentality that they have to provide a living for lazy players.
Do miners demand that the roids come to their home system, not just scord but bisk and ark. "Whaa thereÆs no ore here you have to make ore come to my system so I can mine it!" Of course not.
Do Traders demand that all the sales be in their system? "Whaa CCP you need to make one station sell me robotics and make the other station in the system buy it! (at enormous profit).
Do bounty hunters demand that those they are hunting be funneled to them? "Whaa CCP you need to make everyone with a bounty come to my system so I can make some isk! ... ItÆs the same for every other occupation.
So WTH does CCP fill they need to spoon feed pirates. If a miner runs out of roids he moves on. If a Trader can not find any good he moves on. Bounty hunters sure as heck do not sit in a system but move around. So why should pirates get special treatment, if they can find victims at bases or fields then move or do something new.
Stop the Pirate welfare program CCP.
1.Add more highways! No place in empire space should be more than 10 min from any other place. (And forget the BS that some people are trying to convince you that itÆs bad for the market. Anyone with any usable gray matter knows that the larger the market the better it is for everyone (Forget lining the few greedy peopleÆs pockets)
2.Enable gate to gate jumping. Since EVE does not have a *transport system then there is no reason to drop anyone farther than 25k from the gate. Crossing a system should take no longer than 2 min total. Have the player come out at the gate to the system they came from and jump to the gate to system they are going to but exit at 25k.
*Transport system:
Here is an idea, remove warping from ships that do not have jump drives. Instead replace it with a transit system. What you do is have a mass mover every 1 au set up like a magnetic train system. 2 gate posts, 1 on right for one direction one on left for the other. You simply fly into the gate and you are pulled along at warp speed to the end. Start the transport system at 1 gate and have it go to and exchange, there have the system go to the other gate(s) and stations.
Add the ability to disable a transporter for 2 min but put guns on them so as soon as someone attacks them they start shooting back (not the ubber guns but enough dmg that the can not just be keep totally disabled)
Now we have a system that if any corp wants to actually put some effort in can disrupt an enemy convoy. But letÆs add 1 more thing to the mix. Instead of having the cops sitting at a gate have them run a patrol pattern. This allows the freelancers to wait and follow the patrol for safety but it also would give pirates a window to ply their trade. Say the patrol circuit takes 15 min, well that gives the players 13 min to disrupt and move to safety. (This will actually add the risk they are always quoting).
Ah but with out warp how can you move out to the fields from the transport system? Simple, make AB x speed but disables weapons as all energy is being diverted to drives and make WMD actually be MWD 1au a sec.
 What would this do, it would make travel fast. It would allow for those in corp wars to disrupt the enemy (PVP) it would allow for pirating but make them actually work for their isk. Stop the pirate welfare and make them put some effort in.
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Cyrus Troy
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Posted - 2003.08.29 16:19:00 -
[26]
This is funny, becuase I was just thinking that people travell around in Eve to fast. I was enjoying the idea of "explorers" at the start of the game. A group of people who spent their whole time online just travelling. Going places and finding things such as a alien ship and taking some tech from it. Finding things that no one else has ever seen, being the first to chart a system. My vision was that once a day, a convoy would travell from Caldari space to Amarr space with trade goods.
My vision was that travell times would be massive, except for some pirates and long haul traders, most people wouldn't be bothered to do because they'd have enough to do where they were.
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cold lazarus
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Posted - 2003.08.29 16:20:00 -
[27]
Here is an idea why not do away with all travel  all you do is select a destination and bingo you are there... but there is no risk involved in that so y not have an random event happen on you quick trip say you get robbed by pirates then the robbed items get given to a player pirate at random so they dont need to camp gates what an idea huh ??? YOU ARE MENT TO TRAVEL ABOUT AND MEET DIFF PEOPLE.PIRATES, TRADERS, MINERS THATS THE FUN OF THE GAME IF YOU CANT SPEND THE TIME DONT DO THE TRIP WAIT UNTILL YOU CAN DO THE TRIP DONT CRY ABOUT HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE YOU DO SOMETHING ELSE INSTEAD 
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Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2003.08.29 16:35:00 -
[28]
If you don't like long travel times don't travel long distances, it's not too hard to understand.
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Athren Soulsteal
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Posted - 2003.08.29 16:39:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Athren Soulsteal on 29/08/2003 16:46:32
Quote:
If you don't like long travel times don't travel long distances, it's not too hard to understand
There you go a soulution.. But to make it work. CCP bring all the ores (rare) back into empire space so we can follow this wise advice
Quote:
Right, that's actually NOT what I said at all. I'm sure the number of people whos brains completely shut down at the notion of non-instantaneous travel in a MMOG is quite a bit less than 75
Have you played any game(s) for very long? Even back in P&P games you were given townportal spells and when you did travel all the GM did was roll to see if you had a chance encounter otherwise travel was NOT A TIMESINK.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2003.08.29 16:39:00 -
[30]
Quote:
"and people who can't deal with those should just not play MMOGs"
Great solution Bud
So what you propose will knock the number of subscriptions down by... oh... say... 75%?
Have fun playing with the other 24/7 players, lol.
Talk about a niche game...
Right, that's actually NOT what I said at all. I'm sure the number of people whos brains completely shut down at the notion of non-instantaneous travel in a MMOG is quite a bit less than 75%.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
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